SWORN STATEMENT¶
DIGITALLY RECORDED¶
OIG CASE #:¶
2019-010614¶
OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL¶
OCTOBER 27, 2021¶
RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES¶
28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285¶
Agoura Hills, CA 91301¶
Phone:¶
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Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. It says, “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure, and security failure.” And this is what we are writing for everyone that we speak to, just because we’re looking at it as a -happened. “This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you chose not to answer questions. Any statements you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” And there is a waiver section. It says, “I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above, and I am willing¶
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signing as the signature of the Office of the Inspector General, Special Agent. I’m printing my name.¶
MR. HAYES: Oh, one thing. So, ordinarily, I would take notes. I’ve been at Jim Rad (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:49) for 50 years, as you saw, to which my body is falling apart.¶
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After the incident occurred, what was your role with determining what happened and what didn’t happen after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019?¶
Well, I responded to the institution. At the time, when I got there, he was at the hospital. So, I didn’t go up to the unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene, and I’ve always been trained, if it was a crime scene, if you weren’t particularly there, the least amount of people that, you know, that go through that crime scene, just don’t go into it. So, I didn’t go into it, but you know, basically gathering information on what happened, notifying the region, notifying the FBI. The IG.¶
MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:09:28).¶
He’s already got that phone call.¶
MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Jeffrey Epstein —¶
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cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers.¶
He was breathing heavily, and was snoring. I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no further injuries to his person. An attempt was made to get the inmates, to get the inmate to stand on his own, with negative results. The inmate was placed in hand restraints, and staff was directed to retrieve the stretcher.¶
As inmate Epstein was being placed on the stretcher by responding staff, he would open his eyes and observe staff. When staff made eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit.” Was it that? The health care?¶
: Health. Health Services.¶
: “Dressed in a suicide smock, and placed on suicide watch. While awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, inmate Epstein sat on the of the bed and began moving forward, as if was attempting to fall over, head first. When I looked away, he straightened up. As I turned to look at him again, he attempted the same act. I laid him”¶
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down on the bed, and directed him to cease his action or he would be placed in restraints for his safety.¶
At that moment, he stated, ‘Okay. I won’t do it again.’ And gave the thumbs up. Because of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was made to have the staff member observe inmate Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke with Officer Clark, who stated that Inmate Epstein was alert and had indicated that his cellmate, Tartaglione, Nicholas, number 78514-054, had attempted to kill him, and had been harassing him.¶
He stated that the inmate had indicated that he had informed his attorney of this matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate Tartaglione, Nicholas, who stated that he was asleep with his headphones on when he felt something hit his legs, and said, ‘Jeff. What are you doing?’ He didn’t answer. So, he got up, turned on the light,” or - so, yeah - “He got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a string around his neck.¶
He stated that he then called the guards,¶
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and they ran down. Upon further questioning, inmate Tartaglione stated that he sleeps on the bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein because he’s old. He stated that he sleeps on the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when he got up, he couldn’t remember if he sat up or stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn’t responding.¶
He stated that the last time he saw him, he was snoring really loud. Inmate Epstein stated that he comes in from a legal visit at approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a copy of the Daily News. Nick was on the floor reading the Daily News. He stated that he had given it to him. He stated that Tartaglione mentioned that he had been in court all day, in Westchester (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:00), and was carrying on.¶
At that point, inmate Tartaglione paused, as if he was making the story up, as he went along, and stated that Tartaglione stated, These fucking N-I-G-G-E-R-S. This place is inhumane. I wish I could report it.¶
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Officer, that N-I-G-G-E-R, hobbit motherfucker.’ He then turned to a page in the Daily News that had his picture on it, and stated that Epstein was worth 77 million dollars.¶
Epstein then stated that he took his picture, balled it up, and threw it in the garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened prior to staff’s arrival. He stated that at approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30 minutes. He remembered walking back to his bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen staff, why didn’t he respond when we were calling out to him.¶
