DIGITALLY RECORDED¶
SWORN STATEMENT¶
OIG CASE #:¶
2019-010614¶
OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL¶
OCTOBER 27, 2021¶
RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES¶
Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone:¶
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Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. It says, “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure, and security failure.” And this is what we are writing for everyone that we speak to, just because we’re looking at it as a -happened. “This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you chose not to answer questions. Any statements you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” And there is a waiver section. It says, “I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above, and I am willing¶
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signing as the signature of the Office of the Inspector General, Special Agent. I’m printing my name.¶
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No. Okay. Fair enough.¶
After the incident occurred, what was your role with determining what happened and what didn’t happen after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019?¶
MR. : Well, I responded to the institution. At the time, when I got there, he was at the hospital. So, I didn’t go up to the unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene, and I’ve always been trained, if it was a crime scene, if you weren’t particularly there, the least amount of people that, you know, that go through that crime scene, just don’t go into it. So, I didn’t go into it, but you know, basically gathering information on what happened, notifying the region, notifying the FBI. The IG.¶
MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:09:28). He’s already got that phone call.¶
MR. : Oh.¶
MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Jeffrey Epstein —¶
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MR. : So, what I wanted to know is, and I guess, would you like me just to refresh your memory, to really quickly read what she said happened, so we can figure out what it is that didn’t happen?¶
MR. : Okay. Yeah.¶
MR. : All right. So, this is subject, “Possible suicide attempt.” Again, July 23rd, 2019. It says, “On July -”. Let me just sit back so you can just kind of read along with me. Would you mind if I sit next to you?¶
MR. : I’m vaccinated, just so you know. It says, “On July 23rd, 2019, at approximately 1:27 a.m., a call for assistance on the Special Housing Unit was announced by the control center. Upon my arrival, I was informed that an inmate had attempted suicide and proceeded to cell Z05-124LAD. I observed inmate Epstein, Jeffrey, number 76318-054,¶
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lying in the fetal position on the floor of his cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers.¶
He was breathing heavily, and was snoring. I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no further injuries to his person. An attempt was made to get the inmates, to get the inmate to stand on his own, with negative results. The inmate was placed in hand restraints, and staff was directed to retrieve the stretcher.¶
As inmate Epstein was being placed on the stretcher by responding staff, he would open his eyes and observe staff. When staff made eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit.” Was it that? The health care?¶
MR. : Health. Health Services.¶
MR. : “Dressed in a suicide smock, and placed on suicide watch. While awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, inmate Epstein sat on the of the bed and began moving forward, as if was attempting to fall over, head first. When I looked away, he straightened up. As I turned to look at him¶
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again, he attempted the same act. I laid him down on the bed, and directed him to cease his action or he would be placed in restraints for his safety.¶
At that moment, he stated, ‘Okay. I won’t do it again.’ And gave the thumbs up. Because of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was made to have the staff member observe inmate Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke with Officer , who stated that Inmate Epstein was alert and had indicated that his cellmate, Tartaglione, Nicholas, number 78514-054, had attempted to kill him, and had been harassing him.¶
He stated that the inmate had indicated that he had informed his attorney of this matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate Tartaglione, Nicholas, who stated that he was asleep with his headphones on when he felt something hit his legs, and said, `What are you doing?’ He didn’t answer. So, he got up, turned on the light,” or - so, yeah - “He got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a string around his neck.¶
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He stated that he then called the guards, and they ran down. Upon further questioning, inmate Tartaglione stated that he sleeps on the bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein because he’s old. He stated that he sleeps on the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when he got up, he couldn’t remember if he sat up or stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn’t responding.¶
He stated that the last time he saw him, he was snoring really loud. Inmate Epstein stated that he comes in from a legal visit at approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a copy of the Ddaily Nnews. Nick was on the floor reading the Ddaily Nnews. He stated that he had given it to him. He stated that Tartaglione mentioned that he had been in court all day, in Westchester (Phonetic Sp.¶
*00:25:00), and was carrying on.¶
At that point, inmate Tartaglione paused, as if he was making the story up, as he went along, and stated that Tartaglione stated, These fucking N-I-G-G-E-R-S. This place is¶
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inhumane. I wish I could report it.¶
