SWORN STATEMENT DIGITALLY RECORDED OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OCTOBER 27, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00058871 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058872 EFTA00058873 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058874 EFTA00058875 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058876 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. It says, “You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure, and security failure.” And this is what we are writing for everyone that we speak to, just because we’re looking at it as a -happened. “This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you chose not to answer questions. Any statements you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both.” And there is a waiver section. It says, “I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above, and I am willing EFTA00058877 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 EFTA00058878 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058879 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 signing as the signature of the Office of the Inspector General, Special Agent. I'm printing my name. MR. HAYES: Oh, one thing. So, ordinarily, I would take notes. I've been at Jim Rad (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:49) for 50 years, as you saw, to which my body is falling apart. EFTA00058880 EFTA00058881 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 EFTA00058882 EFTA00058883 EFTA00058884 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 EFTA00058885 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 After the incident occurred, what was your role with determining what happened and what didn't happen after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019? Well, I responded to the institution. At the time, when I got there, he was at the hospital. So, I didn't go up to the unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene, and I've always been trained, if it was a crime scene, if you weren't particularly there, the least amount of people that, you know, that go through that crime scene, just don't go into it. So, I didn't go into it, but you know, basically gathering information on what happened, notifying the region, notifying the FBI. The IG. MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:09:28). He's already got that phone call. MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Jeffrey Epstein -- EFTA00058886 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058887 EFTA00058888 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 EFTA00058889 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 EFTA00058890 EFTA00058891 EFTA00058892 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 EFTA00058893 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 EFTA00058894 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 EFTA00058895 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058896 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 EFTA00058897 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 EFTA00058898 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 EFTA00058899 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 EFTA00058900 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058901 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 EFTA00058902 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers. He was breathing heavily, and was snoring. I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no further injuries to his person. An attempt was made to get the inmates, to get the inmate to stand on his own, with negative results. The inmate was placed in hand restraints, and staff was directed to retrieve the stretcher. As inmate Epstein was being placed on the stretcher by responding staff, he would open his eyes and observe staff. When staff made eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit.” Was it that? The health care? : Health. Health Services. : "Dressed in a suicide smock, and placed on suicide watch. While awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, inmate Epstein sat on the of the bed and began moving forward, as if was attempting to fall over, head first. When I looked away, he straightened up. As I turned to look at him again, he attempted the same act. I laid him" EFTA00058903 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 down on the bed, and directed him to cease his action or he would be placed in restraints for his safety. At that moment, he stated, 'Okay. I won't do it again.' And gave the thumbs up. Because of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was made to have the staff member observe inmate Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke with Officer Clark, who stated that Inmate Epstein was alert and had indicated that his cellmate, Tartaglione, Nicholas, number 78514-054, had attempted to kill him, and had been harassing him. He stated that the inmate had indicated that he had informed his attorney of this matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate Tartaglione, Nicholas, who stated that he was asleep with his headphones on when he felt something hit his legs, and said, ‘Jeff. What are you doing?’ He didn't answer. So, he got up, turned on the light,” or - so, yeah - “He got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a string around his neck. He stated that he then called the guards, EFTA00058904 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 and they ran down. Upon further questioning, inmate Tartaglione stated that he sleeps on the bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein because he’s old. He stated that he sleeps on the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when he got up, he couldn’t remember if he sat up or stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn’t responding. He stated that the last time he saw him, he was snoring really loud. Inmate Epstein stated that he comes in from a legal visit at approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a copy of the Daily News. Nick was on the floor reading the Daily News. He stated that he had given it to him. He stated that Tartaglione mentioned that he had been in court all day, in Westchester (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:00), and was carrying on. At that point, inmate Tartaglione paused, as if he was making the story up, as he went along, and stated that Tartaglione stated, `These fucking N-I-G-G-E-R-S. This place is inhumane. I wish I could report it.` EFTA00058905 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 Officer, that N-I-G-G-E-R, hobbit motherfucker.’ He then turned to a page in the Daily News that had his picture on it, and stated that Epstein was worth 77 million dollars. Epstein then stated that he took his picture, balled it up, and threw it in the garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened prior to staff’s arrival. He stated that at approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30 minutes. He remembered walking back to his bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen staff, why didn't he respond when we were calling out to him. He stated that he only remembered hearing himself making a noise like snoring. When asked about the allegations against his cellmate, he stated that he was told if he hurt him, staff wouldn’t care. Duty medical doctor -” how do you pronounce that name? EFTA00058906 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 EFTA00058907 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 EFTA00058908 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 EFTA00058909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 EFTA00058911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 EFTA00058913 EFTA00058914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 EFTA00058915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 EFTA00058916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 EFTA00058917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 EFTA00058918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 EFTA00058920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 EFTA00058921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 EFTA00058922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 EFTA00058923 EFTA00058924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 : Yeah, frequently, they would, you know, call our legal department, saying, you know, why can't he go to general population. Why is he, you know, being housed here? And just not him, if there was any type of equipment that was requested. Those are the type of requests you get from the attorney. : Okay. And do you know if those attorneys were made, though, when he was EFTA00058925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 EFTA00058926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 EFTA00058927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 EFTA00058928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 EFTA00058929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058930 EFTA00058931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 EFTA00058932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 EFTA00058933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 EFTA00058934 EFTA00058935 EFTA00058936 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 EFTA00058937 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058938 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058939 EFTA00058940 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 Hold on. If an inmate is cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them about it - but most inmates didn't, once you are cleared off of suicide watch, they have other things that they do. You can come down and they give you some (Indiscernible *00:54:42) coping courses to take. So, they have other types of therapy, but it doesn't necessarily have to be entered in as a medical encounter. : Okay. So, this is, so, psychology could have been still meeting with them, just not noted as a medical encounter? : Yeah. You - I mean - you see them, and you can just, like, if you have patients, you will go, how is everything going? You doing all right? Yeah. I'm fine. I'm okay. So, it doesn't have to be noted as a medical encounter. : Okay. So, your involvement with this, being that he came off of psychological observation on July 30th, should psychology had interacted with him more in that type of setting, where they would have EFTA00058941 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 EFTA00058942 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 You know, seeing him in other parts of the institution. So, and you would have to ask them. But there were probably encounters with him. EFTA00058943 EFTA00058944 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058945 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 EFTA00058946 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 EFTA00058947 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 EFTA00058948 EFTA00058949 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 health concerns, and he denied any suicidal thoughts or intention. He was asking the writer to go to general population and was making requests for various leads he had at the time. He wanted social calls without them being on a speaker phone. He wanted a book he had left in the suicide watch area. His mood was not depressed or anxious. There were no signs of stress. He had planned on meeting with his attorneys to work on his legal situation.” So, there is that. And then, there is also, I don't know if this was attached. I don’t know how this was printed, but it also looks like all the contacts. It says, “15 contacts in one month. Starting on July 6, 2019, when Epstein arrived. And after the -”. It does say that there was a contact that looks like, on the 31st. MR. HAYES: What does he mean by “contact”? A psychology contact. Okay. And then, here’s one, 8/1/2019, Dr. Imeri, SRA, was -- Yeah. EFTA00058950 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058951 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 EFTA00058952 EFTA00058953 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 EFTA00058954 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058955 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 EFTA00058956 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 the word “courtesy” as a telling, but they’re keeping, they’re keeping us informed, saying, okay, we need to take him off of suicide watch. Now, let’s say I come in and interject and say, no, I want him on there. What is my reasoning for putting him on there? EFTA00058957 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058958 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 EFTA00058959 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 EFTA00058960 EFTA00058961 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 EFTA00058962 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 Ten South, for the high, you know, the SAMs inmates? So, here’s the problems with Ten South. It’s the terrorist unit, and there’s SAMS things in there. The amount of attorneys he had coming in there, we couldn’t have those attorneys coming up to that unit every day, and, you know, breaching the security of it, and then, tying up the movement in there, because when an attorney comes in there. Now, those guys get attorneys, but it’s planned, and they are in there. Epstein’s attorneys were coming in early in the morning, and weren’t leaving until late at night. And it was about four or five of them. So -- MR. HAYES: And guess who's paying his bill? : -- right. That’s not an appropriate unit, and that’s not what that unit is for. Now, what about, like, if, you know, an El Chapo (Phonetic Sp. *01:11:55), or some of the other high levels that weren't terrorists, how did they deal with that, or did they have attorneys visiting them EFTA00058963 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 EFTA00058964 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 EFTA00058965 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058966 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 EFTA00058967 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 EFTA00058968 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 EFTA00058969 EFTA00058970 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 EFTA00058971 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 EFTA00058972 EFTA00058973 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 EFTA00058974 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058975 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 EFTA00058976 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 EFTA00058977 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 EFTA00058978 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 EFTA00058979 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058980 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 EFTA00058981 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 EFTA00058982 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE MR. HAYES: And I had a wild eyed crush on Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife - seriously - I found the guy who made the knife that she carried in the show, and I said, I want