Draft: efta00110989

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Phone: (818) 431-5800¶

¶

1	: The recorder is on. MR. My
2	name is with the U.S.
3	Department of Justice Office of the Inspector
4	General New York Field Office and these are my
5	All right. credentials. This interview with
6	federal Bureau of Prisons lieutenant
7	is being conducted as part
8	of an official U.S. Department of Justice
9	Office of the Inspector General investigation.
10	Today's date is July 12, 2021, and the time is
11	1:06 p.m. This interview is being conducted at
12	the federal correctional institution Danbury,
13	This is the located in Danbury, Connecticut.
14	What is it the -? training center.
15	: SIPE Center. MR.
16	MR. SIPE Center? :
17	: Yeah. MR.
18	: What does it stand for do MR.
19	you know?
20	Mm : MR.
21	: SPI - whatever. MR. It's the
22	training center.
23	: SIPE. MR. Yeah.
24	MR. It's the training Yeah. :
25	center right outside of the FCI Danbury on the

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4
1	Also present is DOJ OIG FCI Danbury property.
2	. This interview Special Agent
3	will be recorded by me, SSA
4	Could everyone please identify themselves for
5	the record and spell your last name. To start,
6	again I am DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent
7
8	: I am Special Agent MR.
9
10	: I am Lieutenant MR.
11
12	This is Thank you sir. MR. :
13	an official DOJ OIG investigation to the death
14	of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding
15	circumstances, and you're being asked to
16	voluntarily provide answers to our questions.
17	Will you agree to a voluntary interview with
18	the DOJ OIG?
19	: Yes. MR.
20	Thank you sir. This is a MR. :
21	form that we have for our voluntary interviews.
22	We give this to everybody that's voluntary just
23	so you know that it is voluntary. You know you
24	can stop the interview any time. You don't
25	have to answer our questions. You can leave.

1 I'm going to read it to you for the record. 2 It's United States Department of Justice Office 3 of the Inspector General Warnings and 4 Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide 5 Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are 6 being asked to provide information as part of 7 an investigation being conducted by the Office 8 of the Inspector General. This investigation 9 is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 10 General Act as amended. This investigation 11 pertains to job performance failure and 12 security failure. This is a voluntary 13 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to 14 answer questions. No disciplinary action will 15 be taken against you if you choose not to 16 answer questions. Any statement you furnish 17 may be used as evidence in any future criminal 18 proceedings or agency disciplinary proceedings 19 or both. Then there's the waiver which says I 20 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 21 above and I am willing to make a statement and 22 answer questions. No promises or threats have 23 been made to me and no pressure or coercion of 24 any kind has been used against me. And there's 25 the - right here - employee signature and¶

1	employee's name. You want to read that
2	Feel free to. If you agree just yourself.
3	sign
4	: So it says job performance MR.
5	failure and security failure according to-.
6	: That's for everybody. MR.
7	We're giving that - that's just the blanket
8	statement we're providing to every single
9	person that we interview.
10	MR. -: .mm
11	MR. It doesn't necessarily :
12	mean that you've done anything wrong. It's
13	just that's what the investigation is looking
14	You know security failure of the into.
15	institution - job performance failure. Because
16	someone died in this matter. And looking into
17	the surrounding circumstances with it.
18	Everybody's being provided that same -
19	: Okay. MR.
20
21	-- that same information. MR. :
22	Okay. So I just singed my name as the Special
23	Agent. And I'm printing my name. Again this
24	is
25	: This is Special Agent MR.

1	I am signing as a witness.
2	: Okay. MR. And Special Agent
3	, if you don't mind, just place the date
4	Again it is July 12, 2021, and the and time.
5	time is 1:10 p.m. now. And the place is FCI
6	Danbury Training Center. Thank you, sir.
7	Did you understand that form? Okay.
8	: Yeah. MR.
9	: Okay. MR. Is there Cool.
10	any other questions you want to ask about that
11	though?
12	: no. MR.
13	MR. No? :
14	: I mean it's voluntary is that MR.
15	right?
16	MR. Exactly. Yeah. :
17	You don't have to answer. Voluntary. And
18	again that job performance failure - security
19	failure that's something we're telling
20	everybody that that's the purpose of our
21	interviews is to figure out -
22	: Okay. MR.
23	MR. -- what went wrong and :
24	all that kind of stuff with regard to this
25	Before starting the interview, I'd matter.

¶

¶

¶

¶

¶

¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14
1	What is the difference between own knowledge.
2	a 9 lieutenant and an 11 lieutenant?
3	: Pretty much you could - MR.
4	if you at 9 you can't run the institution.
5	Because it's not a higher rank. So like 11 or
6	the only ones who can without a captain.
7	But a 9 you can't be the You're the highest.
8	highest.
9	: So does that mean like as MR.
10	far as like being the ops lieutenant versus the
11	activities' lieutenant?
12	: Nah. You could be ops as a MR.
13	9.
14	MR. Okay. :
15	: But - but -. MR.
16	MR. So like acting captain :
17	you mean?
18	: No. Say like if it's a 9, MR.
19	Four to twelve or it's like evening watch.
20	The 11 is the highest authority. midnight.
21	Okay. MR. :
22	: As a 9 you can't do that. MR.
23	You have to have 11 or above for 9 to be in
24	authority.
25	MR. Okay. :

1	: Yeah. MR.
2	: So you can be an ops MR.
3	lieutenant but somebody else has to be there
4	that's higher than you?
5	: Yeah. If you a 9 yeah. MR.
6	: Okay. MR. Do you recall what
7	shift you worked on August 9th and 10th of
8	2019?
9	: August 9th? MR. What day was
10	that?
11	It's August 9th - sorry. MR. :
12	We'll just talk about August 9th. August 9th,
13	2019 that was the day before Epstein was found
14	It was a Friday. dead.
15	: So the Friday. MR. I probably
16	was day watch.
17	MR. Okay. I'm going to give :
18	you the daily roster from that date just do you
19	can reprint it.
20	: Yeah. MR.
21	MR. Um anytime I give you a :
22	document - you don't have to do it right away -
23	but you can - I'm just going to have you
24	initial and date each document. It's just for
25	the record we can say that's the document you

1	looked at. And we don't like replace
2	You know what I mean? something.
3	: Mm-hm. MR.
4	: Um so on that can you MR.
5	find your name and see where it is that you
6	worked just to verify?
7	: Yeah. I did overtime from MR.
8	6:00 to 2:00.
9	: From 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 MR.
10	p.m.?
11	: MR. Yeah.
12	MR. And that was on August :
13	9th?
14	: MR. Yeah.
15	Do you know if you - MR. :
16	there were the specific times that you worked?
17	I know for instance the individual that was the
18	activities' lieutenant after you. She didn't
19	start until 4:00 p.m. because she had her
20	regular time shift until 4:00 p.m.
21	: Mm-hm. MR.
22	MR. Would that mean that you :
23	had worked until 4:00? Or would you still have
24	stopped at 2:00?
25	: Uh I don't know. MR.

1	: Do you usually have to MR.
2	wait until the new activities' lieutenant comes
3	on board?
4	was -. But MR. Mm that's
5	she wasn't a lieutenant here though.
6	: No. MR. She was an SIS, but
7	she got I guess temporarily promoted. At least
8	for that day to be able to be the activities'
9	lieutenant. But she was in attorney conference
10	until 4:00 p.m. And she didn't start as the
11	activities' lieutenant until 4:00 p.m.
12	: I don't remember. But I know MR.
13	we usually - even though it says 8:00 to 4:00,
14	we usually do 6:00 to 2:00, 2:00 to 10:00
15	anyway.
16	MR. Yeah. :
17	: We relieve people early. MR.
18	MR. Right. And my :
19	understanding is it's for traffic purposes.
20	: So if the 9th I would have MR.
21	She wouldn't have to stay until came on then.
22	I don't know. 4:00.
23	MR. How does that typically :
24	Would it be - do you have work though I guess.
25	to be relieved before you can leave?

1 MR. Mm you mean for me? 2 MR. : Yeah. Like if you're the 3 activities' lieutenant at the MCC back in 4 August of 2019. Are you allowed to leave 5 before the new activities' lieutenant takes 6 over? Or do you have to wait until she's done? 7 I'm just trying to help refresh your memory if 8 you can -. 9 MR. : I'm not sure. I know how we 10 do it is someone day I got you. I'll cover 11 you. Then we relieved. 12 MR. : But you don't 13 specifically remember this date? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : Not the fact that like 16 Epstein died the day after. Does that help you 17 like kind of refresh your memory of what your 18 involvement may have been? 19 MR. : I know I was doing day watch. 20 I was doing day watch. I do know that. But as 21 far as who relieved and all that. No. I don't 22 remember that. 23 MR. : All right. We can 24 probably just grab your time and attendance 25 records then later just to try to¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19
1	(Indiscernible * *00:12:34) that down. But you
2	just can't remember at this point?
3	: What you asked me was I MR.
4	there?
5	: Yeah-yeah-yeah. Just I MR.
6	mean from the 2:00 to 4:00. You don't remember
7	if you would have - you had to wait until
8	was actually in place before you left or
9	not.
10	MR. Nah. I don't know. I could
11	have been there at 4:00 because I left at 2:00.
12	I'm not sure.
13	MR. Fair enough. Okay. :
14	: MR. Yeah.
15	MR. So you either worked :
16	until 2:00 p.m. or 4:00 p.m. you just don't
17	recall.
18	: Yeah. MR.
19	MR. All right. And who did :
20	you - on that date - who would have you
21	primarily worked with?
22	: Mm I don't know. Because MR.
23	Friday -. I don't know why I'm doing overtime
24	on Friday. I'm trying to think. And is
25	normally not the ops lieutenant though either.

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 MR. : Is that because he was a 9? MR. is 11. He's SHU lieutenant. MR. : At that time was the SHU lieutenant. MR. : Oh no-no-no was the SHU lieutenant. Okay. So if I'm on Friday and Saturday, then -. MR. : Well here if -. MR. : Maybe. I don't know. You have my what's her name records? MR. : This is Saturday. So I'm giving you the daily assignment roster. MR. : I'm thinking this is my day off. I'm thinking Friday was my day off. So I came in for the overtime on Friday. If I'm on Friday and Saturday, then I would be ops. That's what I'm thinking. MR. : Did you work on Saturday? MR. : Saturday I was off. MR. : Okay. So you're not on that list that I just gave you for Saturday? MR. : No. I should be on day watch.¶

¶

1	: Mm-hm. MR.
2	: I'm just trying to -. MR.
3	When we talk to you, we just need to lock down
4	What time were you there until? each person.
5	: I don't know. MR.
6	: We have specific questions MR.
7	about what happened during the day. But if
8	you're not there during the day during that
9	specific time -.
10	MR. : Some questions might not
11	apply to you.
12	: Apply to you. MR. That's what
13	we're trying to figure out. So what time were
14	you there until.
15	: I mean so you want to ask me MR.
16	questions up until 4:00 is what you're saying?
17	MR. We'll ask you :
18	specifically questions -.
19	: Well you can do it but if I MR.
20	don' remember I just say I don't remember.
21	That's fine. MR. Yeah. You :
22	just don't. but at this point you just don't
23	know if you were there until 4:00.
24	: No. MR.
25	MR. Um and you don't remember :

1	relieving Or relieving you.
2	: no. MR.
3	: And do you remember being MR.
4	relieved by anyone?
5	: no. MR.
6	: No? All right. MR. But I
7	guess then that goes back to my original
8	Do you need to be relieved by question.
9	someone in order to leave?
10	: Um normally. It depends. MR.
11	MR. Can there be just an ops :
12	lieutenant and no activities' lieutenant on
13	during the day?
14	: Yeah. That could be any day. MR.
15	MR. Okay. :
16	: Yeah. MR.
17	So it's just - there's MR. :
18	no-. these are genuine questions. We don't
19	know the answers to these. So that's not like
20	abnormal to have like just like a two-hour gap
21	where there's no activities' lieutenant?
22	: No. We was going a lot of MR.
23	work up until this. We were doing a lot of
24	work. So some days you'll be there. I'm quite
25	sure looking at the records, you'll see my name

¶

1 institution. Running the institution. 2 MR. : And what does a round 3 consist of as a lieutenant? 4 MR. : Going up to the unit. 5 Speaking to the officer. If you want, go to 6 unit team. Do the tiers. See what's going on. 7 MR. : Now at that time, did 8 lieutenant -? When you say go do tiers. Were 9 Lieutenants responsible for conducting rounds 10 of inmates as well? Like you know walking up 11 and down the tiers to make sure? 12 MR. : Something like that. I mean 13 that's - are we - the lieutenants responsible 14 for that? 15 MR. : Yeah. I know that that's 16 the CO's primary responsibility. But when you 17 are conducting a round in like a unit, 18 specifically we'll talk about the SHU. If you 19 visit the SHU, and on this date, there was no 20 SHU lieutenant. Correct? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : So if you were visiting 23 the SHU, are you responsible to conduct any 24 rounds of the tiers as a lieutenant? 25 MR. : Yeah. The lieutenant has to¶

1	make a round in SHU each shift.
2	: So when I say - but when MR.
3	you visit the SHU, is it just visiting the SHU?
4	Or do you - I Checking in with the officers?
5	mean - checking in with the COs or is it
6	actually also doing a round of - where the
7	inmates are located and looking in their cells?
8	: I mean yeah, you're supposed MR.
9	to do a round.
10	MR. So that -. Okay. :
11	: You mean exactly what do you MR.
12	supposed to specifically do?
13	I guess what I'm MR. Yeah. :
14	asking is what does a lieutenant round in the
15	SHU consist of?
16	: I don't know. I know for me, MR.
17	I used to like to go down the tiers.
18	To actually check on the MR. :
19	inmates.
20	: Yeah. MR.
21	So you're actually doing MR. :
22	-?
23	: Do a whole complete round. MR.
24	MR. So you're actually doing :
25	a round of the inmates not just doing a round

1 in the SHU to say hey are you guys good with 2 the officers. 3 MR. : Nah. Unless something 4 happens. Like if something happens you know. 5 They just say you all right - it was a BA. All 6 right. I'll be back or something like that. 7 But. 8 MR. : Right-right. You mean if 9 you got called out or something like that - you 10 needed the run. 11 MR. : That or they call you. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Something specific to a 14 specific tale or -. 15 MR. : Yeah-yeah. But were you 16 responsible - and this is just in general not 17 just specifically you? It's any lieutenant. 18 If there's no SHU lieutenant responsible to do 19 a round on day watch of the inmates when they 20 visit the SHU. 21 MR. : I'm not sure. 22 MR. : You're not sure. But you 23 did. 24 MR. : That day? 25 MR. : No I mean just in¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28
1	general. Like when you would visit the SHU you
2	would do that?
3	: Yeah. Say like if I fill in MR.
4	or whatever. And there's no SHU lieutenant to
5	say hey you got to make a round. All right.
6	Or you have activities do it or whatever.
7	: So ops lieutenant tells MR.
8	you to do the round?
9	: Anyone could say hey I'm MR.
10	going up there or hey I got the round or
11	whatever.
12	Does a lieutenant have to MR. :
13	do a round on that shift?
14	: That would be yeah you have MR.
15	to do a round.
16	MR. So at least one Okay. :
17	lieutenant on day watch on August 9, 2019, had
18	to do a round in the SHU of the inmates?
19	: On day watch? MR.
20	Yeah. MR. :
21	: Uh yeah. MR.
22	MR. What about night watch :
23	and morning watch? Do they have to do it on
24	those?
25	: Night watch and morning watch MR.

