can you take me?' And my stepfather stayed home that day. So he's like, "No, you can't take her. She needs to walk to work." And I was like, "Well, this is only like my second day. And you know, mom said she was going to take me to work by car. So I had been, like, getting ready and not, you know, I didn't leave, you know, so many hours prior to be at work 'cause I didn't have to walk there. And he's like, "No. That's your problem. You're going to end up walking there. So if you're late that's your fault. That's not our problem at all." So I got upset, and I was like, whatever. So I ended up walking to work. And of course I was late, 'cause I had to walk two miles. And urn, I got fired because it was my like second, third day of work. And uh, they just said—you know, I explained to them exactly what had happened, that I didn't have transportation, and what I just told you. And urn, basically, Ilost my job. So he got upset that I had no responsibilities and ended up saying that, you know, "You need to be kicked out." Which I thought was very absurd and stupid, but those are his rules. He's very strict. Like, he has acertain standard.¶
07:00¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay. Now, you also liked to be out alot. Was he upset about you being out alot?¶
e Um, yes. He got upset about that also. But when I went out, it wasn't like I went out and partied. I just wanted to be with my friends. 'Cause like I said also, when I was with my friends, I put them so much as like my family, that I grew so close to them, that when I'm with my friends, like my close friends, I feel just comfortable and stressful—like, stress-relieved, I guess. Like all my stress is gone. And comfortable.¶
07:36¶
Dr. Kliman: Now again. Following up things that you listed in various questionnaires. You mentioned one time you caught your mother and stepfather having sex. And that seemed to be your first knowledge, or first understanding of sex. Could you explain to me what that reference is?¶
08:08¶
Dr. Kliman: Well, sure.¶
Dr. Kliman: This was at afriend's house?¶
08:38¶
Yeah, well I, I've you know, I mean, don't get me wrong. I've heard of, you know, about sex when I was younger from people. But I was never, you know, knowledged of what is was exactly. And I caught—do you want me to give you the exact scenario of what happened?¶
Um, my stepfather grounded me and put me in my room at one of their friend's houses, like, "Stay here. Don't go anywhere." And I was like, "Okay." So I had to use the restroom, you know, at some point when I was sitting in the room. So I want—¶
Not my friend. Like their friend's. They were watching their house or whatever they¶
¶
3'¶
were doing.¶
Dr. Kliman: I see.¶
Yeah. They were house-sitting. And you know, I had to use the restroom. So I wanted to ask him before, "Can I use the restroom?" 'cause he'd said, "Don't go anywhere." So I walked in the pool room, where they play pool. And she was on the table with her legs open, with no clothes on. And he was on his knees. And it just like really grossed me out. Extremely, ugh, just grossed me out. And um, you know, of course, they were embarrassed. But she, you know, bought me like alittle video for akids. Like, acartoon video that explained sex. And what guys and girls have and stuff like that.¶
09:31¶
Dr. Kliman: So was this oral sex they were having?¶
S Ididn't see them in the act. But you know, she was on the table butt naked. And he was on his knees. So basically it was going to become oral sex I guess.¶
Dr. Kliman: So you didn't see very much of what he was doing?¶
No.¶
Dr. Kliman: But you figured it out at some point.¶
Dr. Kliman: Did you immediately understand?¶
a-Pretty much. They tried to lie to me at first. And say that you know, he was checking her down there 'cause she had a bump or something. Like, uh, cancer or whatever. And I was just like, I'm not stupid. You know, I'm not that unaware of sex. Like, I know about it. I know what happens.¶
10:16¶
Yeah.¶
Dr. Kliman: So they made some effort then to educate you through afilm?¶
Mae Yes.¶
Dr. Kliman: Now, were you very upsetby seeing this event?¶
as. Iwas. Yes.¶
Dr. Kliman: Tell me about your upset¶
alto¶
Ijust felt like, very like. I don't know what it was, but I was very jealous of like, my mom. Not like jealous of her, but like, I didn't like other guys talking to her or touching her. Like, it really made me like, angry inside. Like very angry. Like when they would hold hands and stuff, it made me like, getreally like-¶
4¶
Dr. Kliman: Even if your stepfather held her hand?. ..¶
Yes.¶
Dr. Kliman: Did you become more jealous after that? Or were you already jealous?¶
10:53¶
Dr. Kliman: Was he naked at that time?¶
aldn No.¶
Dr. Kliman: Had you seen him naked at times?¶
Dr. Kliman: So you've never walked in on him and found him in the shower,¶
S No.¶
Dr. Kliman: Or anything like that. You mentioned that your mother suffers from depression and stress.¶
Dr. Kliman: Sure.¶
11:48¶
Iwas jealous before that of like, the holding hands. And I didn't want them to be naked together. I didn't want them to see each other naked. I have no idea why I was like that.... But 1 was. I didn't like guys trying to flirt with her. I was very overprotective of her, I guess. And when I saw that, it just like, like, really grossed me out.¶
No.¶
Yes. She had a really bad childhood. When she was growing up, urn, do you want me to get into that?¶
Basically, her mother, my grandmother, um, had four kids. And basically put men first. And basically found this guy named Dick. And took off with Dick and left all the kids with my mom's father. So there was four babies, like four kids, with my mom's dad. My mom's dad was very lenient, and didn't really care about school, didn't give them any discipline, and didn't care what they did. He had, you know, one of the type of parents that, "Do whatever you want. I don't care." There was no guidelines. And then my mom caught him with another guy. And her older sisters...she's not a twin, but she has aset of twin sisters that are probably like five years older than her. And they used to like, stick her in closets and spray Windex in her eyes, and hit her over the head with the phone, and abuse her, basically. And they've gotten her raped at school. She also got molested by her uncle. And now she's around forty-three to forty-four. Pm really bad with remembering ages. And she has, including me, she has four kids. But I'm never there, because you know, I have my own life. So right now she has three kids. And she also has aone-year-old like 1 do. And she has afour-year-old and anine-year-old. So she¶
just, she stresses out about little stuff and is very like, for instance, I was there yesterday. And my little brother dropped a bowl of cereal all over the floor. And I was like, "Mom,. calm down." 'Cause she just—¶
Dr. Kliman: Gets agitated.¶
13:28¶
S. Very.¶
Dr. Kliman: Let me go back to these abuse experiences that your mother had, if I understand them. First, she was abandoned by—¶
- 111 By her mom.