He stated that he only remembered hearing himself making a noise like snoring. When asked about the allegations against his cellmate, he stated that he was told if he hurt him, staff wouldn’t care. Duty medical doctor -” how do you pronounce that name?¶
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: Yeah, frequently, they would, you know, call our legal department, saying, you know, why can’t he go to general population. Why is he, you know, being housed here? And just not him, if there was any type of equipment that was requested. Those are the type of requests you get from the attorney.¶
: Okay. And do you know if those attorneys were made, though, when he was¶
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Hold on. If an inmate is cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them about it - but most inmates didn’t, once you are cleared off of suicide watch, they have other things that they do. You can come down and they give you some (Indiscernible *00:54:42) coping courses to take. So, they have other types of therapy, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be entered in as a medical encounter.¶
: Okay. So, this is, so, psychology could have been still meeting with them, just not noted as a medical encounter?¶
: Yeah. You - I mean - you see them, and you can just, like, if you have patients, you will go, how is everything going? You doing all right? Yeah. I’m fine. I’m okay. So, it doesn’t have to be noted as a medical encounter.¶
: Okay. So, your involvement with this, being that he came off of psychological observation on July 30th, should psychology had interacted with him more in that type of setting, where they would have¶
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You know, seeing him in other parts of the institution. So, and you would have to ask them. But there were probably encounters with him.¶
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health concerns, and he denied any suicidal thoughts or intention. He was asking the writer to go to general population and was making requests for various leads he had at the time. He wanted social calls without them being on a speaker phone. He wanted a book he had left in the suicide watch area.¶
His mood was not depressed or anxious. There were no signs of stress. He had planned on meeting with his attorneys to work on his legal situation.” So, there is that. And then, there is also, I don’t know if this was attached. I don’t know how this was printed, but it also looks like all the contacts. It says, “15 contacts in one month. Starting on July 6, 2019, when Epstein arrived. And after the -”. It does say that there was a contact that looks like, on the 31st.¶
MR. HAYES: What does he mean by “contact”?¶
A psychology contact.¶
Okay.¶
And then, here’s one, 8/1/2019, Dr. Imeri, SRA, was —¶
Yeah.¶
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the word “courtesy” as a telling, but they’re keeping, they’re keeping us informed, saying, okay, we need to take him off of suicide watch. Now, let’s say I come in and interject and say, no, I want him on there. What is my reasoning for putting him on there?¶
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Ten South, for the high, you know, the SAMs inmates?¶
So, here’s the problems with Ten South. It’s the terrorist unit, and there’s SAMS things in there. The amount of attorneys he had coming in there, we couldn’t have those attorneys coming up to that unit every day, and, you know, breaching the security of it, and then, tying up the movement in there, because when an attorney comes in there. Now, those guys get attorneys, but it’s planned, and they are in there. Epstein’s attorneys were coming in early in the morning, and weren’t leaving until late at night. And it was about four or five of them. So —¶
MR. HAYES: And guess who’s paying his bill?¶
: — right. That’s not an appropriate unit, and that’s not what that unit is for.¶
Now, what about, like, if, you know, an El Chapo (Phonetic Sp.¶
*01:11:55), or some of the other high levels that weren’t terrorists, how did they deal with that, or did they have attorneys visiting them¶
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MR. HAYES: And I had a wild eyed crush on Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife - seriously - I found the guy who made the knife that she carried in the show, and I said, I want you to make me an exact duplicate. How sick is that? Of that knife. And so, this is¶
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MR. HAYES: Okay. So, nobody is in a position to say, hey, he’s in a cell by himself. Until the end of the day.¶
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you are probably trying to, you know, hesitate on maybe saying, like, this person did something wrong, but really, who dropped the ball here? Knowing, though, that you could take a look, the day before, all these people are the ones who received the email —¶
MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me just take a look, just so I have, my mind is clear. There¶
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MR. HAYES: I mean, this isn’t really that¶
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8:38 a.m., inmate Reyes is pre-removed from ZA for count, and taken off the lieutenant log.¶
The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76.¶
Reyes was removed from the institution and does not - and should not - appear on any counts at this time.¶
At 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant log. The 4:00 p.m. E1 shows a total of 76 inmates assigned to ZA.” With one in attorney conference, which was Epstein. “This indicates that Fernandez was not keyed out of the SHU, and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip shows 75. Inaccurate.¶
It should have reflected 74 because, although there were 75 inmates assigned to the SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There were no inmates assigned to RA on the E1 institutional count, and there was no count slip for RA, eyes on count.” This is where the problem begins.¶
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- 6:47 p.m., inmate Reed (Phonetic Sp.