¶

1	: And that's because yeah MR.
2	there's only - for the morning watch is there
3	only an ops lieutenant?
4	: Yep. MR.
5	: So you were the first one MR.
6	in on that day? And you said you arrived when?
7	: Um 6:00. MR.
8	: 6:00 a.m. MR. Okay. And you
9	said you just don't recall who replaced you or
10	if you stayed until 4:00. Correct?
11	: Yeah. Did you look at the MR.
12	video?
13	We didn't - haven't had a MR. :
14	reason to yet. I just assumed you would have
15	remembered.
16	: MR. I don't remember. No.
17	Okay. MR. :
18	: It was '19. MR.
19	MR. Yeah-yeah-yeah. No just :
20	because of the - you know this was probably one
21	of the biggest things that's ever happened.
22	: Yeah but that's why I'm like MR.
23	why are they asking about it now? That's why
24	I'm like -.
25	MR. Yeah. I mean now is just :

1 because there's things that have happened in 2 the past month that now is creating a -- 3 MR. : Oh with the case. 4 MR. : Yeah. That we now have 5 to interview a ton of people to be able to find 6 out who was there, what happened, and all that 7 kind of stuff. 8 MR. : Yeah. But I'm not sure about 9 the time on that. 10 MR. : All right. And are you 11 familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Did you ever work or 14 visit the SHU while Epstein was assigned to the 15 SHU in July and August 2019? 16 MR. : Probably yeah. 17 MR. : Did Epstein have a 18 cellmate when he was in the SHU? 19 MR. : Up until that day, right? 20 MR. : Yes. And do you know if 21 there was a reason why Epstein was assigned a 22 cellmate? 23 MR. : In SHU you're supposed to be 24 double bunked. 25 MR. : Okay. So -.¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32
1	: Even if you don't have the MR.
2	whole prior thing before.
3	: So everybody in the SHU MR.
4	is supposed to be?
5	: Not everybody. MR. But you got
6	But he was supposed to have a certain cases.
7	bunk.
8	: So as far as who would - MR.
9	who wouldn't be assigned a cellmate?
10	: House alone, rec alone MR.
11	inmates. You know hunger strike inmates,
12	NPOs
13	MR. But Epstein was one of :
14	those inmates that should have had a cellmate?
15	: Yeah. MR. He was a regular
16	inmate. Yeah.
17	MR. Okay. Um are you aware :
18	that Epstein had attempted to commit suicide on
19	July 23, 2019?
20	: Yeah. MR.
21	And were you one of the MR. :
22	responding officers to that?
23	: No. MR.
24	Were you - did you have MR. :
25	any involvement with it?

1 MR. : That incident? No. 2 MR. : No. Do you know what 3 transpired? 4 MR. : They say he put something 5 around his neck. In his cell. And that was 6 it. 7 MR. : Did you ever hear any 8 rumors that his cell mate may have tried to 9 harm him? 10 MR. : Oh yeah. You're talking 11 about um -. Yeah. I heard about that. Yeah. 12 MR. : What did you hear about 13 that? 14 MR. : That it was a ploy for him to 15 get (Indiscernible *00:22:43). Something like 16 that. 17 MR. : All right. So did you -? 18 Is your understanding that he actually did try 19 to harm himself? Or was it your understanding 20 that his cell mate tried to harm him? 21 MR. : You're talking about the 22 rumor? 23 MR. : Yeah. What is your 24 understanding of -- 25 MR. : The rumor was the guy --¶

¶

1	: Okay. And what happens MR.
2	on suicide watch? Is that outside of the SHU?
3	: Yeah. MR.
4	: And then after you get MR.
5	placed on suicide watch. Is that a temporary
6	thing and then you get moved over to psych
7	observation?
8	: Not all the time. MR. No.
9	That's up to psych. Psych makes that call.
10	Do you - are you aware if MR. :
11	Epstein was outside of the SHU and on suicide
12	watch or psych observation for approximately
13	one week?
14	: I know he was definitely on MR.
15	Because I remember seeing him. there.
16	: You saw him there? MR.
17	: MR. Yeah.
18	: MR. Um is that because you
19	were doing rounds? Or why did you see him
20	there?
21	: I had to - because I'm the MR.
22	one who does the showers.
23	Okay. MR. :
24	: For suicide inmates. MR. On
25	psych watch if you're down there. So he was

1	down there one day - probably a couple days.
2	But I know I took him to the shower one time.
3	Yeah.
4	MR. Okay. So you had some :
5	interaction with him.
6	MR. Yeah. :
7	MR. While he was in suicide :
8	watch.
9	MR. Yeah. Suicide watch. :
10	MR. Okay. And I just thought :
11	- I thought you were only on suicide watch for
12	And then after that it was like 24 hours.
13	called psych observation. Is that not your
14	understanding?
15	It's up to psych. MR. :
16	MR. Okay. :
17	: That's a psych call. MR.
18	But is it in the same - MR. :
19	they're in the same location. Correct?
20	Yeah but people who are on MR. :
21	suicide watch longer than 24 hours.
22	MR. Okay. :
23	MR. Yeah. :
24	MR. So your understanding the :
25	whole time he was there it was called suicide

¶

1	: You're naked the whole MR.
2	time? And you know if Epstein was naked that
3	whole time?
4	: He had a smock and a -. MR.
5	Yeah. He didn't have no clothes.
6	: He didn't have clothes MR.
7	when he was on suicide watch?
8	: You can't have clothes on MR.
9	suicide watch.
10	MR. Okay. All right. So :
11	does it sound right that he would have been
12	removed about a week later around July 30th.
13	Does that sound like a date --
14	: I don't know. MR.
15	MR. -- or you're not sure? :
16	: Mm-hm. MR.
17	MR. Okay. Did you ever :
18	receive any instructions from anyone with
19	regard to Epstein being assigned a cellmate
20	after he came back from suicide watch?
21	: I'm not sure. MR.
22	MR. You don't remember any :
23	verbal conversations or anything like that?
24	: No. MR.
25	MR. All right. I'm going to :

¶

EFTA00111027

1	Do you remember getting that?
2	: Yeah. MR.
3	: Okay. MR. Cool. And then do
4	you recall -? So you are aware that he needed
5	a cellmate then. Correct? You already said
6	that you knew he needed one because he was a
7	regular inmate. Right?
8	: Yeah. MR. But I don't know what
9	this is at 12:30 the 30th right?
10	Yeah 7:30 - so yeah. MR. :
11	: Oh it was 7:30 July 30th? MR.
12	So he got off on July 30th?
13	MR. Correct. :
14	: Okay. MR.
15	MR. Placed back in the SHU :
16	and required a cellmate.
17	: Okay. MR.
18	MR. And just before we :
19	forget. Do you mind just initialing and dating
20	each one of these documents just so that they
21	don't start piling up? And as well as that
22	email. Thank you, sir. Now do you remember
23	having any conversations with anyone else like
24	verbal. Like or anybody regarding the
25	need for him to have a cellmate?

1	MR. No. :
2	MR. Because, I'm assuming, he :
3	was the most high-profile if not one of the
4	most high-profile inmates at the time.
5	Correct?
6	MR. Yeah. :
7	MR. So would that be :
8	something that they would - people would
9	usually communicate with the activities and the
10	ops lieutenant about?
11	MR. I mean if you got the email. :
12	MR. Okay. :
13	MR. Yeah. :
14	You got a follow-up that MR. :
15	you wanted to ask something?
16	MR. We'll finish up on this. :
17	Because it's going back one.
18	MR. No-no. Please. Go :
19	ahead.
20	So you mentioned that you had MR. :
21	interacted with Epstein when he was on suicide
22	You took him for his showers. watch.
23	MR. Yeah. :
24	MR. How was the interactions with :
25	him?

1	: You know, cuff up, take him MR.
2	to the shower.
3	: Did you ever talk to him? MR.
4	: Yeah. MR.
5	: Was he pleasant? MR. Were there
6	any issues with that?
7	: He was saying hey, while I'm MR.
8	down here, pretty much he asked why he was down
9	I said well, he was like yeah, I'm not here.
10	And you know let me suicidal, such-and-such.
11	talk to psych so I could get off this. I don't
12	think he liked it.
13	: This was immediately after MR.
14	the July 23rd?
15	: I don't know exactly what day MR.
16	But you know it was around there. it was.
17	: Got it. MR.
18	We're going to follow-up MR. :
19	with some of those more lines of questioning
20	later on in the interview. Um so you don't
21	recall though receiving specific instructions
22	from Captain or anyone else with regard
23	You just - you do know he needed to Epstein?
24	one and you did get the email?
25	: These come all the time. Any MR.

1 inmate comes off of watch, they send it out. 2 MR. : And should everyone know 3 if someone comes off of watch that they are 4 required to have a cellmate? 5 MR. : I'm not sure. I mean that's¶

6 what they do. They come out. Anyone comes off 7 suicide watch, you put them in with a cellmate. 8 MR. : Yeah. And that's pretty 9 general, common knowledge. Correct? And where 10 do you learn that? Is that from your daily 11 operations? Or do you learn that in training 12 as well?¶

13 MR. : I don't know. I guess it's 14 daily operations.¶

15 MR. : Okay. But most people 16 should know that a person coming off of suicide 17 watch is required to have a cellmate.¶

18 MR. : Uh I mean it depends. I 19 don't know. I know we get these emails though. 20 They send them out any time an inmate comes 21 off. You try to put them with a cellmate. But 22 then again like I said in the SHU, it's you 23 know. Because even if they come off suicide 24 watch, they don't -. Say like they come off 25 they stay in SHU for a year. They have to have¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE	44
1	a cellmate for a year. You understand what I'm
2	So as far as the notice we get, but do saying?
3	everyone know that? I'm not sure about that.
4	: But you knew. MR.
5	: Yeah. MR.
6	: How did you know though? MR.
7	: I got the email. MR.
8	: Okay. MR. So, your knowledge
9	is from the email, but earlier, you said that
10	anybody in the SHU, anyway, needs to a cell
11	mate?
12	: Yeah. MR.
13	MR. All right. So, he had :
14	basically two requirements to him. One, there
15	was the email that he received; also, the fact
16	that he was in the SHU, and he didn't have any
17	of those special requirements, like, he was
18	going to harm someone else, or something like
19	that, that he should have had a cellmate?
20	: Right. MR.
21	MR. All right. And do you :
22	know if you ever communicated that to anybody,
23	when you visited the SHU in July or August of
24	2019?
25	MR. Hmm. I'm not sure.

1 MR. : Like, the people that 2 worked in the SHU, would have you would have 3 been as the activities' lieutenant, if you're 4 doing a round in there. Is that something that 5 you would address? 6 MR. : Bring up? Yeah. If I - yeah 7 - but if he had a - one - if he had a cellmate, 8 though. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : Yeah. Bring something up if 11 they didn't. Uh-huh. 12 MR. : So, you'd only bring it 13 up if you knew he didn't have one? 14 MR. : So, like, if you say, hey, 15 guys, how many single cells I have? Such and 16 such. Hey, what's going on? Hey, well, this is 17 the reason. Yeah. 18 MR. : And is that something - 19 when you would visit the SHU - is that 20 something you would ask? How many single cells 21 do you have? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Is that a like one of the 24 check-the-box things? Does everybody that 25 visits the SHU¶

¶

1	: -- when you do your MR.
2	rounds.
3	: -- you do the rounds, you MR.
4	only say it if you know that someone got - a
5	new come in. Okay, you got space for him. No.
6	Right now, we've got to put him in a single
7	cell, or something like that.
8	: Okay. MR. And were you ever
9	the SHU lieutenant?
10	: At MCC? MR.
11	MR. Yeah. :
12	: I don't think so. I was MR.
13	never SHU lieutenant.
14	MR. Okay. But do you :
15	remember ever having any conversations with
16	anyone in the SHU --
17	: No. MR.
18	-- at the MCC about MR. :
19	Epstein and his cellmate requirement?
20	: No. MR.
21	MR. No? All right. So, :
22	referring to the duty assignment roster, who
23	were the MCC's supervisor on duty, with
24	responsibility for overseeing the SHU on August
25	9, 2019, when you were working?