Officer, that N-I-G-G-E-R, hobbit motherfucker.’ He then turned to a page in the Daily News that had his picture on it, and stated that Epstein was worth 77 million dollars.¶
Epstein then stated that he took his picture, balled it up, and threw it in the garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened prior to staff’s arrival. He stated that at approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30 minutes. He remembered walking back to his bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen staff, why didn’t he respond when we were calling out to him.¶
He stated that he only remembered hearing himself making a noise like snoring. When asked about the allegations against his cellmate, he stated that he was told if he hurt him, staff wouldn’t care. Duty medical -” how do you pronounce that name?¶
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notified and briefed. It was determined that no further medical attention was needed. A medical assessment was not conducted at the time of this incident, due to the fact there was no medical staff available after 10:00 p.m. Upon their arrival of medical staff, inmate Epstein was examined and treated by .Ӧ
“For a circular line of arrythmia, at the base of his neck. One section on the front, with marks of friction, and a small arrythmia on his left knee.” So, sorry that that was so lengthy. But so, again, the question would be, is this, is this, does anything in here strike you as inaccurate?¶
says that in the attached memo, “The information I received is not what I was told happened.” Do you know what she is referring to?¶
MR. : I think she - if I recall - that she told, that said that it was an attempted suicide, but then she got any¶
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start your shift, your start off, you know, you’re putting your name, if you are relieved, or you assume suicide watch.¶
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same thing we just looked at? This looks like, again, it says, “Inmate companion assumed duties from staff on 7/23/19, at 7:00 until 7/24/19, at 8:45 a.m. Epstein was transferred to psych observation on 7/24/2019, at 8:45 a.m. until 7/30/2019 at 8:15 a.m. Inmate companion was utilized.”¶
MR. : Yeah. It just says, you know, (Indiscernible *00:39:01), let me see. You got category. I don’t know what the MDS is, but typically, it’s an assignment. Like, I could put in and do a PP-37 and say where he was housed at. So, I could put quarters. So, this must be a medical term. Concerning his medical status.¶
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MR. : So, we weren’t able to get a whole lot of people, you know, think that how we could house him to be safe. Tartaglione was a white male. Another high-profile case. So, and he is not, you know, there is this misconception that he was a big hulking bodyguard, but he lost over 100 something pounds. So, he was smaller in stature and frame. So, we said that would have been an appropriate cellmate for him.¶
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Okay. Do you mind initialing? And do you know why that would be?¶
MR. : Hold on. If an inmate is cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them about it - but most inmates didn’t, once you are cleared off of suicide watch, they have other things that they do. You can come down and they give you some (Indiscernible *00:54:42) coping courses to take. So, they have other types of therapy, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be entered in as a medical encounter.¶
MR. : Okay. So, this is, so, psychology could have been still meeting with them, just not noted as a medical encounter?¶
MR. : Yeah. You - I mean - you see them, and you can just, like, if you have patients, you will go, how is everything going? You doing all right? Yeah. I’m fine. I’m okay. So, it doesn’t have to be noted as a medical encounter.¶
MR. : Okay. So, your involvement with this, being that he came off of psychological observation on July 30th, should psychology had interacted with him more¶
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did not report any medical, or any mental health concerns, and he denied any suicidal thoughts or intention. He was asking the writer to go to general population and was making requests for various leads he had at the time. He wanted social calls without them being on a speaker phone. He wanted a book he had left in the suicide watch area.¶
His mood was not depressed or anxious. There were no signs of stress. He had planned on meeting with his attorneys to work on his legal situation.” So, there is that. And then, there is also, I don’t know if this was attached. I don’t know how this was printed, but it also looks like all the contacts. It says, “15 contacts in one month. Starting on July 6, 2019, when Epstein arrived. And after the -”. It does say that there was a contact that looks like, on the 31st.¶
MR. HAYES: What does he mean by “contact”?¶
MR. : A psychology contact.¶
MR. HAYES: Okay.¶
MR. : And then, here’s one,¶
8/1/2019. Dr. SBA was —¶
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was it discussed at all that he be placed on Ten South, for the high, you know, the SAMs inmates?¶
MR. : So, here’s the problems with Ten South. It’s the terrorist unit, and there’s SAMS things in there. The amount of attorneys he had coming in there, we couldn’t have those attorneys coming up to that unit every day, and, you know, breaching the security of it, and then, tying up the movement in there, because when an attorney comes in there. Now, those guys get attorneys, but it’s planned, and they are in there. Epstein’s attorneys were coming in early in the morning, and weren’t leaving until late at night. And it was about four or five of them. So —¶
MR. HAYES: And guess who’s paying his bill?¶
MR. : — right. That’s not an appropriate unit, and that’s not what that unit is for.¶
MR. : Now, what about, like, if, you know, an El Chapo (Phonetic Sp.¶
*01:11:55), or some of the other high levels that weren’t terrorists, how did they deal with¶