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*02:26:23) is moved from K into ZA, bringing the accurate count up to 72.¶
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this is -. Let me just make sure, before we move on, that I got everything. All right? So, first, before we get into rounds, when a lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU —¶
: — are they required to conduct a round of the inmates going up and down the different tiers, or does the round consist of just checking in with the officers to make sure everything is okay?¶
Well, you check the officer to make sure they are all right, and you check the documentation. So, you check, you know, you edit, you would have to review the post orders also. To state what their duties are. I mean, all of us had different, you know, I was a lieutenant, so it was different things you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make sure, you know, the officers checked off, you know, if the person ate or not. Any medical. I would check to see if medical came up. So, it would factor and depend on what shift you went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates are up, so you’re going, you know, you can go around. Evening shift, you can see what’s¶
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of figure out the timing of the route. But the fact remains, if you are not showing on the form that you did your rounds, then that’s, that’s a problem.¶
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See, that’s hard. I mean, to say you would discipline. There is a difference between what is written down, and what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, I want to see what’s going around the unit. I might ask the officer, all right, do we have any problems. The inmates, when you come on, hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are going down the ranges. You know, so, when you are going down the range, you are seeing something. You get to another range. The inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, it is something you should be doing as part of your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just walking around, to make sure everything is -.¶
But if you were still the¶
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MR. HAYES: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I’m fucking out of here. If you bring that pile back, I’m out of here. Now, I’m going to give you some of that money back, but I can’t take this shit no more.¶
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: — what I do is, I walk around and I go to every cell, and I talk to the guy, got any issues, any problems?¶
They’re, like, no, I’m good. You might have some that say, hey, I’m up here for an investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up here? So, I take my little notes. Okay.¶
Fine. Some of it I can address right there, some of it I can’t. But I would typically walk around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, that is the reason why you are up there. Why am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, you go by it, it says —¶
MR. HAYES: It’s because you are a fucking mass murderer, that’s why you’re up here.¶
: — and, like, you know why you are locked up. And then, they would say, well, how come the investigation is taking so long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, if it was an OIG investigation. It would depend. So, you know, I would usually tell them, like, you know, it’s an outside agency handling. We are in contact with them. And somebody will come see you.¶
: Okay.¶
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their shift, they are going in and they are just writing, they are initialing and putting in the time. At the very beginning, for the rest of their shift.¶
and know that somebody is doing something like that, that is reportable misconduct. I’m going to report that. So, if somebody came to me and said, well, this person is pre-filling out count slips, that would be something that I would say, okay, you know, I have to do a referral, or if I don’t have enough evidence for it, I would have a supervisor, you know, put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count slips.¶
So, if we have people confessing, admitting that they are not only pre-filling out their count slips, but also doing it with their round sheets —¶
Right.¶
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basically tell them, I said, you got some good people that work in the institution. And then, I had, you got some people with time, that just want to do what they want to do. And I tell them, don’t follow them around. I said, you’ve got one. If you are on probation coming in, you need to be doing your job. I said, if someone comes in, and they’re not doing their job, or they’re telling you not to do something, you make sure you let your supervisor know. I said, I make rounds, you can, you can talk to me.¶
: You know? So, the expectation was clear. But with any other agency - and I’m not just saying our agency - there are people that come in and they become followers.¶
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MR. HAYES: I’m a young lawyer. And I know it’s hard to believe I was ever young. But I go - I’m supposed to interview a prison and I go to the interview, and he says, this person is the main rat against, and I said, no, he’s not. I said, that person has got no -fucking nothing to do with it. He don’t say nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, oh, man, I better make a phone call.¶
So, is it standard practice to allow inmates to make personal calls, as had done?¶