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 MR. : It would be me and 2 MR. : So, the two of you would 3 be responsible? 4 MR. : On day watch. Yeah. 5 MR. : Okay. And then, would it 6 be the same thing for the shift after you? 7 Would that be the activities' lieutenant and 8 the ops lieutenant? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : And is that because, when 11 the SHU lieutenant is not there, activities' 12 lieutenant and ops lieutenant always have 13 oversight of the SHU? 14 MR. : Well, I told you we have to 15 make a round. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : In SHU. Yeah. 18 MR. : But that would be the 19 lieutenants - they would be the lieutenants 20 that would have oversight over the SHU, 21 correct? 22 MR. : Yeah. Pretty much. 23 MR. : Okay. On August 9th, 24 what communications did you have with any of 25 the other lieutenants with regard to Epstein¶

1 being housed with the MCC, or the MCC SHU? Can 2 you recall? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : And again, thinking back, 5 this is like one of the biggest things that's 6 ever happened when you were there, this guy 7 dies. Can you remember any conversations you 8 had the day before, with anyone, with regards 9 to Epstein? 10 MR. : I just know that he used to 11 come legal all the time. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Attorney conference, pretty 14 much the whole day. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : And that's about it. 17 MR. : And about what time would 18 he be moved to attorney conference? 19 MR. : Early. Like, probably 8:00 20 in the morning. 21 MR. : And who would be the 22 person that would move him there? 23 MR. : The SHU staff. Get him out 24 the SHU. 25 MR. : Okay.¶

1	He was in SHU. MR. :
2	And what would the - as MR. :
3	the activities' lieutenant, did you visit him
4	at all in attorney conference, or check on him?
5	Is that part of your round process?
6	It's not part of the rounds, MR. :
7	but if you see him in there, if you standing by
8	the elevators or something like that, yeah.
9	MR. Okay. :
10	But you're not - you don't MR. :
11	have to check. No.
12	All right. MR. Did anyone :
13	ever provide you with special instructions,
14	with regards to Epstein?
15	MR. Special instructions? :
16	MR. Yeah. :
17	Like? Something - no. MR. :
18	MR. No? :
19	MR. With special instructions? :
20	Like -?
21	Like, conversations with MR. :
22	Epstein, hey, make sure you do this. Just
23	Epstein, make sure this is going - you know?
24	Maybe "special" guess specific instructions.
25	isn't the right word --

1	: No. MR.
2	: -- but did anyone ever MR.
3	specifically say, you know, this is Epstein,
4	we've got to make sure we're doing this?
5	: MR. Hmm-mm. No. Not that I
6	recall.
7	: No? Did any lieutenants MR.
8	ever talk to you about Epstein's requirement to
9	have a cellmate?
10	I mean, it's not -. MR. Hmm-mm.
11	Like I said, we've got the email.
12	MR. Right. :
13	: There's no one saying, hey, MR.
14	by the way, (Indiscernible *00:36:07), and
15	didn't he have a cellmate up until then? I
16	think he had a cellmate since he got on the
17	So, I don't think there was a suicide watch.
18	lapse in it.
19	MR. Right. :
20	: Yeah. MR.
21	So, what about up until MR. :
22	then? You're saying, so --
23	: Right. MR. Yeah. The cellmate,
24	right?
25	MR. -- so, what is your :

¶

24 MR. : Count is for officers.¶

25 MR. : Okay. And you don't need¶

1 to oversee them as the lieutenant, or anything 2 like that? 3 MR. : You could take a count, but 4 usually, you're doing patrol, you're not doing 5 the count with the officers. 6 MR. : Right. So, in physically 7 presence in the SHU, the only time that the 8 lieutenant is involved is actually with rounds, 9 not with counts? 10 MR. : Not with counts. 11 MR. : Okay. And did you 12 conduct any rounds in the SHU, on August 9, 13 2019? 14 MR. : I'm not sure. I can't 15 recall. 16 MR. : You don't remember? 17 Again, you're placing yourself back on one of 18 the biggest incidences, and you know all this 19 circus that's been going on since that time. 20 MR. : Yeah, I know. 21 MR. : So, you can't really put 22 yourself back on that day of, like, hey, what 23 was my involvement with this, and did I -? 24 MR. : No. No. I had no 25 involvement with this.¶

¶

	55 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1	: Okay. MR. So, you didn't
2	speak to any of those people about Epstein
3	being required to have a celimate since his
4	celimate was gone?
5	: You're talking about that MR.
6	day?
7	: Yeah. MR.
8	: Or you're just saying -- MR.
9	: On the day that -- MR.
10	MR. I can't remember.
11	MR. -- okay. All right. The :
12	people that are in the SHU, are they
13	responsible for conducting counts and round
14	during their shift?
15	: Yes. MR.
16	MR. As far as the shift that :
17	you worked, on day watch, what is your
18	understanding of how many rounds and counts
19	they should have done?
20	: There's no counts on day MR.
21	watch.
22	MR. Okay. What about the :
23	rounds?
24	: The rounds, every - you're MR.
25	doing a certain shift, we go about. So, you do

	56 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1	one, say, like, 8:00 to 8:30, you do one. 8:30
2	to 9:00, you do one.
3	: So, every 30 minutes? MR.
4	: Every 30 minutes. MR. Not to
5	exceed 40 minutes. They're regular rounds.
6	: Okay. MR. And you're
7	supposed to do one of those rounds with them,
8	but you can't recall whether you did or not?
9	: No. MR. We're not supposed to do
10	rounds with them. No.
11	You're supposed to just MR. :
12	do your own round?
13	: Yeah. MR.
14	MR. Okay. :
15	: Do our round in SHU. MR.
16	And can you recall if you MR. :
17	did your round in SHU?
18	: No, I can't. MR.
19	MR. You can't recall? Would :
20	it be abnormal if you didn't?
21	: I can't recall. MR.
22	You can't recall if it MR. :
23	would be abnormal if you didn't?
24	: If I didn't do the round? MR.
25	MR. Right. :

1	: Would it be abnormal? I mean, MR.
2	I'm not the SHU lieutenant. That's what I'm
3	saying.
4	: But there's no SHU MR.
5	lieutenant, you said, that, you know, you or
6	So, I'm saying, would be responsible.
7	would it be abnormal if you didn't do it? So,
8	would you normally have done it? I know you
9	said you're responsible for it.
10	: No. MR. The lieutenants are
11	responsible, but if a Monday through Friday, if
12	a SHU lieutenant is there, there's no reason
13	for me to go up there.
14	MR. But there's no SHU :
15	lieutenant.
16	: Right. MR. So, but I don't
17	recall if I did a round or not. No.
18	MR. Okay. But the last :
19	I'm saying, would it question wasn't that.
20	have been abnormal if you didn't do one? I know
21	you can't recall it --
22	: Yeah. MR.
23	MR. but would you normally
24	have done it, if there's no SHU lieutenant?
25	: Yeah. MR.

¶

¶

	60 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1	and retrieve those individuals from the SHU, or
2	does the SHU staff bring them to R&D?
3	: It depends. If it's busy, MR.
4	you say, hey, I need help, they go up and help
5	If not, the SHU crew, all right, take you out.
6	them down.
7	: So, if it were at a non MR.
8	busy traditional way, who would have been the
9	people on that roster?
10	: The SHU crew. MR.
11	And who on that day? MR. :
12	: You mean, for the court MR.
13	movements?
14	Like, what time? Yeah. MR. :
15	First of all, I guess I should say.
16	: It depends - that's what I'm MR.
17	saying - so, it depends on if they're going to
18	Brooklyn, or wherever, you start early at 6:00.
19	So, that would morning watch or day watch.
20	So, it would be one or MR. :
21	the other? And does not - let's say if it was
22	8:00 a.m., who would have it been?
23	: The day watch crew. MR.
24	And who was on day watch MR. :
25	that day?

¶

1	from his attorney visit." So, does that
2	refresh your memory? Did you have any
3	conversations with
4	: No. MR.
5	: Who would have made MR.
6	aware that Reyes was going WAB?
7	: He could see it on the MR.
8	They send a sheet up the night before. roster.
9	: So, if that's not on the MR.
10	night before, if on the night before, there's
11	no WAB - and this is at 1:50 p.m. that this
12	notification was made note - if there's no WAB
13	Well first of all what's WAB stand for?
14	: With All Belongings. MR.
15	And if WAB is not next to MR. :
16	Reyes' name on the night before, the August 8th
17	roster, how would have he become aware at
18	around 1:50? Would normally the court call
19	R&D, and R&D pass that information along?
20	: R&D could have called him. MR.
21	MR. So, would R&D call SHU :
22	directly, or would they typically call the ops
23	or activities' lieutenant?
24	: They call the SHU. MR.
25	MR. They do call SHU :

1	directly? They wouldn't call you guys, and you
2	would have to the pass information on?
3	: No. MR.
4	: Okay. So, is it your MR.
5	belief, then, that if it's that, in fact, what
6	happened, if Reyes went to court, and then he
7	Just tell me, what is your became WAB?
8	understanding --
9	: I'm not sure how that one. MR.
10	MR. -- of how that would :
11	work?
12	: I'm not sure about that. MR.
13	MR. I'm not saying, Yeah. :
14	specifically, how he got it. What would be the
15	typical way that would work? If an inmate
16	: If an inmate -. MR.
17	-- goes to work -- MR. :
18	: MR. Mm-hmm.
19	: -- and then is released. MR.
20	: MR. Mm-hmm.
21	: How does that process MR.
22	work? Once that inmate is released, what
23	happens from that point, for the court, how do
24	they make the notifications known to the MCC,
25	all the way down to where that inmate was

1	housed? Specifically, this one in the SHU.
2	Hey, that guy's not R&D. MR. :
3	coming back.
4	MR. Okay. :
5	: MR. Yeah.
6	And then, would they MR. :
7	typically say, now WAB, would that be the words
8	that they would use, or would they say, he's
9	not coming back?
10	The WAB is MR. Either/or. :
11	something that's on the roster.
12	So, is WAB MR. Okay. :
13	specific to the roster, or is WAS also if he
14	was called and told?
15	I don't know. I'm not sure. MR. :
16	Like, hey, I've seen it before on the roster.
17	this is the court list. It says WAB.
18	And I'm saying -- Right. MR. :
19	MR. Yeah. :
20	-- in this circumstance, MR.
21	if there is no WAS --
22	I'm not sure. MR. :
23	MR. -- next to Reyes' name :
24	I'm not sure. MR. :
25	-- okay. But you didn't MR. :

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 have any conversations with 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : No? And you seem pretty 4 confident with that. Not like I can't recall. 5 You did not have any conversations with 6 7 MR. : Yeah, I had no conversations 8 with him. 9 MR. : What about with 10 Did you have any conversations with abou-11 Reyes going WAB or not coming back? 12 MR. Pfft, I can't recall that, 13 either. 14 MR. : Did you know that Reyes 15 had left that day for court? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : So then, therefore, did 18 you not know that he was not coming back? 19 MR. : No, I didn't know. No. 20 MR. : Okay. And you don't 21 remember if you actually did a round in the SHU 22 to see that he wasn't there? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : So, can you recall any 25 conversations you had that day about Reyes?¶

¶

1	R&D over there, right?
2	: No. MR.
3	: No. MR. But R&D creates the
4	And what do they do with that court list.
5	court list?
6	: They send it out to all the MR.
7	units. So, you get one. If you're a unit
8	officer, you'll get it and say, okay, I got
9	three guys leaving, because it says WAB. So,
10	you say, hey, wake up, we're packing up, and
11	leaving.
12	: They send the whole list, or MR.
13	they just did the email saying, hey, these are
14	the inmates leaving from here?
15	: Yeah. MR. I've never seen an
16	email. I've just seen the list.
17	: Okay. MR. And it's just, like, a
18	generic email that goes out to everyone?
19	: It's a call list. MR.
20	But - sorry, I want to MR. :
21	make sure that I understood what you just said
22	- is it provided by email, or is it provided by
23
24	: I've never seen it provided MR.
25	by email.

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68
1	: -- so, you've never seen MR.
2	it on email. It's just a list that's provided.
3	So, who - R&D comes and gives it to the SHU?
4	: No. MR. They send it up.
5	: So, Internal comes and MR.
6	gets it?
7	: Internal. MR. Yeah.
8	: So, on this date, would MR.
9	you know who would have been Internal? Who
10	would have provided that list to the SHU?
11	: I see who's Internal, but I'm MR.
12	not - I don't know if they would have provided
13	it. We've got two Internals.
14	MR. And who are the two :
15	Internals?
16	MR. -: (Phonetic Sp.
17	*00:48:29) and
18	MR. -: and
19	: Yeah. MR.
20	MR. All right. So, they're :
21	the two that typically - you're not saying that
22	they did - but they're typically the people
23	that would have provided the court list?
24	: Yeah. MR. Internal. That's what
25	they usually do. It could have been a

1 sanitation. 2 MR. : Now, isn't the list 3 typically provided the day before, or is it 4 just created the day before? 5 MR. : I don't know. I can't -. 6 it provided the day before? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : It was provided the same day. 9 MR. : It is? 10 MR. : You get about - you get the 11 morning watch the day of. 12 MR. : I was always - I was 13 under the understanding that the night before, 14 on August 8th, they would create the list for 15 the morning, on the August 9th. Do you know -- 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : -- was that a correct 18 understanding? 19 MR. : I'm not sure. All I know is, 20 if you're an officer, you get it the day of. 21 MR. : All right. So -. 22 MR. : Because when I was an 23 officer, I used to get it the day of. 24 MR. : All right. And you've 25 worked in the SHU before?¶

¶

¶

¶

24 MR. : Correctional systems officer.¶

25 MR. : Correctional systems¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73
1	officers. And, like, a supervisor, would they
2	still be, like -?
3	: Supervisor correctional MR.
4	systems officer.
5	: And would that be, like, MR.
6	a nine or an 11 type of --
7	: Something like that. MR.
8	: -- position? All right. MR.
9	But they're just outside of, you said custody,
10	underneath -. What is the system that they're
11	underneath?
12	: It's the non-custody and MR.
13	custody.
14	MR. Okay. :
15	: And they have correctional MR.
16	officer, a correctional worker, as opposed to
17	custody is a correctional officer.
18	And who would be - MR. Okay. :
19	Does the captain also have oversight over
20	them?
21	: No. MR.
22	MR. Who has oversight over :
23	them? Non-custody.
24	: The CMC. MR. They have a
25	supervisor.