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have you just initial and date. I’m going to place this, again, here, just in case we need to reference it, and again, it’s just if we need to look at who was working, and what position —¶
disclosure, but just so that we have both. The August 9th one was something that you had sent. All right. Since Epstein was required to have a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of this requirement?¶
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MR. HAYES: And I had a wild eyed crush on Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife seriously - I found the guy who made the knife that she carried in the show, and I said, I want you to make me an exact duplicate. How¶
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MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me just take a look, just so I have, my mind is clear. There is a prisoner’s schedule. The prisoner’s schedule literally means prisoner’s schedule.¶
MR. : Well, yeah. So, the prisoner’s schedule report is something like this, but it will tell you that they are either going to, like, transfer, or they are going to go to court. Whereas this other document that was sent to R&D was just specifically about the transfer.¶
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you notice, one of them said -. So, the count slip said 73 for 12:00 a.m., over the institutional count. And as you see here, for 12:00 a.m., it said 72.¶
MR. : So, what happens is, on the¶
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MR. : There should have been a count slip for him over there. So, what should have happened was, the inmate - him - he should have been outcounted in R&D. And then, the R&D, you would have seen one. So, there was a count slip. Whoever is sitting and watching him should have did a count slip on him. And then, whoever his back up was should have done a count slip.¶
I don’t want to put my words into mouth, but let me know if this makes sense to you. It says, “Count discrepancy on the August 9th, 2019. Per the daily activity report dated August 10th, 2019, and the attachment lieutenant log from August 9th, 2019.” So, that’s what we are looking at here.¶
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5:00 a.m. E1 institution count, respective ZA SHU count slips, eyes on count shows 77. At 8:38 a.m., inmate Reyes is pre-removed from ZA for count, and taken off the lieutenant log. The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76. Reyes was removed from the institution and does not - and should not - appear on any counts at this time.¶
At 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant log. The 4:00 p.m. E1 shows a total of 76 inmates assigned to ZA.” With one in attorney conference, which was Epstein. “This indicates that Fernandez was not keyed out of the SHU, and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip shows 75. Inaccurate.¶
It should have reflected 74 because, although there were 75 inmates assigned to the SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There were no inmates assigned to RA on the E1 institutional count, and there was no count slip for RA, eyes on count.” This is where the problem begins.¶
MR. : Mm-hmm.¶
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of things went wrong this day. So, we need to figure out why these things went wrong. So, this is -. Let me just make sure, before we move on, that I got everything. All right? So, first, before we get into rounds, when a lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU —¶
MR. : — are they required to conduct a round of the inmates going up and down the different tiers, or does the round consist of just checking in with the officers to make sure everything is okay?¶
MR. : Well, you check the officer to make sure they are all right, and you check the documentation. So, you check, you know, you edit, you would have to review the post orders also. To state what their duties are. I mean, all of us had different, you know, I was a lieutenant, so it was different things you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make sure, you know, the officers checked off, you know, if the person ate or not. Any medical. I would check to see if medical came up. So, it would factor and depend on what shift you went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates¶
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are up, so you’re going, you know, you can go around. Evening shift, you can see what’s going on. The midnight shift, they’re sleeping. But you are definitely checking a 30-minute log, to see if the inmates are doing their 30-minute checks. And, you know, just documentation.¶
MR. : Now, as the warden, did you expect your lieutenants, though, to go down range when they were doing their lieutenant visits in the SHU? Their rounds. And this is specifically when they are, like, signing off on the different, like, on, as you can see, this is what I’m going to be showing you. These are round sheets that¶
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know, and you typically do it, like on certain days when the guys are going out to take a shower, you might go out and do that.¶
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perpetual audits. So, you can find out through those, when you do it. And they are usually quarterly. But if there is discrepancies and things are going on in that department of correctional services, we have what we call perpetual audits, which he maintained the records of, and that is another checks and balance where you would find out if something is wrong.¶
All right. So, the fact that this is, we are talking about, like, ten or 11 days, there is a good chance that they weren’t done during that time period? Or do you know when they would be done? Are they done, like, on a certain date?¶
MR. : It’s - and I don’t know when the dates of the quarter starts - but that is to your checks and balance. You know —¶
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- other shifts, you, you know, walk around, see
- what’s going on.