You do I, sometimes if they come in, they don’t have a pack number. Like, you could have a family member that has passed away, and, you know, you allow them to make a call under that circumstance. You know, I have a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, you make a call to another agency. And the inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is such and such. But you stay and you listen to the conversation.¶
: Was there ever an instance that you wouldn’t listen to the¶
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quick one. It says, “Responded to a body alarm at 6:35 for a medical emergency on Nine South. Upon arrival, inmate was received on the floor of his cell, unresponsive, with CPR in progress by correctional officers. The inmate was cold with circumferential bruising around the neck and posterior mottling. Pupils fixed and dilated. No palpus (Phonetic Sp. *03:35:59) pulses, call place for EMS, CPR continued.¶
ED placed. No shock advised. CPR continued. Inmate transported to HSU treatment¶
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memorandums on what -.¶
: So, up until this date, did you think that he was alive when he had left the institution?¶
: That’s what I believed.¶
That was the impression I had.¶
MR. HAYES: Can I ask a question? Right. If he was dead when they came, and somebody found him, or even if he was close to death, how long would it have been that he tried to kill himself, and the time that they found him? In other words, does that mean he tried to kill himself 45 minutes before? Does that mean he tried to kill himself 30 minutes before? You understand the question I’m asking?¶
: Sure. I mean, that is something that the medical examiner, you know, makes that determination.¶
MR. HAYES: Because obviously, if he was, had done whatever he did, during the time that there was supposed to be a round, and somebody fucked up, you know what I mean? If you are there, with a towel around your throat, that’s a hint that you are not exactly in the best of moods.¶
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Please have it complete and ready for submission on 8/13/2019.” She responded with no, addressing nothing, just saying, just responded simply, “In your email, you state, quote, ‘I am reminding you.’ End quote. I haven’t spoken to you or anyone else regarding the incident involving inmate Epstein or anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019.¶
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mistakes are made in the log - but you also annotate that in the log. Like, you will put, okay, late entry. Because typically, if you say the log is done already, when you go back and make changes, you make changes for this reason alone. An investigator comes in, looks at it, and says, well, wait a minute, it looks like you’ve been playing, you went back and just changed the numbers. So, you can put in there, and you say, okay, late entry, explain what your change was, and what the mistake was.¶
MR. HAYES: So, really, with this —¶
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MR. HAYES: You know, if you, if you are a good trial lawyer, you know, allegedly a good trial lawyer, a lot of times, you are not supposed to be thorough. You are supposed to put an idea in the jury’s head, right? Where you can see they’re invulnerable, stay on that fucking idea, because if you are going to be thorough, you have to bring out something that you don’t want to bring out. You know, so you to speak to the things, but you know you got them.¶
[Blank space] : Yeah.¶
[Blank space] : So, this is an email that was received. Who’s [Blank space] ?¶
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working on getting the parts, but then got the parts again on the, some time on the 9th, claims he didn’t work on it because he couldn’t get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was going to work on it on the 10th, on that Saturday.¶
to you is, did he notify anybody that he couldn’t get in there? Did he make any attempt to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey, I need to get into that office to get a part to do it, because if he had told the captain that, the captain would have got that office open for him.¶
: Yeah. I agree with you. It’s a he says that the MCC was a different-. So, at any other BOP institution, in the country, that would have happened with, his experience taught him that, at the MCC, basically it could wait until tomorrow.¶
MR. HAYES: They wait until tomorrow.¶
****: So, so that’s his opinion.¶
But again, I’m going to pose a question. Who¶
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some follow up. I don’t want to speak on it, but you know, if he had told him something on the 8th, you know, I don’t know the conversations that were taking place between them. Like, where is that, and what is he saying? Right now, I’m responding to what he is saying, and it makes no sense.¶
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MR. HAYES: Oh, Christ. You got more¶
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coming in the room, when they got to the emergency room. Took a picture of Epstein being rolled in. And our - what do you call it? - and our staff. So, I talked to about that, and then, I had also told him that you know, there might be some staff, you know, because, and I didn’t know where it was coming from, because the information was just coming out, you know, so quickly, and it was, like, where is this, you know, coming from? So, I called and made him aware, you know, told him about it when he came on Sunday. But the main one was because of the picture in the Post.¶
Now, who is it that you suspect would have been leaking information to him?¶
: I couldn’t, I couldn’t even tell. But I just was, you know, with this whole thing. You know, stuff would leak, had¶