¶

1	: No. MR.
2	: No? So, obviously, you MR.
3	can't remember if you had any conversations
4	about Reyes?
5	: No. I don't remember MR.
6	discussing Reyes.
7	: Right. MR.
8	: No. MR.
9	: So, did you ever receive MR.
10	any call around 1:50, or at any time, saying
11	: No. MR.
12	MR. -- that Reyes was going :
13	WAB? No? So, at this point in time, obviously,
14	you're saying you didn't know anything at that
15	point in time. Now, after the fact, what do
16	you know about Reyes being removed from the
17	MMC?
18	: I just know he went to court, MR.
19	and never came back. And that was it.
20	Do you know any MR. :
21	information about who was informed that he
22	wasn't coming back?
23	: No. MR.
24	MR. So, even after the fact, :
25	you don't know?

1	MR. No. :
2	Do you know anything -. MR. :
3	I mean, was it at all discussed about, like,
4	hey, somebody dropped the ball there?
5	MR. No. :
6	MR. No? There wasn't even a :
7	conversation?
8	I mean, that's the thing. I MR. :
9	don't recall him going - I didn't know he was
10	me personally - didn't know he was going WAB.
11	And I don't think a lot of other people did,
12	either. Yeah.
13	MR. Did anyone ever ask you :
14	about that --
15	MR. About Reyes? :
16	MR. -- yeah. :
17	MR. No. :
18	MR. Even after? :
19	MR. : No.
20	So, like, on August 10th, MR. :
21	August 11th, August 12th, did anyone come up to
22	you and say, hey, did you know Reyes wasn't
23	coming back?
24	MR. No. :
25	MR. And have you ever been :

1	interviewed for this matter before?
2	: No. MR.
3	: No? Did you have MR.
4	, or conversations with people like
5	, or anyone, regarding this matter,
6	after Epstein was found?
7	: What matter? MR.
8	: Epstein being found, and MR.
9	not having a cellmate?
10	: No. MR.
11	MR. No? You never talked to :
12	anybody in the institution about that?
13	: About him not having a MR.
14	cellmate, or are you talking about him being
15	found?
16	MR. No. About him not having :
17	a cellmate.
18	: I mean, not in a -. I mean, MR.
19	we sent a, hey, what happened, or, like, what
20	happened to his cellmate? Oh, he got released.
21	It was - he said it like that, but Okay.
22	nothing -. No. Not like that.
23	Was it any conversation MR. :
24	of, like, hey, why didn't they put a new
25	cellmate with him?

¶

1	didn't say nothing to the lieutenant, I could
2	I mean, you're telling me, I'm the see why.
3	OIC. And okay, I got the notification.
4	: So -. MR.
5	: So, if he didn't pass nothing MR.
6	on, it's -.
7	: Is it abnormal that he MR.
8	didn't pass it on, though? Should have he
9	passed it to you? Because -.
10	: It's not. It's not -. I MR.
11	mean -.
12	MR. Could have he placed :
13	another inmate with someone like Epstein?
14	: I'm not sure because then, MR.
15	again, it says possibly. WABs get cancelled.
16	They get cancelled.
17	MR. Sure. :
18	: That's why the 1:50, we don't MR.
19	know until after, like, hey, who is this guy
20	coming back? R&D is open at 8:00, 9:00.
21	: So, about what time would MR.
22	they normally make that notification that, okay
23	-?
24	: After 4:00. MR.
25	MR. After 4:00? :

1	: Yes. MR.
2	: And is it some - when you MR.
3	say after 4:00 - is it usually between 4:00 and
4	5:00?
5	: After 4:00. MR. Any time after
6	4:00.
7	: So, anywhere from 4:00 to MR.
8	What -? 5:00, 4:00 to 6:00, 4:00 to 8:00.
9	: MR. After the count.
10	So, after the 4:00 p.m. MR. :
11	count.
12	: After the 4:00 p.m. count. MR.
13	And why is it after the MR. :
14	count?
15	: Because that's when the guys MR.
16	come back, after the count. We do the 4:00
17	count. And then, you get an (Indiscernible
18	*00:56:31) base count training is like this.
19	You get 20 guys came back from court, this WAB
20	got cancelled.
21	So, as far as the 4:00 MR. :
22	count, or is it at that point, do people start
23	saying, where are these guys, and start making
24	calls, are they coming back or not?
25	: At 4:00? No. MR.

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE	81
1		: No? So, when is the next MR.
2		time that they would be listed on that count?
3		: The 9:00 count. MR.
4		: The 10:00 count? MR.
5		: Oh, the 10:00 count. MR. Yeah.
6		: Do you want to ask some MR.
7		more questions on that line? I'm just trying to
8		Because I thought it was at - I felt people
9		have told at 4:00, that's when they start
10		making calls to say, is this guy coming back or
11	not.	That's not your understanding?
12		: Why would you make a call at MR.
13	4:00?
14		MR. Because you've got to :
15		know if they're coming back to the unit or not
16		coming back.
17		: Well, the count, 3:45 is MR.
18	over.	So, you're in the unit or not. So, at
19		4:00, we do the count. After the count, that's
20		when the guys come in from court.
21		MR. Okay. :
22		: That's when we get the guys MR.
23		coming back to SHU and going back to their
24	units.
25		And would you be - would MR. :

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82
1	anybody be notified, prior to 4:00, that people
2	were, or were not, coming back?
3	: Not to my understanding. MR. No.
4	: All right. MR. So, to your
5	understanding, it's not until 4:00 or later,
6	that this, you know, people would know Reyes
7	was not coming back?
8	: Yeah. MR.
9	: All right. MR. So, if Reyes
10	doesn't come back after 4:00 p.m., who, on that
11	daily assignment roster, would be responsible
12	for making notifications, or determining that
13	Epstein needed a cellmate?
14	: I mean, the notification is MR.
15	We already have the notification. here.
16	MR. I know you're Yeah. :
17	pointing to the email that says that he
18	requires to have a cellmate. What I'm asking
19	is, okay, now 4:00 on, at some point after
20	4:00, you're saying Reyes - it's known that
21	Reyes is now not coming back.
22	: Mm-hmm. MR.
23	Not - possibly not coming MR. :
24	back, but he's not coming back. Who would be
25	responsible for placing - for making

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 notifications that, hey, Reyes is out, Epstein 2 does not have a cellmate, we need to start 3 making some notifications? 4 MR. : I mean, I don't know. 5 There's no notifications. That's if he doesn't 6 have a cellmate, we give him a cellmate. 7 MR. : Yeah. So, what I'm 8 saying is -. 9 MR. : But the lieutenant is not 10 saying, hey, by the way, you know? If they 11 catch it, they'll say it, but if they don't -. 12 MR. : And I'm not saying it's - 13 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : -- a lieutenant's 16 responsibility. What I'm asking is, whose 17 responsibility is it? 18 MR. : To say, hey, this guy, get 19 him a cellmate, or make a notification? 20 MR. : Yes. Like, who would be 21 the first one to know that Reyes is no longer 22 there? Would it be the SHU? 23 MR. : I'd say R&D. 24 MR. : So, R&D would be there. 25 What is R&D's responsibility, at that point?¶

1	: Oh, hey, we've got all the MR.
2	inmates back. It's such and such. And that's
3	it. You ain't get him? Then they're not coming
4	back. They're gone.
5	: But would R&D be MR.
6	responsible for saying, hey, SHU, Reyes isn't
7	coming back, or would they say, hey, ops
8	lieutenant, Reyes isn't coming back. Who would
9	R&D notify?
10	: I'm not sure. MR. In the past, I
11	would say they calling SHU directly.
12	MR. SHU directly? :
13	: Yeah. MR.
14	MR. All right. So, in the :
15	SHU, after 4:00, who was working?
16	MR. -: , Noel, and
17	MR. -: , Noel, and
18	Are they the only three there?
19	: That's the only three listed. MR.
20	So, one of those MR. Okay. :
21	three were likely notified?
22	: I'm not sure. MR.
23	And if they MR. Okay. :
24	weren't notified, at what point would they know
25	Reyes isn't coming back?

1 MR. : I'll say about 8:00. 2 MR. : And how would they be 3 notified? 4 MR. : Because usually, all the 5 inmates are by then, you know, talking to the 6 lieutenant, hey, is anyone else down there? 7 That's like a (Indiscernible *01:00:27) call. 8 MR. : Is there some point when 9 they should be saying, hey, this guy left at 10 8:00 this morning, he's still not back? 11 MR. : No. You said, is it at some 12 point? Yeah. 13 MR. : So, and at what point is 14 that? Is it during a count? Or is it just - is 15 there, like, you know, duties that they're 16 doing prior to the count, where they've got to 17 make sure people are there? How does that work? 18 MR. : I mean -. 19 MR. : You've worked in the SHU, 20 so from your recollection, from when you worked 21 in the SHU, how would that work? Especially 22 being that MCC is a jail, not a prison, where 23 people could, at any time, be released or 24 moved. How does that work in the SHU? 25 MR. : I used to have, like, that, I¶

1 think, set by 8:00. 2 MR. : I'm sorry. What did you 3 say about 8:00? 4 MR. : By 8:00, is when I say, hey, 5 is anyone else coming up? And this is the base 6 count. Like, I want to get everything straight 7 in the computer. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : I'll say by 8:00. 10 MR. : And on that date, when 11 those three people were working, who would 12 typically be responsible for doing something 13 like that? Is it, like, SHU one, SHU two, two 14 three, or is it just anybody, any one of them, 15 or how does that work? 16 MR. : To do what? 17 MR. : To say, like, hey, we've 18 got to make sure our base count is correct. 19 MR. : I mean, it could be any one 20 of them. 21 MR. : Any one of them? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : But it's not like 24 someone's job? It's just someone should take 25 that role.¶

¶

1	: I'm not sure about that. MR.
2	Because he was non-custody. I'm not sure.
3	: Okay. MR.
4	: Because, you see, he's non MR.
5	custody. Mine was bon-custody. He's just up
6	there for overtime. So, I'm not sure.
7	: Okay. MR. Now, as far the
8	So, at that point in time, lieutenants' job.
9	it was that was the ops, and hat
10	What is their role in was the activities.
11	ensuring that Reyes is, one, back; and two,
12	Epstein is placed with a new cellmate?
13	: Yeah. MR.
14	MR. Do they have any role? Or :
15	is it all on the SHU?
16	: I mean, it's - they don't MR.
17	have a role. You know, it's -.
18	MR. What about when they're :
19	conducting their rounds, as part of their
20	responsibility to say, to check that kind of
21	stuff, or is it just to see what inmates are
22	there, and that the inmates that are there, are
23	okay?
24	: Pretty much. MR. You've got to
25	do a round.

1	: Does that round entail MR.
2	verifying that Epstein has a cellmate and Reyes
3	isn't there?
4	: I'm not sure of that. MR. We
5	just know we do our rounds.
6	: So, that goes back to, MR.
7	what does a round entail? Does that mean that
8	you need to verify that the people that are on
9	the books are there, and other people are
10	removed?
11	: Yes, with staff and MR.
12	accountability. For the most part. You know?
13	Inmates banging, hey, all right, I'll be up,
14	doing my round. I'll deal with this when I get
15	up there.
16	But when you say for MR. :
17	accountability, what does that entail?
18	: Presence of inmates, MR.
19	depending on who goes up there. They know,
20	okay, this is on - they try certain things,
21	they won't try certain things.
22	Are you comparing a list MR. :
23	of the inmates that you know to be in the SHU,
24	with who's actually in the SHU?
25	: No. MR. Not for a round. No.

1	: No? All right. MR. So, as
2	far as a round conducted by a lieutenant, would
3	they know - would they be able to figure out
4	that Reyes was removed?
5	: Depending on what time the MR.
6	round was.
7	: And can you give me more MR.
8	explanation? What time would that change?
9	: If I do an early round, and MR.
10	Epstein's in a cell by his self, okay, I still
11	have time, still doing court movements, and it
12	raise no suspicion or no alarm.
13	MR. Okay. So, about what :
14	time would there be a suspicion or alarm that
15	be raised?
16	: I told you. MR. At about 8:00.
17	MR. 8:00? :
18	: MR. Yeah.
19	MR. Because Reyes hasn't been :
20	back?
21	: Yeah. MR.
22	MR. Okay. Were you ever :
23	provided any instructions on what actions
24	should be taken if Reyes was removed as
25	Epstein's cellmate?

1	: No. MR.
2	: What actions should have MR.
3	been taken once Reyes was removed?
4	MR. Hmm. Honestly, I mean, like
5	I said, we bunk all the inmates together. So,
6	if he were to move, look for him a new bunkie.
7	: And is that something - MR.
8	should have they notified - when they say look
9	for a new bunkie, I'm assuming you're talking
10	about the people in the SHU?
11	: Yeah. MR. A new cellmate. Yeah.
12	MR. So, I think you said :
13	, and Noel?
14	: MR. Yeah.
15	MR. Could have they placed :
16	him with a new cellmate, or would have they had
17	you make notification to the ops and/or
18	activities' lieutenant?
19	: You know, they don't need to MR.
20	make notification.
21	MR. What about when someone :
22	is high-profile as an inmate as Epstein?
23	: MR. No, he didn't make
24	notification.