you to make me an exact duplicate. How sick is that? Of that knife. And so, this is EFTA00058983 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 EFTA00058984 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 EFTA00058985 EFTA00058986 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 EFTA00058987 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 EFTA00058988 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058989 EFTA00058990 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058991 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058992 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 EFTA00058993 EFTA00058994 EFTA00058995 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 EFTA00058996 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 EFTA00058997 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058998 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00058999 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 EFTA00059000 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 EFTA00059001 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059002 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 EFTA00059003 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 EFTA00059004 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 EFTA00059005 EFTA00059006 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 EFTA00059007 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 EFTA00059008 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, nobody is in a position to say, hey, he's in a cell by himself. Until the end of the day. EFTA00059009 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 EFTA00059010 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 EFTA00059011 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 EFTA00059012 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 EFTA00059013 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 EFTA00059014 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 you are probably trying to, you know, hesitate on maybe saying, like, this person did something wrong, but really, who dropped the ball here? Knowing, though, that you could take a look, the day before, all these people are the ones who received the email -- MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me just take a look, just so I have, my mind is clear. There EFTA00059015 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 EFTA00059016 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 EFTA00059017 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 EFTA00059018 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 EFTA00059019 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 EFTA00059020 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 EFTA00059021 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059022 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 EFTA00059023 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059024 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 EFTA00059025 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 EFTA00059026 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 EFTA00059027 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 EFTA00059028 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 EFTA00059029 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059030 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 EFTA00059031 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059032 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 163 EFTA00059033 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059034 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 EFTA00059035 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 EFTA00059036 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 EFTA00059037 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059038 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 EFTA00059039 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 EFTA00059040 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 171 EFTA00059041 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 MR. HAYES: I mean, this isn't really that EFTA00059042 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 EFTA00059043 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 EFTA00059044 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 EFTA00059045 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 EFTA00059046 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 EFTA00059047 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059048 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 EFTA00059049 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059050 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059051 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 EFTA00059052 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 EFTA00059053 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059054 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 EFTA00059055 EFTA00059056 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 EFTA00059057 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 EFTA00059058 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 EFTA00059059 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 EFTA00059060 EFTA00059061 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 EFTA00059062 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 EFTA00059063 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059064 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 EFTA00059065 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 EFTA00059066 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 EFTA00059067 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 EFTA00059068 EFTA00059069 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 EFTA00059070 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 8:38 a.m., inmate Reyes is pre-removed from ZA for count, and taken off the lieutenant log. The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76. Reyes was removed from the institution and does not - and should not - appear on any counts at this time. At 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant log. The 4:00 p.m. E1 shows a total of 76 inmates assigned to ZA.” With one in attorney conference, which was Epstein. “This indicates that Fernandez was not keyed out of the SHU, and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip shows 75. Inaccurate. It should have reflected 74 because, although there were 75 inmates assigned to the SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There were no inmates assigned to RA on the E1 institutional count, and there was no count slip for RA, eyes on count.” This is where the problem begins. EFTA00059071 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 74. 