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MR. : See, that’s hard. I mean, to say you would discipline. There is a difference between what is written down, and what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, I want to see what’s going around the unit. I might ask the officer, all right, do we have any problems. The inmates, when you come on, hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are going down the ranges. You know, so, when you are going down the range, you are seeing something. You get to another range. The inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, it is something you should be doing as part of your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just¶
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any unit you walk on, you want to see what is going on in the unit. So, do I want to use the word “sound correctional judgement”? You know, just to see, as a supervisor, what is going on. I mean, you have some people that go above and beyond. And then, do their job, and you have some people that want to do the bareear minimum. But that is something —¶
MR. HAYES: You do the rounds. Does that mean literally walk up and down this, what we, what I would call the cell block?¶
MR. : Yeah. You walk around the unit. You know, you are interacting with inmates. You are talking to inmates. Same thing with the inmates in SHU. You know, you are walking around. Hey, what’s going on?¶
MR. : So, what you are not familiar with is the way the SHU is set up.¶
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MR. — what I do is, I walk around and I go to every cell, and I talk to the guy, got any issues, any problems?¶
They’re, like, no, I’m good. You might have some that say, hey, I’m up here for an investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up here? So, I take my little notes. Okay.¶
Fine. Some of it I can address right there, some of it I can’t. But I would typically walk around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, that is the reason why you are up there. Why am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, you go by it, it says —¶
MR. HAYES: It’s because you are a fucking mass murderer, that’s why you’re up here.¶
MR. : — and, like, you know why you are locked up. And then, they would say, well, how come the investigation is taking so long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, if it was an OIG investigation. It would depend. So, you know, I would usually tell them, like, you know, it’s an outside agency handling. We are in contact with them. And¶
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I would go on the off shifts, you know, to see the staff, but it’s —¶
MR. HAYES: It’s a surprise. In other words, you are not telling them you are coming, you are just going.¶
MR. : Yeah. I’m coming up. I’m making my rounds. I’m sitting, talking to staff. What’s your issues? I mean, it’s more the issue of them just work. I mean -.¶
MR. : So, when you say there’s nothing in writing, saying that you should do it, or is there something in writing saying these people that didn’t do it, that they should have done it?¶
MR. No. And there could be reasons. Now, they - and this is what I would get the report and look into - like, there are people that make the rounds, they come up to SHU but they forget to sign in.¶
MR. : So, when I get the report, I would, you know, talk to the captain, that this the entrance log, and say, hey, why didn’t such and such make a round? Now, that AW might have been out that week, and I had this one covering¶
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there, that I guess, and on the outside of the cell, they would have his name and the other person. Then you should be saying, okay, where is the cellmate? We know he’s not in the attorney room.¶
MR. : So, you know he’s down in the attorney room. So, you would have said, okay, somebody’s got to be in that cell.¶
MR. HAYES: Hmm. Ace bastard. That’s a way to fuck with the other guys.¶
MR. : Meaning, if they actually did the rounds and the counts like they were supposed to, there was more than enough time for them to turn around and assign another cellmate, if needed.¶
MR. : Or to say, of course, to your point, where they are saying that nobody ever told them, if you were making your rounds, you would have saw that there was nobody in that cell, and then ask you a question, where he’s at.¶
MR. HAYES: And the person whose job it is¶
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MR. : When he says pre-filling, what he is saying is that, the beginning of their shift, they are going in and they are just writing, they are initialing and putting in the time. At the very beginning, for the rest of their shift.¶
MR. Because if I become aware and know that somebody is doing something like that, that is reportable misconduct. I’m going to report that. So, if somebody came to me and said, well, this person is pre-filling out count slips, that would be something that I would say, okay, you know, I have to do a referral, or if I don’t have enough evidence for it, I would have a supervisor, you know, put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count slips.¶
MR. : So, if we have people confessing, admitting that they are not only pre-filling out their count slips, but also¶
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MR. HAYES: Yeah, but do you always say is, you have to do what you have to do. Don’t do it just because the 20-year-old guy did that.¶
MR. : I do. I tell people about doing their job. The same thing when it comes to use of force. I tell staff all the time. Use enough force necessary to control the¶
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MR. HAYES: I’m a young lawyer. And I know it’s hard to believe I was ever young. But I go - I’m supposed to interview a prison and I go to the interview, and he says, this person is the main rat against, and I said, no, he’s not. I said, that person has got no - fucking nothing to do with it. He don’t say nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, oh, man, I better make a phone call.¶