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92
1	Do you know if Epstein's they would have.
2	cellmates were vetted by the captain and above?
3	: I think I heard something MR.
4	I think so. like that.
5	: Now, does that play into MR.
6	that answer? About if they could have just
7	placed anyone with him?
8	: I'm not sure. MR.
9	: Okay. MR.
10	: But I think someone vetted MR.
11	like that, pre-approved or something like that.
12	I think - I'm not sure - but I think I did hear
13	something like that.
14	But to your MR. Okay. :
15	knowledge, they could have placed anyone with
16	him? Not anyone, but, like, they could have
17	placed a new inmate with him.
18	: Yeah, they could have. MR.
19	MR. Okay. Should have they? :
20	: I'm not sure. MR. Like you said,
21	I'm not sure. the whole vetted thing, yeah.
22	So, if they knew that MR. :
23	Reyes was vetted, and was placed with him, at
24	that point, should have they done anything
25	else? Such as called the lieutenant to say,

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 hey, he's not back, we need to get him a new 2 celimate. Can I place someone with him, or 3 should have they just taken action on their 4 own? 5 MR. : I don't know. 6 MR. : If you were - I know you 7 were day watch - but if you were evening watch, 8 would of you expected them to notify you? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So, in this case, should 11 have they notified or should have they 12 notified, or either of them? 13 MR. : I'm not sure. 14 MR. : Should have -. 15 MR. : That was non-custody. 16 MR. : Should have the person 17 notified them by telephone, or when one of 18 those lieutenants did their rounds? 19 MR. : You said should they have? 20 MR. : Yeah.¶

21 MR. : If they would have? Yeah, 22 either/or. Both. Call, email, whatever. 23 MR. : Now, someone like -. So, 24 was the activities' lieutenant that 25 night, correct?¶

1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Since she was not a 3 lieutenant, she was an SIS, do you feel that 4 she had the knowledge and capabilities to be 5 able to do that job, at that time? 6 MR. : What job are you talking 7 about? 8 MR. : Activities' lieutenant. 9 MR. : Yeah. I think she was 10 training, right? 11 MR. : Well, I -. 12 MR. : I think she was training. 13 It's that temporary post, right? 14 MR. : So -. 15 MR. : Yeah, but that still wouldn't 16 be on her, though. 17 MR. : If she's the one who did 18 a round in the SHU for her shift. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Is that something that 21 she should have checked on? Hey, where's Reyes? 22 There's nobody in -. Because not only - I 23 mean, everyone knows what cellmate Epstein is 24 in. So, even if Epstein's not in there, and 25 he's still down at attorney conference, nobody¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1	is in there. So, shouldn't that have been
2	something that you'd say, hey, where is this
3	guy? Is he coming back? Should that be
4	something that was -?
5	: That kind of depends on the MR.
6	time.
7	: And when you're saying MR.
8	that you just mean because he possibly could be
9	coming back?
10	: Yes. MR.
11	MR. But if no one is there, :
12	and she knows he's out at court, shouldn't she
13	at least have followed up on, hey, anybody
14	check on his? Is he coming back?
15	: Well, that's R&D. R&D MR.
16	notifies us if they're coming back or not.
17	MR. All right. So, when :
18	doing rounds, that's not something being that,
19	hey, we've got to make sure that Epstein has a
20	Not something that should be, like, cellmate.
21	a, hey, nobody's in Epstein's cell. What's
22	going on there?
23	: I mean, that's what I'm MR.
24	We get this notice, not just with saying.
25	Epstein, with every inmate --

¶

1	: No, no, no. MR.
2	: MR. I have a funny joke,
3	that's why.
4	: I was just going to say, MR.
5	if that is up for people to see, doing rounds
6	in the SHU, does that change any of those
7	answers of, hey, where is Epstein's cellmate?
8	: I mean, this is - if it's MR.
9	rounds - that's something different than me
10	So, if they're saying saying single bunk.
11	we're doing rounds on them, that wouldn't make
12	them to think about, why is this guy - where is
13	his bunkie?
14	You don't think so? So, MR. :
15	if you're actually looking into his cell and
16	saying, you know he needs a bunkie, I'm looking
17	in his cell, and there is no one else with him,
18	you don't think that those are correlated?
19	: Yeah, but not because of MR.
20	That's just saying rounds, hey, this. No.
21	make sure you do your rounds.
22	It says specifically -- MR. :
23	: Than when it's not -- MR.
24	MR. -- rounds on -? :
25	: -- yea, but normal, it's not MR.

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98
1	going to think just because - it's not going to
2	mix this with this.
3	: So, even though they're MR.
4	looking in on Epstein, seeing that he's not -
5	he's by himself, that won't alert them to the
6	fact -?
7	: No. MR. Not that sign. No.
8	: No? MR.
9	: No. MR.
10	MR. You don't think so? :
11	: It says, "Mandatory rounds." MR.
12	MR. Do you know of any other :
13	signs that were in the SHU, saying that he was
14	required to have a cellmate?
15	: Hmm. MR. I can't recall.
16	MR. What about the hot list? :
17	Tell me about, what is a hot list?
18	: The hot list is inmates who MR.
19	have suicidal behavior or attempts in the past.
20	MR. And people on the hot :
21	list, are they required to have a cellmate?
22	: Yeah. MR.
23	Do you remember seeing MR. :
24	the hot list that was in the SHU?
25	: No. MR.

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1	: Is that as part, as a MR.
2	lieutenant, would they check out the hot list
3	when they would go down there?
4	: No. We would just - no - we MR.
5	would just check to see if it's updated.
6	: Okay. MR. So, Epstein's
7	listed on the hot list.
8	: Mm-hmm. MR.
9	: What does that, then, MR.
10	tell these people working in the SHU?
11	: He needs a cellmate. MR.
12	And do all of them know, MR. :
13	if Epstein's on the hot list, those people need
14	cellmates?
15	: I'm not sure if all of them MR.
16	knew.
17	: But are they supposed to? MR.
18	: MR. I don't know. Yeah.
19	: So, you feel MR. All right.
20	like the hot list is even more important than
21	the sign I just showed you, for cellmate
22	purposes?
23	: This sign? Where the sign MR.
24	come from?
25	If this sign was in the MR. :

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 SHU -- 2 MR. : You said "if"? 3 MR. : -- well, I'm not saying 4 I can't say if - yeah - I can't tell you -- 5 MR. : Oh. 6 MR. : -- exactly what is and 7 what isn't. I'm just saying, assuming that 8 this was in the SHU. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : What was your question? 11 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 12 This, I don't think this was up there. 13 MR. : You don't think that was 14 in the SHU? 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : Because -. 17 MR. : I mean, not in no tier or 18 nothing like that. 19 MR. : Okay. But around, like, 20 the officers -? 21 MR. : The hot list is up there, 22 though. 23 MR. : But what about, like, up 24 on, like, the desk area? Would you be around 25 the officer's desk area?¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 MR. : Hmm. I mean, if I had to. 2 MR. : But you didn't notice 3 that -- 4 MR. : But not normally. 5 MR. : -- in the desk area? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : All right. Where would 8 the hot list be located? 9 MR. : So, behind the desks, like, a 10 wall we have, that we keep it up there. 11 MR. : All right. And they're 12 supposed to be checking that, and making sure 13 those people are, one) checked on, and two) 14 have cellmates? Is that the purpose? 15 MR. : The hot list is just any - 16 it's pretty much any inmate that comes from the 17 housing unit. They come from the housing unit. 18 This guy psych alert, hey, make sure this guy 19 gets a bunkie. That's the initial check. 20 That's what the hot list is for. 21 MR. : And are they supposed to 22 check that list every day, to make those same - 23 24 MR. : I mean, you don't - no, you 25 get up there, it's, hey, on the suicide watch,¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102
1	is he on the hot list? So, it's not common to
2	check it every day. No.
3	: All right. MR. So, it's not
4	common to check it every day?
5	: Every day, no. MR. Unless it's
6	updated.
7	: Only when it's updated, MR.
8	you check it.
9	: Yeah, if the guy is still on MR.
10	it.
11	But wouldn't - again, the MR. :
12	fact that the MCC is a jail, not a prison -
13	wouldn't it be pretty regular that people are
14	being moved in and out?
15	: Not on the hot list. MR.
16	MR. No, but the people that :
17	they're bunked with. If they're required to
18	have a cellmate --
19	: MR. Mm-hmm.
20	-- wouldn't it be pretty MR. :
21	regular that they would have to - their
22	cellmates might be leaving? Because if it's a
23	jail, not a prison.
24	: Yeah. MR.
25	MR. So, that's what I'm :

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE	103
1	So, how are they always ensuring that saying.
2	those people that are required to have
3	cellmates have cellmates?
4	: That's when you say, hey, I MR.
5	got a single cell up there.
6	: And at what point is that MR.
7	reviewed?
8	: The single cells? MR.
9	: Yeah. MR. Is that supposed
10	to be a daily occurrence?
11	: Yeah. MR.
12	And is that - what time MR. :
13	is that? The 8:00 time that you're talking
14	about?
15	: No. Usually, that's in the MR.
16	morning. So, like, if I come in, hey, you
17	know, I'm going to - who's in the single cell?
18	You know?
19	MR. Well, what about -. :
20	: At night, it's just not -. MR.
21	At night, it's -.
22	MR. Even when people are left :
23	during the day, and then come back from court?
24	Some people come back, some people don't.
25	: Yeah. MR.

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104
1	: Wouldn't that be another MR.
2	time that they do it, or they don't do it at
3	that time?
4	: I mean, I mean, like I said, MR.
5	after that cut off time, that's when you start
6	saying, okay, we've got a single cell, of such
7	and such. Then again, remember, MCC get
8	inmates throughout the night.
9	: They do? MR.
10	: Yeah. MR.
11	MR. Placed in the SHU? :
12	: Yeah. MR.
13	MR. Okay. And you didn't :
14	work that night. Do you know of any people
15	that were placed in the SHU that night, on
16	August 9th?
17	: Not according to this, MR. No.
18	no.
19	: And did you conduct any MR.
20	counts or rounds in the SHU on August 9th?
21	: MR. I can't recall.
22	MR. And what is the purpose? :
23	Why do COs conduct counts and rounds in the
24	SHU?
25	: To make sure they're alive. MR.

¶

¶

¶

1	: Yeah. MR.
2	: Did you ever hear of MR.
3	people, like, filling out count slips, or round
4	sheets? Either before, or at the very start of
5	their shift, for their entire shift, or at the
6	end of the shift for their entire shift?
7	: Not before this incident. MR.
8	: Did you hear about that MR.
9	after this incident?
10	: Yeah. MR.
11	MR. What did you hear about :
12	that?
13	: That they didn't count. MR.
14	mean, it was filling out slips. It wasn't
15	Wasn't making rounds. counted.
16	And who was it that you MR. :
17	heard that wasn't conducting counts and rounds?
18	: MR. Thomas and Noel.
19	: MR. Anybody else in there?
20	: MR. No.
21	: Did you hear anything MR.
22	about counts and rounds not being conducted
23	prior to midnight on August 10th? So, any time
24	on August 9th, did you hear about any of those
25	counts and rounds not being conducted?

¶

1	MR. No. :
2	MR. Now, do lieutenants sign :
3	the counts or the rounds?
4	MR. The rounds. Not the counts. :
5	So, what is the MR. :
6	lieutenants' responsibility for signing the
7	round sheets?
8	MR. Making sure they're in :
9	compliance with the policy.
10	MR. All right. And do they :
11	have to - is there any way for them to verify
12	if, like, the rounds were actually done?
13	MR. Hmm. No. Unless you're
14	doing a - checking a video.
15	You just - is what you do MR. :
16	is just to make sure that the - it's actually
17	filled out?
18	MR. Correctly. :
19	MR. Correctly filled out? All :
20	I'm going to - I apologize for this, right.
21	it's gotten a little longer - so, I'm going to
22	What is this that I'm showing you? show you.
23	MR. It's a round sheet. :
24	MR. All right. And what is :
25	the round sheet from?

¶

¶

1	the lieutenant would sign the sheet in the SHU?
2	Because aren't they maintained in the SHU?
3	: Typically, that's what would MR.
4	happen.
5	: So, typically, you would MR.
6	have signed this in the SHU. Correct?
7	: Yeah. MR.
8	: And would of you signed MR.
9	this after the last one was filled out? I'm
10	assuming they wouldn't fill one out after you
11	signed it, would they?
12	: I'm not sure. MR.
13	MR. So, this one says 2:05, :
14	Wouldn't that typically mean that you 2:07.
15	would have been there at least 2:00?
16	: I'm not sure. MR.
17	MR. But by looking at this :
18	document, does that indicate to you, that if
19	you signed it, you would have signed it? Do you
20	ever sign -. Are these continued to be filled
21	out after the - sorry - after the lieutenant
22	signs it?
23	: Yeah. MR.
24	MR. So, even for day watch :
25	right here?

1	Yeah. MR. :
2	So, you can sign it at MR. :
3	any point during this, and then, they continue
4	to fill it out?
5	MR. Yeah. :
6	All right. MR. And that's :
7	what I'm asking. How does that work? I don't
8	So, I'm asking. know.
9	I mean, it's eight hours. MR. :
10	MR. So, at any point, from :
11	8:00 a.m. until basically 2:07 p.m., you could
12	have signed that?
13	MR. Yes. :
14	MR. Okay. And these are :
15	They're not I trick you. genuine questions.
16	I'm just asking --
17	MR. No. I understand. But it :
18	does seem like that, is what I'm saying.
19	: And then, I'm not -- MR.
20	: That's what I'm saying, like MR.
21
22	MR. I promise you, I'm :
23	just asking, like, this isn't, like, an "I
24	There's no -- gotcha" moment.
25	MR. Mm-hmm. :

1	MR. I gotcha moments in :
2	this. This is just asking for your, like, your
3	recollection on this.
4	: Yeah, I understand that. MR. But
5	that's why I said, I'm not sure about that. I
6	don't know when I signed it.
7	: All right. MR. And that's
8	so, what I'm asking you, like, is this
9	something, typically, that you would have done?
10	And again, it's not an I gotcha.
11	MR. But again -- : Yeah.
12	It's just, it's a genuine MR. :
13
14	MR. I'm not sure. :
15	MR. -- but so, you don't know :
16	if -. But so, most of the time, I mean, these
17	are maintained in the SHU, and this is - again
18	- this is our learning experience, by talking
19	to people like you, lieutenants --
20	MR. Yeah. :
21	-- that were there. MR. :
22	It's, again, not an "I gotcha." It's trying to
23	figure out, how does this process work?
24	MR. : But also, I'm not trying to
25	incriminate myself.