6:47 p.m., inmate Reed (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:10) is moved from ZA to ES, bringing it down to 73. At 8:21 p.m., Felix (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:15) and William moved to ZA, to suicide watch, bringing the accurate count down to 71. At 8:28 p.m., inmate Garcia Pina (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:23) is moved from K into ZA, bringing the accurate count up to 72. EFTA00059072 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 203 EFTA00059073 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 EFTA00059074 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 EFTA00059075 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 EFTA00059076 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 207 EFTA00059077 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 EFTA00059078 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 EFTA00059079 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 EFTA00059080 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 this is -. Let me just make sure, before we move on, that I got everything. All right? So, first, before we get into rounds, when a lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU -- : -- are they required to conduct a round of the inmates going up and down the different tiers, or does the round consist of just checking in with the officers to make sure everything is okay? Well, you check the officer to make sure they are all right, and you check the documentation. So, you check, you know, you edit, you would have to review the post orders also. To state what their duties are. I mean, all of us had different, you know, I was a lieutenant, so it was different things you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make sure, you know, the officers checked off, you know, if the person ate or not. Any medical. I would check to see if medical came up. So, it would factor and depend on what shift you went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates are up, so you’re going, you know, you can go around. Evening shift, you can see what’s EFTA00059081 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 EFTA00059082 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 EFTA00059083 EFTA00059084 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059085 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 EFTA00059086 217 EFTA00059087 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 EFTA00059088 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 EFTA00059089 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 220 of figure out the timing of the route. But the fact remains, if you are not showing on the form that you did your rounds, then that’s, that’s a problem. EFTA00059090 EFTA00059091 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059092 EFTA00059093 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 224 EFTA00059094 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 EFTA00059095 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059096 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 227 EFTA00059097 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 EFTA00059098 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059099 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 EFTA00059100 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059101 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059102 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059103 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 234 EFTA00059104 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 EFTA00059105 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 EFTA00059106 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 EFTA00059107 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 EFTA00059108 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 EFTA00059109 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 EFTA00059110 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059111 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 EFTA00059112 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 EFTA00059113 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 244 EFTA00059114 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 EFTA00059115 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 EFTA00059116 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 EFTA00059117 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059118 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 EFTA00059119 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 250 EFTA00059120 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 EFTA00059121 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 252 EFTA00059122 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 253 EFTA00059123 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 254 See, that’s hard. I mean, to say you would discipline. There is a difference between what is written down, and what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, I want to see what’s going around the unit. I might ask the officer, all right, do we have any problems. The inmates, when you come on, hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are going down the ranges. You know, so, when you are going down the range, you are seeing something. You get to another range. The inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, it is something you should be doing as part of your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just walking around, to make sure everything is -. But if you were still the EFTA00059124 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059125 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 EFTA00059126 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 257 EFTA00059127 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 EFTA00059128 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 EFTA00059129 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 MR. HAYES: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I'm fucking out of here. If you bring that pile back, I'm out of here. Now, I'm going to give you some of that money back, but I can't take this shit no more. EFTA00059130 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 EFTA00059131 EFTA00059132 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 263 EFTA00059133 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 EFTA00059134 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 EFTA00059135 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 EFTA00059136 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 EFTA00059137 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 : -- what I do is, I walk around and I go to every cell, and I talk to the guy, got any issues, any problems? They’re, like, no, I'm good. You might have some that say, hey, I'm up here for an investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up here? So, I take my little notes. Okay. Fine. Some of it I can address right there, some of it I can't. But I would typically walk around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, that is the reason why you are up there. Why am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, you go by it, it says -- MR. HAYES: It’s because you are a fucking mass murderer, that’s why you’re up here. : -- and, like, you know why you are locked up. And then, they would say, well, how come the investigation is taking so long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, if it was an OIG investigation. It would depend. So, you know, I would usually tell them, like, you know, it’s an outside agency handling. We are in contact with them. And somebody will come see you. : Okay. EFTA00059138 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 EFTA00059139 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 EFTA00059140 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 271 EFTA00059141 EFTA00059142 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 273 EFTA00059143 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 274 EFTA00059144 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 EFTA00059145 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 EFTA00059146 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 EFTA00059147 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 EFTA00059148 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 their shift, they are going in and they are just writing, they are initialing and putting