MR. : So, is it standard practice to allow inmates to make personal calls, as had done?¶
MR. : You do I, sometimes if they come in, they don’t have a pack number. Like, you could have a family member that has passed away, and, you know, you allow them to make a call under that circumstance. You know, I have a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, you make a call to another agency. And the inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is such and such. But you stay and you listen to the conversation.¶
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MR. : So, you would probably have to look at the response, the staff responding memorandums on what -.¶
MR. : So, up until this date, did you think that he was alive when he had left the institution?¶
MR. : That’s what I believed.¶
That was the impression I had.¶
MR. HAYES: Can I ask a question? Right. If he was dead when they came, and somebody found him, or even if he was close to death, how long would it have been that he tried to kill himself, and the time that they found him? In other words, does that mean he tried to kill himself 45 minutes before? Does that mean he tried to kill himself 30 minutes before? You understand the question I’m asking?¶
MR. : Sure. I mean, that is something that the medical examiner, you know, makes that determination.¶
MR. HAYES: Because obviously, if he was, had done whatever he did, during the time that there was supposed to be a round, and somebody fucked up, you know what I mean? If you are there, with a towel around your throat, that’s¶
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MR. HAYES: So, you drew the inference¶
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Please have it complete and ready for submission on 8/13/2019.” She responded with no, addressing nothing, just saying, just responded simply, “In your email, you state, quote, ‘I am reminding you.’ End quote. I¶
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haven’t spoken to you or anyone else regarding the incident involving inmate Epstein or anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019. So, how is it possible for you to be reminding me? Second, I had been properly relieved, prior to the incident involving inmate Epstein.” What is your take on that email?¶
MR. : First of all, any major incident that takes place in the institution, we have to do what is called a report of incident.¶
MR. : He is well within the scope of his employment, asking, okay, where is your, where is -. And I don’t know if he was asking her the overall memorandum. Like, you are the shift lieutenant. You know, when this incident took place. So, technically, you should have been doing the packet. So, he is probably contacting her for that.¶
MR. : Well, she was relieved at 5:30 a.m., but she was still there, and the incident happened at 6:30. And again, she wasaws there at least until 9:30. And she did respond to the SHU afterwards, helping with the¶
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MR. HAYES: But what would be an ulterior motive that would create the idea that she was doing something wrong?¶
MR. : So, if - and granted, mistakes are made in the log - but you also annotate that in the log. Like, you will put, okay, late entry. Because typically, if you say the log is done already, when you go back and make changes, you make changes for this reason alone. An investigator comes in, looks at it, and says, well, wait a minute, it looks like you’ve been playing, you went back and just changed the numbers. So, you can put in¶
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there, and you say, okay, late entry, explain what your change was, and what the mistake was.¶
MR. HAYES: So, really, with this —¶
MR. □ : You know?¶
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MR. HAYES: You know, if you, if you are a good trial lawyer, you know, allegedly a good trial lawyer, a lot of times, you are not supposed to be thorough. You are supposed to put an idea in the jury’s head, right? Where you can see they’re invulnerable, stay on that fucking idea, because if you are going to be thorough, you have to bring out something that you don’t want to bring out. You know, so you to speak to the things, but you know you got them.¶
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incidents where, you know, something would happen, and we tried to go back and find the tape, and we couldn’t. So, and it would break down, they would fix it. So, I mean, we did have issues like that before. But it was the age of the cameras. The —¶
MR. Because, yeah, the comtech claims that, you know, like, he had been, I mean, he’s a very soft-spoken person, but like, basically, screaming at the top of his lungs as much as a very soft-spoken person can, we need to fix these things, this is a continual problem.¶
MR. : So, here is what it is. We don’t have money readily available at an institution to fix it. That money comes from what we call buildings and funds.¶
MR. : Which is funded by Congress.¶
So, you would have to talk to somebody in the region about what the regional budget is, but other institutions have issues going on.¶
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acceptable, if knew on August 8th that these cameras were down, and he didn’t actually start working on it, or at least, I guess he was working on getting the parts, but then got the parts again on the, some time on the 9th, claims he didn’t work on it because he couldn’t get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was going to work on it on the 10th, on that Saturday.¶
MR. : — the question I would pose to you is, did he notify anybody that he couldn’t get in there? Did he make any attempt to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey, I need to get into that office to get a part to do it, because if he had told the captain that, the captain would have got that office open for him.¶