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 MR. : I got -. 2 MR. : Or nothing. That's what I'm 3 saying. I'm not sure. 4 MR. : But what I'm asking, I 5 guess, is just - and I don't even know what 6 there would be to incriminate you with - but, 7 like, what I'm asking is, like, how does this 8 process work? If you give this person a round 9 sheet, are these round sheets signed in the 10 SHU? 11 MR. : Typically. 12 MR. : Typically. All right. 13 And are you aware of them ever not being signed 14 in the SHU? 15 MR. : I'm not sure. Not that 16 know of, no. 17 MR. : All right. So, at least 18 more likely than not, you signed this document 19 in the SHU, at some point, between 8:00 and 20 2:00 p.m.? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, that means you 23 probably did a round in there? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : All right. And if it was¶

1	between 8:00 and 2:00 p.m., both Reyes and
2	Epstein were not in their cell at that time,
3	then, correct?
4	: Okay. MR.
5	: I mean, this isn't, like MR.
6	- again - an I gotcha. I'm just trying to
7	figure out, like, where you fall in this whole
8	thing.
9	: So, that's what I'm trying to MR.
10	Where do I fall in this whole figure out.
11	thing?
12	MR. Because this is your :
13	We're talking to idea. That's what we're
14	you just specifically about, all right, Reyes
15	was gone, at some point, he goes WAB. We
16	don't know -.
17	: So, you're trying to say MR.
18	who's to blame for it, or -?
19	: Well, it's also just trying MR.
20	to figure out what happened. We've got to talk
21	to -.
22	: He left. MR. And that's what
23	happened.
24	MR. Right. And you, when you :
25	were there, there was no conversations that you

1	had with anyone?
2	: No conspiracy. MR. No. It's not
3
4	: No, no, no, and we're not MR.
5	asking --
6	-- nothing like that. MR.
7	: -- for a conspiracy. MR.
8	It's just, we need to know who, what
9	conversations happened, where, where did the
10	: I didn't know nothing about MR.
11	it until after I saw it in the news.
12	MR. And this is also me :
13	showing you this now is more letting you know,
14	like, okay, that looks like you probably were
15	there. Does that help spark recollection?
16	: I had no conversation with MR.
17	neither one of them that day. Not that I
18	recall.
19	: MR. None of them that day?
20	: No. MR.
21	All right. MR. Can you tell, :
22	does this look like an RCS to you?
23	: I don't know who -- MR.
24	MR. Why don't you have a look :
25	at this?

1	-- whose signature that is. MR.
2	: All right. MR. So, on day
3	, watch, there was a
	. As well as . Does that look
5	like any of those people to you?
6	MR. Hmm. I'm not sure.
7	: Okay. MR. All right. So,
8	you do not recall. And as we go, do you mind
9	just initialing or whatever? Okay. You got
10	those, too, if you don't mind initialing this,
11	Now, although it is and this, and this.
12	voluntary, I guess, we do have to just make
13	sure we know, it also has to be the answers are
14	truthful, you're under oath. So, that also
15	so, lack of candor can also be constituted by
16	not providing full information or, like, hiding
17	information.
18	: No. If I remember, it'll - MR.
19	and I don't hide nothing - but if I remember,
20	then I will say it.
21	MR. Okay. :
22	: But when you come with these MR.
23
24	So, it's just -- MR. :
25	: -- saying it looks like, hey, MR.

1 by the way -- 2 MR. : -- and again -- 3 MR. yeah, and if I'm, like -. 4 MR. our purpose, you would 5 have been interviewed a lot earlier, if there 6 was, like, you know -- 7 MR. : Yeah, but still -- 8 MR. : -- we're -. 9 MR. -- I know, I know being that 10 day, I know it was a big profile case. Hey, 11 let's get such and such, they fill this, and 12 then -- 13 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 14 MR. and I'm, like, come on. 15 MR. : And we just need to know, 16 like, as, you know, we've got make sure that, 17 like, hey, what you do remember, you can tell 18 us. Again, it's voluntary, but, like -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : -- all right. So, these, 21 I'm going to give you these count slips from 22 August 9th up until midnight of August 10th. 23 And is it your understanding that ZA on the 24 count slip, that stands for the SHU? 25 MR. : Yeah.¶

¶

1	seen this, not that you've seen it before
2	today. It's just that, today, while we're
3	talking to you, this is in fact the document
4	that we were talking about.
5	: Okay. MR.
6	: It's not certifying its MR.
7	It's not saying you saw it before accuracy.
8	today. It's simply to say that's the document
9	we're discussing right now.
10	: And I'm looking for this MR.
11	MR. Thank you, sir. :
12	-- or -? MR.
13	MR. So, look at the ZAs, :
14	So, you're - what is this one that I starting.
15	gave you? Is that the -.
16	: So, this is the 9th at 5:02. MR.
17	: So, 5:00 a.m. count. MR.
18	: a.m., right? MR.
19	: So, okay, so, I gave you MR.
20	the 5:00 a.m. count on the 9th. Can you just
21	take a look at the numbers? You can look at
22	the - is that - what's this first page called?
23	Is that the El?
24	: Yeah. MR.
25	All right. MR. So, look at :

1	the El. And then, look at the count slip for
2	ZA. So, when you're looking at El, just make
3	note of what is the number that says on the El,
4	and then, go back to probably the last page,
5	maybe the second to last page, for each, and
6	look at the ZA number, to make sure that it
7	matches with what the El shows. And I just
8	want you to do that for the one
9	: You said the El and the what? MR.
10	MR. The El and the count slip :
11	for ZA.
12	: The count slips are in the MR.
13	back.
14	MR. should be either the last :
15	And I just -- or the second to last page.
16	: Where it's 5:00 in the MR.
17	morning?
18	: -- that's 5:00 in the MR.
19	morning on the 9th. So, what do those numbers
20	show?
21	: In ZA? MR.
22	MR. Yeah. :
23	: So, 77. MR.
24	MR. Does it say both of them, :
25	77?

1	: On the El, yeah. MR.
2	: All right. MR. Cool. Now,
3	you can just initial and date that, and move it
4	aside. Again, these aren't I gotcha moments.
5	These just help us explain some stuff. All
6	So, this El, well, can you tell me what right.
7	it says for the ZA on this one? And this is,
8	what, the 5:00 p.m. count? What is this?
9	: Yeah. MR.
10	: 4:00 p.m. MR.
11	MR. 4:00 p.m., I mean. :
12	: It's 4:00 count. MR. But yeah.
13	So, that ZA is 75.
14	MR. 75. And the last one was :
15	77?
16	: Yeah. MR.
17	MR. And what does that say? :
18	: 75. MR.
19	MR. All right. 75. Cool. :
20	Can you just initial that and put that on the
21	side? And you'll understand the question after
22	you look at these. And again, it's not an I
23	It's to help us explain something. gotcha.
24	All right.
25	: What y'all trying to explain, MR.

1 though? 2 MR. : The count changes, and 3 I'm going to ask you how you can - if there's a 4 way for you to be able to figure out how this 5 count changed. All right. Can you look at the 6 El on here, and compare it to the count slip 7 back there? What is the -? 8 MR. : And it's the 10:00 count, 9 right? 10 MR. : 10:00 p.m. count on 11 August 9th. 12 MR. : Yeah. 73. 13 MR. : 73? On both? And is there 14 a count - does the count slip say something 15 weird on that one? 16 MR. : No, I'm just looking at the 17 seven. 18 MR. : Does it say, like, 19 plus one on there? 20 MR. : Oh, yeah. It does. 21 MR. : Have you ever seen a plus 22 one on any before, or could you understand a 23 reason why someone will put plus one? 24 MR. : Plus one. No. I don't know 25 about a plus one.¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125
1	MR. All right. Now, this is :
2	the one that I really want you to look at.
3	Look at this El. This is now August 10th at
4	Check out what it says for ZA on the midnight.
5	El. What number does that say?
6	MR. 72. :
7	MR. All right. And check out :
8	the count slip.
9	MR. What does the count slip say? :
10	MR. It says 73. :
11	MR. So, 73, but the top one, :
12	that was clear, it says 72. Right?
13	MR. Mm-hmm. :
14	MR. And I'll give you one :
15	more, just so it's not a magic trick, look at
16	this page first, for the August 10th, and I
17	have the rest of them, too, if you want to see
18	them, but 3:00 a.m. on August 10th, and then,
19	the last page where it says the count slip.
20	What does it say on the El on the next one?
21	MR. It says 72. :
22	MR. And on the El. And then, :
23	what does the count slip say?
24	MR. 72. :
25	MR. So, in looking at all :

1	this, does that tell you - as a lieutenant and
2	someone who worked in the SHU - does that tell
3	you something?
4	: Yeah, but the thing is, this MR.
5	one had up, though.
6	: That's exactly -- MR.
7	: That way and clear the count. MR.
8	: -- that's exactly right. MR.
9	So, we're trying to figure out where did this
10	count change down the 72? And does it indicate
11	to you that these counts were not actually
12	conducted? And this is not --
13	: (Indiscernible *01:33:00). MR.
14	MR. -- and this is not -- :
15	: It's the 9:00 count. MR.
16	MR. -- we have no reason to :
17	believe you were involved in this. So, I want
18	to make sure you're -. We're actually just
19	looking for your help here. As someone who
20	worked in the SHU, and as someone that is
21	familiar with these kinds of documents, can you
22	help us put this puzzle together? How - so we
23	have reason to believe that they called in at
24	midnight 73 --
25	: Mm-hmm. MR.

1	: -- and the control MR.
2	lieutenant, who was working that night, figured
3	out there's actually only 72 people in there.
4	They've been calling in 73, but there's only 72
5	Is there any way, from people in the SHU.
6	looking - and that's from this point forward,
7	they're now start --
8	: Mm-hmm. MR.
9	: -- calling in 72 - is MR.
10	there any way, from looking at these, you're
11	able to determine, with your knowledge and
12	experience, where that changed? I would say
13	that it changed from the 10:00 count. This was
14	printed at 9:33. So, it has 73. And then, at
15	9:33, attorney conference ain't open. So,
16	Epstein would have probably been up by then.
17	He would have went back to the SHU.
18	MR. So, he would have been :
19	listed on -. Epstein would have been back at
20	least by 8:00 p.m., right?
21	: Yeah. MR.
22	MR. So, that would have :
23	: So, he should have been on MR.
24	this count.
25	-- he should have been on MR. :

1 this one. 2 MR. : So, he threw it, yeah. 3 MR. : And can you see where on 4 the - let's talk about, I guess, what's the one 5 before? The 5:00 p.m.? The 4:00 p.m.? 6 MR. : Yeah, he would have been at 7 attorney conference. Yeah. 8 MR. : And it would have showed 9 him at attorney conference on one of these, 10 correct? On the El? 11 MR. : Yeah. At 3:00, at attorney 12 conference. Well, from SHU. 13 MR. : And then, does it show 14 that he's already in SHU in this one? Is there 15 any way an attorney conference at the 10:00 16 p.m. count? 17 MR. : No. But see, what I was 18 telling you before about the numbers, see how I 19 had 76? 20 MR. : Yup. 21 MR. : And this is at the 4:00 22 count. And then, it went down to 73? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : So, you don't know until 25 after the count, about the whole cellmate¶

1 coming back. 2 MR. : Right. But then, the 3 weird part about it is going from 73 to 72, 4 with no movement. 5 MR. : So, we don't know, okay, 6 so, they're taking off, you know, if they're 7 going from - what does it say? 76? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Down to 73. That's three 10 people, and one person vanishes. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : When it gets to 72. Are 13 you able to tell where that person vanished 14 from, or is it impossible because, possibly, 15 all of these counts were not conducted, and 16 that's - I know you weren't here for any of 17 these counts, apparently, so it's, again, I'm 18 just asking for your guidance - is that 19 correct? You weren't even working when any of 20 these counts were conducted? 21 MR. : Yeah, well, if I was - you 22 said 4:00, right? 23 MR. : Well, you possibly worked 24 up until 4:00. 25 MR. : Yeah.¶

¶

1 out, that's what it is. 2 MR. : And you just 3 MR. : Oh, they hadn't keyed them 4 out. But then, they would have keyed them out. 5 R&D leaves at 10:00. They leave at 10:00. 6 Now, they could have left somebody on, and then 7 came out. Because like I said, it's no 8 movement. The only way you get it is you key 9 out. Like, key a guy unless somebody went to 10 the hospital or something. 11 MR. : Yeah, and if there is 12 nothing that happened, but no inmates were 13 moved after 10:00 p.m. If we know that, does 14 this indicate that they were just going off on 15 numbers and just falsifying their counts, or 16 are you able to tell, by looking at these at 17 all -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- if these counts are 20 legit or not? Are you able to kind of, like, 21 give us any insight into that? 22 MR. : I mean, the one with the plus 23 one is a question because I don't see why they 24 would -. Then again, you've got R&D with a 25 plus one, too. I don't know. I don't know¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132
1	what's going on. They got R&D, (Indiscernible
2	*01:37:57) cell plus one.
3	MR. And by looking at that :
4	person in R&D, are you able to tell who that
5	is?
6	MR. Hmm-mm. :
7	MR. Not by looking at that :
8	name?
9	MR. I mean, Not by the name. :
10	there's no outcome. Don't have the out count.
11	MR. Don't have the out count? :
12	Is that what you're saying?
13	MR. Yeah. :
14	And what time is that MR. :
15	for?
16	Well, I can't - you don't MR. :
17	have the out count.
18	MR. No, what time are you :
19	looking at?
20	MR. This one is for the 10:00. :
21	So, the 10:00 p.m. MR. :
22	doesn't even have an out count on it?
23	I mean, it don't add up MR. :
24	because - yeah, something is not right
25	because R&D is not on here. Unless they moved.