in the time. At the very beginning, for the rest of their shift. and know that somebody is doing something like that, that is reportable misconduct. I'm going to report that. So, if somebody came to me and said, well, this person is pre-filling out count slips, that would be something that I would say, okay, you know, I have to do a referral, or if I don't have enough evidence for it, I would have a supervisor, you know, put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count slips. So, if we have people confessing, admitting that they are not only pre-filling out their count slips, but also doing it with their round sheets -- Right. EFTA00059149 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059150 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 EFTA00059151 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 EFTA00059152 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 283 basically tell them, I said, you got some good people that work in the institution. And then, I had, you got some people with time, that just want to do what they want to do. And I tell them, don’t follow them around. I said, you’ve got one. If you are on probation coming in, you need to be doing your job. I said, if someone comes in, and they’re not doing their job, or they’re telling you not to do something, you make sure you let your supervisor know. I said, I make rounds, you can, you can talk to me. : You know? So, the expectation was clear. But with any other agency - and I'm not just saying our agency - there are people that come in and they become followers. EFTA00059153 EFTA00059154 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 285 EFTA00059155 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 EFTA00059156 EFTA00059157 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 EFTA00059158 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 EFTA00059159 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 EFTA00059160 EFTA00059161 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 292 EFTA00059162 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 293 EFTA00059163 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 294 MR. HAYES: I'm a young lawyer. And I know it's hard to believe I was ever young. But I go - I'm supposed to interview a prison and I go to the interview, and he says, this person is the main rat against, and I said, no, he's not. I said, that person has got no -fucking nothing to do with it. He don't say nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, oh, man, I better make a phone call. So, is it standard practice to allow inmates to make personal calls, as had done? You do I, sometimes if they come in, they don’t have a pack number. Like, you could have a family member that has passed away, and, you know, you allow them to make a call under that circumstance. You know, I have a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, you make a call to another agency. And the inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is such and such. But you stay and you listen to the conversation. : Was there ever an instance that you wouldn't listen to the EFTA00059164 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 295 EFTA00059165 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 296 EFTA00059166 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 297 EFTA00059167 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 298 EFTA00059168 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 299 EFTA00059169 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 300 EFTA00059170 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059171 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 302 EFTA00059172 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 303 quick one. It says, "Responded to a body alarm at 6:35 for a medical emergency on Nine South. Upon arrival, inmate was received on the floor of his cell, unresponsive, with CPR in progress by correctional officers. The inmate was cold with circumferential bruising around the neck and posterior mottling. Pupils fixed and dilated. No palpus (Phonetic Sp. *03:35:59) pulses, call place for EMS, CPR continued. ED placed. No shock advised. CPR continued. Inmate transported to HSU treatment EFTA00059173 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 304 EFTA00059174 305 EFTA00059175 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 306 memorandums on what -. : So, up until this date, did you think that he was alive when he had left the institution? : That’s what I believed. That was the impression I had. MR. HAYES: Can I ask a question? Right. If he was dead when they came, and somebody found him, or even if he was close to death, how long would it have been that he tried to kill himself, and the time that they found him? In other words, does that mean he tried to kill himself 45 minutes before? Does that mean he tried to kill himself 30 minutes before? You understand the question I'm asking? : Sure. I mean, that is something that the medical examiner, you know, makes that determination. MR. HAYES: Because obviously, if he was, had done whatever he did, during the time that there was supposed to be a round, and somebody fucked up, you know what I mean? If you are there, with a towel around your throat, that's a hint that you are not exactly in the best of moods. EFTA00059176 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 307 EFTA00059177 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059178 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 309 EFTA00059179 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059180 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059181 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 312 EFTA00059182 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 313 EFTA00059183 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 314 EFTA00059184 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 315 EFTA00059185 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059186 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 317 EFTA00059187 EFTA00059188 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 319 EFTA00059189 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE Please have it complete and ready for submission on 8/13/2019.” She responded with no, addressing nothing, just saying, just responded simply, “In your email, you state, quote, ‘I am reminding you.’ End quote. I haven’t spoken to you or anyone else regarding the incident involving inmate Epstein or anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019. EFTA00059190 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 321 EFTA00059191 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059192 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 323 EFTA00059193 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 324 EFTA00059194 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 325 EFTA00059195 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 326 EFTA00059196 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 327 EFTA00059197 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059198 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 329 EFTA00059199 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 330 EFTA00059200 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 331 EFTA00059201 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059202 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 333 mistakes are made in the log - but you also annotate that in the log. Like, you will put, okay, late entry. Because typically, if you say the log is done already, when you go back and make changes, you make changes for this