Dr. Kliman: By her mom. Do you think it was a total abandonment?¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay. But then your mom caught your grandfather, that her father.¶
S Her real father.¶
Dr. Kliman: With another guy.¶
Age" Yes.¶
Dr. Kliman: And how did she catch him?¶
Dr. Kliman: Well, were they having sex?¶
S Mmhmm.¶
Dr. Kliman: And what did she see?¶
14:09¶
S She said she saw everything. Like him, I think he, I don't know who was on who, but a guy and a guy. And she just freaked out, 'cause she never even knew about stuff like that, you know.¶
Dr. Kliman: How old was she?¶
From what my mom says, it was. And then my grandmother of course always defends herself.¶
She said she went down to the basement and another guy was with him.¶
She said she was young. I cannot give you a specific age 'cause I have no idea. Um, she was probably anywhere from around eight to fifteen years of age, I have no idea. Honestly, I don't know. But I know she was young.¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay. You mentioned also, I think you mentioned, that she was raped in school.¶
S0¶
15:10¶
Dr. Kliman: sis ... .._ During her childhood, or?¶
Dr. Kliman: How old do you think she was when closet effort at raping her occurred?¶
a¶
Dr. Kliman: And did the rape actually occur? That her sisters paid a guy to do?¶
Dr. Kliman: But you do think she's been raped three times, according to what she's told you?¶
a¶
16:17¶
Dr. Kliman: Which uncle is that?¶
S¶
Dr. Kliman: Pm glad.¶
S.¶
Dr. Kliman: So that would be your mom's dad's brother, probably?¶
as¶
Dr. Um= Okay.¶
ANS¶
Dr. Kliman: So he could be a cousin?¶
Yeah, her sisters—something about her sisters paid this guy to try to rape her in a closet at school. Um, I don't know how far it went. She didn't get into it with me. If it got far or not. But I know that her sisters paid a guy to rape her in a closet at school. She's actually been raped three times.¶
Twice during her childhood and once as like an adult, on a date.¶
She was either in the beginning of high school or the end of middle school. Pm not a hundred percent sure. She never gave me really facts. She said she was young.¶
Urn, I don't know exactly if it did. She didn't get into that. I'm not sure.¶
Yes. She got raped by her uncle. And then a rape, like a roofie. They slipped something in her drink when she was an adult. And then the closet thing. But I don't know if that necessarily went through. But I know her uncle and the other one. I know the whole stories.¶
I've never met him in my entire life. Urn,¶
Urn, yeah. It makes me sick. But um, he, I guess he lives in New York. Urn, I think ifs my mom's dad's side of the family somehow.¶
Probably, but I don't think it's that close. I don't know how—¶
I don't know if they just call him "uncle", but I know that he's a part of the family. He's like a cousin. A second cousin or something, I don't know.¶
7¶
IOW Yeah, but he's definitely, he was definitely older than her.¶
Dr. Kliman: And how old was she?¶
17:05¶
She was young. She was like, she said she was around like five to seven years old I think. She was really young. And you know, he was like married I think, with kids. Or he had like a family, and he uh, was like, was touching her.¶
Dr. Kliman: How about her sisters? Did they get touched also?¶
Agfre; She's never told me that. No.¶
Dr. Kliman: Has she told you that he raped her? Or that he touched her? Or both?¶
Dr. Kliman: And then she was raped once on a date?¶
18:08¶
s Yeah, I don't know the exact age or time. But I know she was older. And she went on a date with this guy. And he basically slipped something in her drink. And she said she was conscious of what was going on, but she couldn't like scream or move. And him and his friend took her back to a place and raped her.¶
Urn, I don't think that he used his penis. But he used his forgers on her.¶
So two guys raped her?¶
Yes.¶
Dr. Kliman: When did your mother tell you the first of anything about this at first. Let me put it better because I didn't ask it well. What was the first thing you learned about your mother's misfortunes of being sexually abused?¶
18:49¶
a leb Like how old was I?¶
Dr. Kliman: Yeah. How old were you is a good way to put it.¶
AMOS Urn. I was probably in my young teens. She told me I think.¶
Dr. Kliman: Was it before Mr. Epstein or after Mr. Epstein?¶
4 1411P Before.¶
Dr. Kliman: And what did she first tell you?¶