MR. : Yeah. I agree with you. It’s a he says that the MCC was a different-. So, at any other BOP institution, in the country, that would have happened with, his experience taught him that, at the MCC, basically it could wait until tomorrow.¶
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has rebuilt these things so many times. And every knew that these cameras needed to be reinstalled, and he had been saying that they needed to be reinstalled. And now he’s being looked at as the fall guy.¶
We were getting the people in there to working. So now, let’s talk about the specific issue that you were talking about. He did not notify anybody to get into that room, to get to that part. That part was to fix the current system. It had nothing to do with the new system coming in. This is, he is saying that this was a part that we needed to fix, get put in, to deal with the current system.¶
MR. : Now, what about the fact¶
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took a picture of our staff, and our staff rode with Epstein on it. So, I told about it, and I guess they said one of the paramedics had leaked the information.¶
MR. : Now, who is it that you suspect would have been leaking information to him?¶
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MR. : Were they authorized, though, if OIG and FBI are doing an investigation, is the after action team authorized to come in and interview people?¶
MR. : So, I’ve done after actions. And there is a point where you come to it, where you, if it’s an OIG or FBI investigation, that I can’t. I mean, I can’t question certain people because it might impede an investigation. Like, if you are going to look at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you can’t because most of the time, it’s been taken. So, I don’t know -.¶
MR. : So, possibly from that memo, though, that was created? If they are not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I’m assuming they are not really supposed to be doing interviews.¶
MR. : I mean, I don’t know who authorized them to come in and do the investigation. I don’t know. It was, you know, who set the parameters on it. I can’t speak on that.¶
MR. : And is it a normal for them to do something like this, when there is¶
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Epstein pronounced dead by the emergency room physician. And we’ve already addressed this. My question was, was Epstein alive, or did he show signs of -? But we dug into that plenty.¶
MR. : Mm-hmm.¶
MR. : “On August 10th, 2019, the two assigned morning watch SHU officers failed to make their designated rounds, or count the SHU inmates for two counts. At 6:33 a.m., upon finding inmate Epstein unresponsive in his cell, with a torn bedsheet around his neck, staff utilized the body alarm to initiate a call for assistance. The medical response to the incident was timely, efficient, and exhaustive. Staff utilized an AED, as well as a continuous CPR unit care was assumed by EMS personnel.” Are you aware of how - what information they obtained to say that the SHU officers failed to make their designated rounds or counts?¶
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don’t control. Staffing. You know, the budget. We don’t -. I don’t -. We don’t control that. I mean, we can turn around and say, I want this, but once the law is passed, and it said, this is what you are getting, you don’t -. We need to work with what we’ve got.¶
MR. : No, and I understand that, that as, like, as far as the BOP goes. But I mean, the MCC, especially, you know, covering SDNY Epstein in a lie *05:00:18), and having such high-profile inmates. Was there do you think that there could have been anything done better, though, by the BOP, to make sure that your institution, specifically MCC, was better staffed?¶
MR. : You could - so, let’s go TDY - we couldn’t really, couldn’t TDY to a point, but then, there are other institutions around the agency that were, you know, the staffing was an issue. So, they can’t send somebody out to help, you know? And then, it just brought down the finding. I mean, and getting people to clear your background. Not everybody can clear a background to work. I mean, yeah, we can go out in the street and say, hey, we got a¶
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MR. : — along with me because it’s so long. “He was also an inmate who had risk factors for assault by other inmates, and did require careful selection for appropriate cellmates. Although these issues were noted, well documented, and communicated, a failure still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be placed in the cell alone. Although feasible for an inmate to effectuate suicide while housed with a cellmate, the odds of this occurring are significantly lowered when housed with another inmate.”¶
The report continues. “It is apparent various staff at the institution made a point¶
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MR. : No. But what I’m saying is, if we’re looking at assessing the situation on what happened in real time, that’s what I’m talking about. So, in real time, now, if they had known that, hey, you know what? These names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at the same time, maybe it would have been a different thought process.¶
MR. : And was it possible - and maybe you discussed this - was it possible that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have replaced -? Did they have the ability to replace Reyes, if they wanted to, or did they have to come up the chain of command, for the chain of command to tell them who the new inmate -?¶
MR. : They were instructed, hey, let us know when - where he’s to have a cellmate at all time - and to notify, let someone know. Because again, due to the individual that he was, you just don’t want to throw anybody.¶
MR. : Okay. But doesn’t that kind of hinder them from taking action? Let’s say, at that point on that day, you are not in the¶
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CERTIFICATE¶
I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of:¶
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