reason alone. An investigator comes in, looks at it, and says, well, wait a minute, it looks like you’ve been playing, you went back and just changed the numbers. So, you can put in there, and you say, okay, late entry, explain what your change was, and what the mistake was. MR. HAYES: So, really, with this -- EFTA00059203 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 334 EFTA00059204 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 335 EFTA00059205 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 336 EFTA00059206 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 337 EFTA00059207 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 338 EFTA00059208 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 339 EFTA00059209 EFTA00059210 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 341 EFTA00059211 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 342 EFTA00059212 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 343 MR. HAYES: You know, if you, if you are a good trial lawyer, you know, allegedly a good trial lawyer, a lot of times, you are not supposed to be thorough. You are supposed to put an idea in the jury’s head, right? Where you can see they’re invulnerable, stay on that fucking idea, because if you are going to be thorough, you have to bring out something that you don’t want to bring out. You know, so you to speak to the things, but you know you got them. [Blank space] : Yeah. [Blank space] : So, this is an email that was received. Who’s [Blank space] ? EFTA00059213 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059214 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 345 EFTA00059215 EFTA00059216 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 347 EFTA00059217 EFTA00059218 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 349 EFTA00059219 EFTA00059220 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 351 EFTA00059221 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 352 EFTA00059222 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 353 EFTA00059223 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 354 EFTA00059224 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 355 EFTA00059225 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 356 EFTA00059226 EFTA00059227 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 358 EFTA00059228 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 359 EFTA00059229 EFTA00059230 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 361 EFTA00059231 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 362 EFTA00059232 EFTA00059233 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 364 EFTA00059234 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 365 EFTA00059235 EFTA00059236 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 367 EFTA00059237 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 368 EFTA00059238 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 369 EFTA00059239 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 370 working on getting the parts, but then got the parts again on the, some time on the 9th, claims he didn't work on it because he couldn't get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was going to work on it on the 10th, on that Saturday. to you is, did he notify anybody that he couldn’t get in there? Did he make any attempt to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey, I need to get into that office to get a part to do it, because if he had told the captain that, the captain would have got that office open for him. : Yeah. I agree with you. It’s a he says that the MCC was a different-. So, at any other BOP institution, in the country, that would have happened with, his experience taught him that, at the MCC, basically it could wait until tomorrow. MR. HAYES: They wait until tomorrow. ****: So, so that’s his opinion. But again, I'm going to pose a question. Who EFTA00059240 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 371 EFTA00059241 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 372 EFTA00059242 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 373 EFTA00059243 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 374 EFTA00059244 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 375 some follow up. I don't want to speak on it, but you know, if he had told him something on the 8th, you know, I don't know the conversations that were taking place between them. Like, where is that, and what is he saying? Right now, I'm responding to what he is saying, and it makes no sense. EFTA00059245 EFTA00059246 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 377 EFTA00059247 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 378 EFTA00059248 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 379 EFTA00059249 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059250 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059251 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 382 MR. HAYES: Oh, Christ. You got more EFTA00059252 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 383 EFTA00059253 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 384 EFTA00059254 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 385 coming in the room, when they got to the emergency room. Took a picture of Epstein being rolled in. And our - what do you call it? - and our staff. So, I talked to about that, and then, I had also told him that you know, there might be some staff, you know, because, and I didn't know where it was coming from, because the information was just coming out, you know, so quickly, and it was, like, where is this, you know, coming from? So, I called and made him aware, you know, told him about it when he came on Sunday. But the main one was because of the picture in the Post. Now, who is it that you suspect would have been leaking information to him? : I couldn't, I couldn't even tell. But I just was, you know, with this whole thing. You know, stuff would leak, had EFTA00059255 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 386 EFTA00059256 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 387 EFTA00059257 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 388 EFTA00059258 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 389 EFTA00059259 EFTA00059260 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 391 EFTA00059261 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 392 EFTA00059262 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 393 EFTA00059263 EFTA00059264 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 395 next one. It says, "Significant -- MR. HAYES: Don’t bring this guy in on another case. All right? If the next time this comes up, and he says, I'm going to bring this guy, don’t fucking do it. from the U.S. Marshal Service. Additional review revealed inmate Epstein departed the institution for a total of four court appearances, and only one of these occasions was an ARS change made within Sentry. It appears there is a culture of foregoing this vital function, due to the likelihood of the inmate returning from court. This lapse in procedure is a severe inmate accountability EFTA00059265 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 396 EFTA00059266 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 397 EFTA00059267 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 398 EFTA00059268 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 399 EFTA00059269 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 400 check, that they couldn't find it. So, I don't know. EFTA00059270 EFTA00059271 EFTA00059272 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 403 EFTA00059273 EFTA00059274 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 