1 I mean, some time, they say a ghost count, but 2 3 MR. : And what does a ghost 4 count mean? 5 MR. : -- so, like, the guys in 6 medical, they say, hey, I didn't have time to 7 key him in, but I'm verifying that he's down 8 here with me, and put him on my count 9 MR. : So, R&D. Does that say 10 95 plus one? 11 MR. : It could say 95 or it could 12 say 9-South. 13 MR. : Oh, 9-South plus one. 14 MR. : What is 9-South? 15 MR. : The SHU. 16 MR. : Now, this name, to me, 17 looks like (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:27). 18 Do you know any -- 19 MR. . Yeah. 20 MR. -- so, is that somebody's 21 name? 22 MR. : Yeah. That's an officer. 23 MR. : So, if someone was placed 24 in R&D, and someone was told to watch that 25 person there, would the person - at 10:00 p.m.¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134
1	- would they be able to see like a dry cell,
2	someone was still there at night?
3	: Well, yeah, because you could MR.
4	watch them down here, yeah.
5	: And is that like a small MR.
6	(Indiscernible *01:39:52)? Is it kind of like
7	you'd be able to - that person would know if
8	somebody was there or not?
9	: Yeah. MR.
10	MR. Verify it. :
11	: Because someone could have MR.
12	A U.S. Marshal came in before the count, too.
13	could have brung one in, and they said, hey,
14	watch this guy. He's going to 9-South. That's
15	why the plus one is throwing me off.
16	Have you ever seen plus MR. :
17	one on anything before?
18	: No. MR. I heard people calling
19	in with a plus one. But then, again, I say
20	A ghost count. that's like a ghost.
21	MR. All right. Does this :
22	: But it mess up the base MR.
23	count, though.
24	MR. -- but seeing, especially :
25	looking at the 72 --

1	: Yeah, I don't know how that MR.
2	happened.
3	: -- and does this at all MR.
4	tell you anything about any of these counts?
5	: Hmm. MR.
6	: Like, we've had other MR.
7	people, you know, in higher positions saying,
8	to me, it tells me that the counts weren't
9	done. Does that tell you that?
10	: Yeah, but at 10:00? Pfft, I MR.
11	I don't know, man. Yeah. I mean, mean, yeah.
12	I couldn't tell you, man.
13	MR. All right. So -. :
14	: I couldn't tell you. MR. I don't
15	know. I don't understand that.
16	: Okay. So, is it just a MR.
17	baffling type of deal? Because it's baffling --
18	: MR. Yeah.
19	: -- to us, and then, we're MR.
20	just hoping that people can kind of help us
21	especially people that were there -.
22	: I don't know. MR. See, that's
23	I don't see how why I don't understand that.
24	they get 73 at the 10:00 count, and then they
25	lose one after the 10:00 count.

1	: And that's the same MR.
2	thing. We're trying to figure that out.
3	: Unless it wasn't keyed in the MR.
4	system.
5	: At what point - are you MR.
6	able to tell - at what point it should have
7	been keyed in the system by that?
8	: Well, if a guy came into R&D, MR.
9	and they keyed him in SHU, and then put him
10	back in R&D.
11	MR. So if he like went to SHU :
12
13	: MR. He never went to SHU.
14	MR. -- and then back? :
15	: They keyed him in the SHU. MR.
16	They put him on this count. But he didn't make
17	it. So, the medical and stuff taking the guy
18	So, they say, hey, leave him down there, out.
19	and count him in R&D. I could see that
20	happening.
21	So if, like, he's in MR. :
22	medical, and they can't --
23	: Well, so like, medical comes MR.
24	down there, and they checking him out, and he
25	don't make it up time in SHU, for the time,

1 seeing they could say, hey, well, I'm not 2 putting him on our count, put him down there. 3 MR. : So, that would be like 4 the ghost count you're talking about? 5 MR. : No, that's a real count. 6 MR. : But if he's -. 7 MR. : That's just saying someone 8 put him in there but took him out. 9 MR. : All right. But if he's 10 not physically there, he's not actually allowed 11 to be on the count. Is he? 12 MR. : Exactly. No. That's why - 13 and this is, I don't - you see, this says RA? 14 That's R&D. 15 MR. : And does it say anybody's 16 in R&D over on this one? 17 MR. : Well, there's no out count, 18 and that's what I'm saying. There's no out 19 count with that one. 20 MR. : So, this RA -- 21 MR. : RA and R&D are separate. 22 MR. : -- is one. 23 MR. : You need an out count for 24 this. You don't need an out count for that. 25 This is a unit.¶

¶

1 up. They should have had the RA count slip for 2 that one. 3 MR. : What's the difference between 4 RA and R&D? 5 MR. : RA is a real unit. So, when 6 the guys come back from court, they're in RA 7 status. R&D is when they keyed out. 8 MR. : To go to leave? 9 MR. : To go to court. But if they 10 come back, they came back in their unit. If 11 they don't come back, they release them from 12 R&D. But RA is technically a unit. 13 MR. : And it doesn't count as a - 14 it doesn't show up as R&D? 15 MR. : No. (Indiscernible 16 *01:43:57). 17 MR. : Where would that one slip 18 - that says R&D in there - where would that 19 show up here? 20 MR. : That would be right here. 21 But they don't have nobody in R&D. 22 MR. : So, there's - and so, is 23 that even weirder, the fact that, at the 10:00 24 p.m. count, there's a count slip for R&D, and 25 there's nobody for R&D on this?¶

1 MR. : That's why I think they put 2 him, and they keyed him in SHU. They keyed him 3 in SHU, the inmate, and then put him down in 4 R&D. And then, changed it after the count. Or 5 they could have changed it right after this 6 count cleared, and set it up for the next 7 count, say the inmates, the inmate is in - this 8 is the 10:00? 9 MR. : Yeah, that one is the 10 10:00 p.m. 11 MR. : Yeah. And you have the 12 midnight one. 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : That's the midnight one 15 right there. 16 MR. : That's the 3:00. 17 MR. : Oh. 18 MR. : See, (Indiscernible 19 *01:44:44) right here. 20 MR. : Oh, I think I took it. 21 MR. : So, whoever was in SHU, they 22 put him, and they keyed him into RA and R&D. 23 MR. : This is the midnight. 24 MR. : Yeah. So that's what 25 happened.¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141
1	: Does R&D have like a dry cell MR.
2	or a dry room?
3	: No, they got cells. MR. You see,
4	they got RA right here. Yeah, that's what
5	I think the guy came from SHU and happened.
6	went to RA. That's why they lost one.
7	: And can you think of why MR.
8	a person would go from SHU to RA, at that late
9	at night?
10	: Body scan. Probably pulled MR.
11	And they kept him down there, put something.
12	him through the x-ray.
13	And is there any way - by MR. :
14	looking at these - you can see how Is there
15	- you said the 4:00 p.m.?
16	: Yeah. MR. That's the 4:00 p.m.
17	MR. Is the person in R&D at :
18	4:00 p.m.? Are you able to tell by this?
19	: Let me see. You know the MR.
20	inmate that was down there or no?
21	I think Fernandez. MR. Is :
22	that right?
23	: Was he a west side dude? MR.
24	MR. Do you anything about :
25	him?

1	: MR. No, I don't.
2	: Yeah, but that's what it MR.
3	looks like. It looks like they took a guy to
4	SHU, and put him in R&D, but instead of keying
5	him in R&D, they keyed him RA. Yeah. That's
6	what it looks like.
7	: So, at the 4:00 p.m., was MR.
8	he anything to do with Fernandez on that, or
9	anything to do with somebody in -?
10	: Well, the 4:00 p.m. is - no, MR.
11	because no one is out from R&D. Let me see.
12	You've got one from 11-South. You've got no
13	one else from R&D.
14	But it's also said that MR. :
15	at the 10:00 p.m., right? Or I don't know which
16	one I'm looking at right there, but -.
17	: No, you have one out here. MR.
18	But it looks like this inmate, from Yeah.
19	10:00, they did the count at 10:00. Plus one.
20	Plus one. It seemed like they Yeah. Yeah.
21	got screwed up by something. Either moving
22	this guy to R&D, or whatever. I mean, the
23	count slip shouldn't have accepted anyway,
24	So, in the 9-South, plus one. though. Like,
25	don't know why that was written, but --

1	: Okay. MR.
2	: -- that's what it looked MR.
3	The guy came from 9-South, he went in like.
4	the RA. He stayed there throughout the night.
5	Whoever the inmate was --
6	: Yeah, yeah. MR.
7	MR. right there.
8	: And we have reason to MR.
9	believe that that is the case. That there is a
10	guy that was in, you know, he did stay there at
11	the night, and he had somebody on him, and
12	that's one of the reasons why we want to talk
13	to somebody that was in R&D to be able to
14	verify hey, was that guy really there?
15	: Mm-hmm. MR.
16	MR. And by looking at that, :
17	would that be that individual we just talked
18	about?
19	MR. -:
20	: Yeah. MR.
21	MR. Who did the count slip? :
22	: It's based on the count slip MR.
23	(Indiscernible *01:48:18).
24	: Yeah. MR.
25	MR. Um all right. Does this :

1 tell you anything else? Just before we move 2 on. 3 MR. : I mean just -. I don't know. 4 Yeah. I don't know. I don't understand it. 5 That's the only thing I think they probably 6 took him down for that then. 7 MR. : Is there - which, from 8 looking at these, what basic like counts seem 9 bad to you? Does this 10:00 p.m. one seem like 10 a bad count to you? The way that it - what you 11 just looked at? When there's nothing on the El 12 and there's a count slip? 13 MR. : Uh. 14 MR. : If you were working that 15 night and you got a count like that, is that a 16 good count or bad count? 17 MR. : I would have said bad count. 18 MR. : And who - can you tell by 19 looking at this - who was the one who took this 20 count? 21 MR. : Uh 22 MR. -: ? And was there any 23 lieutenants involved with this? 24 MR. : I mean there could have been. 25 I'm not sure.¶

1	: But by looking at it like MR.
2	I think like probably the midnight one there
3	was an actual ops lieutenant. Are you able to
4	tell that by looking at the - I think the ops
5	lieutenant is the one who caught it at
6	midnight? Are you able to tell that that -?
7	: Oh this one here? MR.
8	: Yeah. Are you able to - MR.
9	by looking at these, are you able to tell when
10	the lieutenant actually took the count?
11	: It was - says she took the MR.
12	count - took the count at midnight.
13	And it shows MR. All right. :
14	on it? I'm looking at it upside down
15	so I can't even see.
16	: That's what it says yeah. MR.
17	MR. And on this one does it :
18	show any lieutenant was involved?
19	: No. MR.
20	MR. So it would just been :
21
22	: Yeah. MR.
23	All right. MR. :
24	: What about the 4:00 p.m.? MR.
25	Does it show the lieutenant's name on the 4:00

¶

1 when they call in the count, it's wrong. Like 2 hold on that's not it. Yeah. 3 MR. : And that's what I mean by 4 wouldn't this be incorrect if they get a count 5 slip that's not listed on the El? 6 MR. : Yeah. They got a - which one¶

7 did they get? R&D? Yeah. Yep. That would be 8 a bad one.¶

9 MR. : All right. So for this 10 it seems like the 10:00 p.m. on August 9th was 11 a bad El and as far as the midnight, it seems 12 like it's the count slip that's a bad slip. Is 13 that correct? Whatever that's (Indiscernible 14 *01:51:13). I'm sorry, I'm in the -. So it 15 seems like the El is good at midnight, but the 16 count slip is bad at midnight for ZA. And 17 we're primarily asking you this stuff just 18 because we've got to write a report about what 19 we're finding. And we don't want to sound - we 20 don't want to be wrong. You know what I mean? 21 MR. : Yeah. Yeah so, the count 22 slip is wrong on this one. 23 MR. : So midnight count slip is 24 wrong, El seems right. The El at 10:00 p.m. 25 seems wrong, but the count slips seems right.¶

1	I - we have reason to At least for R&D.
2	believe the count slip for ZA is also wrong for
3
4	: Yeah-yeah-yeah. MR.
5	: -- 10:00 p.m. because -. MR.
6	Well it depends, I guess, like you said, what
7	time the individual was moved to R&D. We've
8	been told that after the you know -. People
9	are all moved prior to this time. So if that
10	person was in R&D, it would have been prior to
11	the 10:00 p.m. count. Does that sound right to
12	you?
13	: That's what I'm saying. MR.
14	mean something could have happened. And you
15	know taken this guy downstairs.
16	MR. And that's why we need to :
17	talk to people. So by looking at this, are you
18	able to like figure out who we can talk to? To
19	see if something happened at 10:00 p.m. to
20	change this count and make this -?
21	: Did you see the log already? MR.
22	MR. The lieutenant's log? :
23	: MR. Yeah.
24	MR. Do we have it? Yeah. I :
25	have it.