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next one. It says, “Significant —¶
MR. HAYES: Don’t bring this guy in on another case. All right? If the next time this comes up, and he says, I’m going to bring this guy, don’t fucking do it.¶
from the U.S. Marshal Service. Additional review revealed inmate Epstein departed the institution for a total of four court appearances, and only one of these occasions was an ARS change made within Sentry. It appears there is a culture of foregoing this vital function, due to the likelihood of the inmate returning from court. This lapse in procedure is a severe inmate accountability¶
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check, that they couldn’t find it. So, I don’t know.¶
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authorized to come in and interview people?¶
So, I’ve done after actions.¶
And there is a point where you come to it, where you, if it’s an OIG or FBI investigation, that I can’t. I mean, I can’t question certain people because it might impede an investigation. Like, if you are going to look at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you can’t because most of the time, it’s been taken. So, I don’t know -.¶
So, possibly from that memo, though, that was created? If they are not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I’m assuming they are not really supposed to be doing interviews.¶
I mean, I don’t know who authorized them to come in and do the investigation. I don’t know. It was, you know, who set the parameters on it. I can’t speak on that.¶
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No? And I just say this because I know, in reviewing the emails, a lot of this information was provided from you to , and was providing it to whomever, that were —¶
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say, I want this, but once the law is passed, and it said, this is what you are getting, you don’t -. We need to work with what we’ve got.¶
No, and I understand that, that as, like, as far as the BOP goes. But I mean, the MCC, especially, you know, covering SDNY, and having such high-profile inmates. Was there - do you think that there could have been anything done better, though, by the BOP, to make sure that your institution, specifically MCC, was better staffed?¶
You could - so, let’s go TDY - we couldn’t really, could TDY to a point, but then, there are other institutions around the agency that were, you know, the staffing was an issue. So, they can’t send somebody out to help, you know? And then, it just brought down the finding. I mean, and getting people to clear your background. Not everybody can clear a background to work. I mean, yeah, we can go out in the street and say, hey, we got a job for you, but can you pass the guidelines?¶
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: — along with me because it’s so long. “He was also an inmate who had risk factors for assault by other inmates, and did require careful selection for appropriate cellmates. Although these issues were noted, well documented, and communicated, a failure still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be placed in the cell alone. Although feasible for an inmate to effectuate suicide while housed with a cellmate, the odds of this occurring are significantly lowered when housed with another inmate.”¶
The report continues. “It is apparent various staff at the institution made a point of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned cellmate. The captain personally instructed the lieutenants, individually. A mass email was distributed by psychology, and it is¶
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and counts, that -. Is that what you believe would have helped keep him alive today, if, you know, from the government perspective?¶
I mean, again, I’m going to just say, I can’t say what would have kept him alive, but I will say, you know, if people made their rounds, did their job, followed instructions that they were given, then it might have -. Could have minimized what, you know —¶
: — you know, what happened.¶
The risk. But I can’t talk to, you know, if he would have done it or not done it. If that would have stopped him.¶
Now, as far as this last sentence, what they wrote, “After that moment, it is clear there was no additional written directive, or fail safe system established to ensure inmate Epstein would have a cellmate going forward.” What do you think could have been done, and who should have done it?¶
So, directives and the information was conveyed to people verbally, documented on forms, on what you are supposed¶
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had known that, hey, you know what? These names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at the same time, maybe it would have been a different thought process.¶
And was it possible - and maybe you discussed this - was it possible that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have replaced -? Did they have the ability to replace Reyes, if they wanted to, or did they have to come up the chain of command, for the chain of command to tell them who the new inmate -?¶
: They were instructed, hey, let us know when - where he’s to have a cellmate at all time - and to notify, let someone know. Because again, due to the individual that he was, you just don’t want to throw anybody.¶
: Okay. But doesn’t that kind of hinder them from taking action? Let’s say, at that point on that day, you are not in the institution, was there, I understand.¶
There was an acting warden there. You had the executive staff there.¶
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CERTIFICATE¶
I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of:¶
Interview of¶
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