405 EFTA00059275 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 406 EFTA00059276 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 407 EFTA00059277 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 408 authorized to come in and interview people? So, I’ve done after actions. And there is a point where you come to it, where you, if it’s an OIG or FBI investigation, that I can't. I mean, I can't question certain people because it might impede an investigation. Like, if you are going to look at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you can't because most of the time, it’s been taken. So, I don’t know -. So, possibly from that memo, though, that was created? If they are not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I'm assuming they are not really supposed to be doing interviews. I mean, I don't know who authorized them to come in and do the investigation. I don't know. It was, you know, who set the parameters on it. I can't speak on that. EFTA00059278 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 409 EFTA00059279 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059280 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 411 EFTA00059281 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 412 No? And I just say this because I know, in reviewing the emails, a lot of this information was provided from you to , and was providing it to whomever, that were -- EFTA00059282 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 413 EFTA00059283 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 414 EFTA00059284 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 415 EFTA00059285 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 416 EFTA00059286 417 EFTA00059287 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 418 EFTA00059288 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 419 EFTA00059289 420 EFTA00059290 EFTA00059291 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 422 EFTA00059292 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 423 EFTA00059293 EFTA00059294 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 425 EFTA00059295 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 426 EFTA00059296 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 427 EFTA00059297 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 428 EFTA00059298 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 429 EFTA00059299 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 430 say, I want this, but once the law is passed, and it said, this is what you are getting, you don't -. We need to work with what we’ve got. No, and I understand that, that as, like, as far as the BOP goes. But I mean, the MCC, especially, you know, covering SDNY, and having such high-profile inmates. Was there - do you think that there could have been anything done better, though, by the BOP, to make sure that your institution, specifically MCC, was better staffed? You could - so, let’s go TDY - we couldn’t really, could TDY to a point, but then, there are other institutions around the agency that were, you know, the staffing was an issue. So, they can't send somebody out to help, you know? And then, it just brought down the finding. I mean, and getting people to clear your background. Not everybody can clear a background to work. I mean, yeah, we can go out in the street and say, hey, we got a job for you, but can you pass the guidelines? EFTA00059300 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 431 : -- along with me because it’s so long. “He was also an inmate who had risk factors for assault by other inmates, and did require careful selection for appropriate cellmates. Although these issues were noted, well documented, and communicated, a failure still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be placed in the cell alone. Although feasible for an inmate to effectuate suicide while housed with a cellmate, the odds of this occurring are significantly lowered when housed with another inmate.” The report continues. "It is apparent various staff at the institution made a point of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned cellmate. The captain personally instructed the lieutenants, individually. A mass email was distributed by psychology, and it is EFTA00059301 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 432 EFTA00059302 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 433 EFTA00059303 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 434 and counts, that -. Is that what you believe would have helped keep him alive today, if, you know, from the government perspective? I mean, again, I'm going to just say, I can't say what would have kept him alive, but I will say, you know, if people made their rounds, did their job, followed instructions that they were given, then it might have -. Could have minimized what, you know -- : -- you know, what happened. The risk. But I can't talk to, you know, if he would have done it or not done it. If that would have stopped him. Now, as far as this last sentence, what they wrote, "After that moment, it is clear there was no additional written directive, or fail safe system established to ensure inmate Epstein would have a cellmate going forward." What do you think could have been done, and who should have done it? So, directives and the information was conveyed to people verbally, documented on forms, on what you are supposed EFTA00059304 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 435 EFTA00059305 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 436 EFTA00059306 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 437 EFTA00059307 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 438 EFTA00059308 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 439 EFTA00059309 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 440 EFTA00059310 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 441 had known that, hey, you know what? These names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at the same time, maybe it would have been a different thought process. And was it possible - and maybe you discussed this - was it possible that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have replaced -? Did they have the ability to replace Reyes, if they wanted to, or did they have to come up the chain of command, for the chain of command to tell them who the new inmate -? : They were instructed, hey, let us know when - where he's to have a cellmate at all time - and to notify, let someone know. Because again, due to the individual that he was, you just don't want to throw anybody. : Okay. But doesn't that kind of hinder them from taking action? Let’s say, at that point on that day, you are not in the institution, was there, I understand. There was an acting warden there. You had the executive staff there. EFTA00059311 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 442 EFTA00059312 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 443 EFTA00059313 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00059314 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 445 EFTA00059315 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 446 EFTA00059316 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 447 EFTA00059317 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 448 EFTA00059318 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 449 EFTA00059319 EFTA00059320 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 451 EFTA00059321 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 452 EFTA00059322 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 453 ## CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of EFTA00059323