1 MR. : Anything with log? 2 MR. : Um so here's the - yeah. 3 So here's the log from the day you were on. 4 That's the August - it says August 10th, but 5 you know it's the August 9th log in there. Are 6 you able to tell by looking at that? And 7 here's the day after. So this is the - you've 8 got the August 9th -- 9 MR. : Okay. So moving him to the 10 dry cell. 11 MR. : -- and the August 10th. 12 MR. : Okay. So he put someone in 13 dry cell. 14 MR. : Dry cell is in the SHU isn't 15 it? 16 MR. : Yeah. If there's space. 17 Okay. So it looks like they didn't key the guy 18 up. He went to dry cell depending on what 19 time. 20 MR. : And are you able to tell 21 by these lieutenant's - I think you've got the 22 actual lieutenant log back there and I would 23 assume that that's when it should be documented 24 when people are moved. Correct? Are you able 25 to tell by looking at that when someone - you¶

1	know this person was moved to dry cell?
2	: Eh. MR.
3	: Oh. And also if you've MR.
4	got that, are you able to tell by looking at
5	that when you worked until? No?
6	: No. MR. I wouldn't have done a
7	log that day from activities.
8	: Yeah. I just didn't know MR.
9	if it like mentioned when people - you know ops
10	or activities started or stopped.
11	: No. It doesn't say when he MR.
12	. It just says Inmate Fernandez on dry cell.
13	It doesn't say when he went there.
14	: There's no time associated MR.
15	with the movement on there?
16	MR. Should have there been? :
17	: MR. I mean that's good to put in
18	there yeah.
19	: So you said you wouldn't MR.
20	have been associated with the lieutenant's log.
21	Who does the lieutenant's log?
22	: Ops should take care of it. MR.
23	MR. Ops would so on your :
24	shift it would have been
25	: Yeah. But Fernandez is MR.

1 already on dry cell on day watch it says. 2 MR. : And that's where we get 3 confused. And that's why we have reason to 4 believe - because it seems like Fernandez was 5 put on day watch. 6 MR. : At 3:15. Yeah. 7 MR. : Does it say 3:15 he was 8 placed on there? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So that indicates to us 11 the 4:00 p.m. and that 10:00 p.m. count were 12 also both bad. He wasn't in the SHU. Does 13 that make sense to you? 14 MR. : I think he was Yeah. He 15 wasn't in the SHU, but he was he was still 16 keyed in SHU. 17 MR. : He was still keyed in the 18 SHU, but he wasn't there? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Right. So for the Els, 21 they would still show it. The only way the 22 people in control would know it is if SHU 23 actually did their count and said we only got 24 72 people in here not 73. Right? 25 MR. : I mean....¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152
1	: Because people working in MR.
2	the SHU. They know hey, we only count bodies
3	that are present.
4	: Oh hold on. This is the 9th. MR.
5	So he went to -. Transfer to special Okay.
6	housing - dry cell at 4:00.
7	: At 4:00 it says? MR.
8	: On the 9th. This is done on MR.
9	the night before. Okay. Okay.
10	Can you -? And again I MR. :
11	promise you, not a "gotcha." You're being a
12	very extremely help. Can you just note on
13	there where you're seeing these different
14	things? If you can tell at what time he was
15	moved?
16	: Well this just looks like the MR.
17	log is the same.
18	We also have reason to MR. :
19	believe that people manipulated the log after
20	the fact.
21	: Yeah. That's what I'm MR.
22	Some things are (Indiscernible saying.
23	*01:57:13).
24	Do you know anything MR. :
25	While I mentioned that? about that?

¶

1 potentially was late, and you relieved 2 her? 3 MR. : I don't know. I'm not sure. 4 MR. : Would that be like a 5 possibility? Like can they do that? Even if 6 you're activities' lieutenant, if she wants to 7 leave and you're there and - who is the 8 ops lieutenant - wasn't? Can they say that you 9 relieved her even though you were activities' 10 lieutenant? 11 MR. : Mm. 12 MR. : Or is she not supposed to 13 write that? Or not supposed to be in there? 14 MR. : So who wrote that? 15 MR. Uh I don't know. It could be 16 - that's the thing. It could be a - it's like 17 a from the day's prior. So if you don't catch 18 it, you just going to keep it the same. So 19 it's like - because I'm ops - I know I was ops. 20 That's what I'm saying. So I must have came in 21 on doing overtime that day. So normally I 22 would relieve her. So she probably left it 23 that way anyway thinking okay it's the same. 24 You're not changing that. You know? 25 *01:59:23¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155
1	: Oh you mean the day MR.
2	before you were ops is what you're saying?
3	: Yeah. I think I was ops that MR.
4	whole quarter though. I think so yeah.
5	: So you were - that whole MR.
6	Why were you -? quarter you were ops?
7	: Overtime. MR.
8	: So overtime was a MR.
9	different duty?
10	: Yeah. MR.
11	MR. So you were the ops :
12	lieutenant up until that day? You were
13	activities' lieutenant that day though?
14	: Yeah. MR. I think so.
15	MR. So being that you were :
16	ops, were you also potentially acting as like
17	the ops lieutenant?
18	: MR. Mm.
19	: Like as in like since MR.
20	that were your normal duties would have you
21	also took - taken that on? Like hey, I know
22	I'm activities, but I'll do the ops role? And
23	this is, again, just to try to help recollect -
24
25	: I don't know. MR.

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 MR. : -- what you were doing. 2 MR. : I think I was ops that 3 quarter though. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Yeah. I was ops. 6 MR. : Again we don't have your 7 records. There was no reason for us to be 8 grabbing your records or anything like that. 9 So everything we're asking you about is simply 10 to help us fill in the blanks. 11 MR. : So based on what you said, 12 you think it's - the log is from previous date. 13 It was just a spite edit that wasn't caught on 14 to. 15 MR. : Yeah. The dry cell stuff. I 16 don't know about all that. But that's what it 17 looks like. It looked like the guy was in 18 there and they didn't key him out even though 19 he was in R&D. 20 MR. : So let's say if I'm in SHU 21 and I wanted to move somebody. Or you wanted 22 to move somebody in the SHU. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : You're going to - do you key 25 it in, or do you call in to somebody and tell¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157
1	them to key it in? Who keys it in?
2	: You can do it if you want to. MR.
3	You can do it by yourself.
4	: And let's say you move it. MR.
5	Is someone supposed to be notified hey, listen
6	Or you - the SHU CO's this person is moved?
7	can move the inmates by themselves?
8	: Someone from a different MR.
9	unit?
10	: MR. Like control or R&D? Yeah.
11	No you tell - you can call : MR.
12	control.
13	: Is it policy that control MR.
14	must be notified?
15	: I don't know if it's policy, MR.
16	but I mean, they taking a count it's good to
17	Hey, this is what's going on - got to know.
18	move this guy down to dry cell.
19	: And let's say - sorry. MR. Go
20	ahead.
21	MR. I was going to say I :
22	guess - are you asking like who is responsible
23	for doing the keying? Yeah who -?
24	: It could be CNA. MR.
25	MR. What's CNA? :

¶

1	: Yeah. MR.
2	: MR. Uh CNA, control.
3	: Control should have? MR.
4	: Number two. MR. Yeah.
5	: And how should have they MR.
6	been notified that they needed to make that
7	change? Who should have notified them that
8	that change needed to be made?
9	Mm. I mean Sue could have MR.
10	called ahead. This guy is keyed up here. He's
11	keyed down there.
12	MR. So I guess what I'm :
13	saying is like once an inmate is moved, and
14	control needs to be notified. Hey, this guy
15	that was in SHU is now in R&A. Who needs to
16	notify control to make those changes in the
17	system?
18	: The SHU. MR. They just
19	(Indiscernible *02:02:37) down there.
20	MR. So the SHU. :
21	: They'll call control. MR. Yeah.
22	So whenever - MR. Okay. :
23	let's say for instance we believe Fernandez was
24	moved from the SHU to R&A on dry cell. The SHU
25	should have contacted control and said we just

1	He needs to be rekeyed. made this movement.
2	: Yeah. MR.
3	: All right. MR. That's the
4	way it works?
5	: Yeah. MR.
6	: And again, these are just MR.
7	We don't know. questions.
8	: It could be that or the MR.
9	Either or. lieutenant could do it. Hey, I'm
10	moving this guy. I'm moving here.
11	MR. So should have a :
12	lieutenant been involved in that?
13	: Not necessarily. MR.
14	MR. Okay. And that's why :
15	we're just trying to figure out what is the
16	Like what is standard operating procedure?
17	typically - what is supposed to happen?
18	: I mean there's no typical. MR.
19	You get it done. Hey, I'm telling you to move
20	Or I say I'm moving this guy. The him.
21	lieutenant told me to move him. And yeah.
22	I guess but if anybody MR. :
23	can do it and no one is told to do it, I guess
24	- I would assume - that it would quite
25	frequently not be done because everyone would

1 be like "well he could have done it - he should 2 have done it." I'm saying like who is usually 3 supposed to do it? Who is like supposed to 4 take the lead of - make sure that that's done 5 or "we just moved this guy - control you know 6 like key that out." Like how is it supposed to 7 be done? Because otherwise, it's always going 8 to fall apart because then everyone is going to 9 say, "well that person could have done it - 10 that person could have done it." 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : So is there anybody 13 that's supposed to do it? 14 MR. : To notify? 15 MR. : Yeah. To make the 16 notifications so that the numbers can be 17 changed on the El? 18 MR. : Yeah. I would say the SHU 19 staff. 20 MR. : SHU staff. 21 MR. : They kind of say hey, this 22 guy is not up there. check to see where he's 23 at. 24 MR. : All right. 25 MR. : Maybe key him to R&D.¶

1 MR. : Sorry I didn't mean -. 2 MR. : No-no. That's exactly what I 3 was thinking or trying to get to. You said the 4 SHU staff could also key it in. If they keyed 5 it in, would this El document get updated? 6 MR. : Well these -. 7 MR. : Or would control have to 8 update it? 9 MR. : Control will update it. 10 MR. : So no matter even if the SHU 11 staff decided if they wanted to update it, 12 control manually has to update this document 13 specifically. 14 MR. : Yeah. Put a number on it. 15 Because this is the last one that was printed. 16 And then you make a change after that it's not 17 going to show. 18 MR. : Okay. This was -. 19 MR. : 9:30. 20 MR. : 9:30. But let's see the 4:00 21 p.m. count. I just want to see what time that 22 was printed. 23 MR. : 3:40. 24 MR. : And according to that, the 25 inmate was supposed to be moved at 3:15?¶

1	MR. : Nah.
2	: The daily log -? MR.
3	: Well you said two MR.
4	different - I was going to back to that. You
5	said - one time you said 3:15 and the other
6	time you said 4:00 p.m. Are you able to tell?
7	: Yeah. MR. It looks like
8	This is the So let's start with this. Okay.
9	9th, right?
10	: Yes. MR.
11	: So you got nobody starting MR.
12	the shift on dry cell. So this says 3:15
13	inmate Fernandez placed on dry cell from SHU.
14	MR. Can you just put a star :
15	next to that? All right. So then you believe
16	They that that is where things got screwed up?
17	never keyed him out.
18	: Yeah. MR. Inmate Fernandez
19	placed on dry cell; 75 in SHU; I do believe
20	All right. So at 9:00 on August
21	9th Friday he goes in at 3:15 in dry cell. And
22	he stays in there overnight. So the 4:00
23	count, he's still keyed in there though, right?
24	MR. Well that's what we're :
25	trying to figure out.

1	: Yeah. MR.
2	: Because it's not caught MR.
3	until -. So we believe from people that we
4	talked to, it was caught at midnight. And that
5	person who caught it said like this person is
6	on dry cell and then revised the numbers and
7	the count.
8	: Mm-hm. MR.
9	: Now we're trying to MR.
10	determine were the counts ever conducted in the
11	SHU?
12	: Mm. MR.
13	MR. It doesn't appear to us :
14	that they would have been. Because they would
15	have caught that at 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00
16	p.m. They would have said this is the number
17	of people we physically have present.
18	: Yeah but I don't see -. MR.
19	And even at midnight i MR. :
20	And it's changed to 72. still says 73. And to
21	us it suggests - and everyone else that we're
22	talking to - that we haven't shared this
23	You're one of a information with many people.
24	very select few that we're even showing this
25	stuff to.

1	: Mm-hm. MR.
2	: But the people that we've MR.
3	showed it to before says, hey the fact that
4	they're reporting 73 and the actual count is
5	72, they're basically getting the number from
6	this and just writing that down. They're not
7	actually conducting the counts. Would you
8	agree with that statement?
9	: They could do that. MR. Or they
10	could actually be counting but not counting.
11	Making sure that they're just walking and
12	making sure they're alive.
13	MR. So doing more of a round :
14	than a count?
15	: Yeah. MR.
16	And that is also one of MR. :
17	the things that we believe happened. Is that
18	at least on one of the instances, they did do a
19	round, but they didn't do an actual count.
20	: Yeah. Because honestly, I MR.
21	don't see it on this end. A 4:00 and a 10:00.
22	MR. You don't see what? :
23	: The missing of 4:00 and MR.
24	10:00.
25	MR. Yeah. The fact that they :

1	missed both seems very unlikely.
2	: Yeah. MR.
3	: If they're actually MR.
4	counting. Correct?
5	: Yeah. MR.
6	: And that's why we believe MR.
7	- and it sounds like you agree - they didn't
8	actually do the 4:00, the 10:00, or the
9	midnight count.
10	: No. I mean I'm thinking they MR.
11	did to the 4:00 and the 10:00.
12	MR. Even though the numbers :
13	are wrong?
14	: Yeah. MR. They probably just
15	went off the numbers.
16	: SO you think -- MR.
17	MR. What -- :
18	: -- they conducted the round? MR.
19	MR. They conducted a round :
20	not a count.
21	: Yeah. MR. Or something.
22	MR. I mean because they can't :
23	miss the number if they're actually counting
24	numbers both at 4:00 - or all not just both.
25	At 4:00, at 10:00, and at midnight, all of the

1 count slips are wrong. 2 MR. : Yeah but then that's what 3 those (Indiscernible *02:08:32) to plus one. 4 It's like they know they got someone, but then 5 it's like Like maybe they was told -. 6 MR. : But they're still using 7 the 73 plus one. It should be 72 plus one if 8 they're doing that. 9 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 10 MR. : Unless it was 73 minus 11 one. Then they could do it. But 73 plus one 12 seems to indicate they're using the number 13 that's provided -- 14 MR. : On the El. 15 MR. : -- and saying we got one 16 more down there. 17 MR. : Yeah. I don't know what was 18 going on with this. That's baffling. 19 MR. : All right. To your 20 knowledge, if they're not doing the count 21 though that's all on the SHU? The people that 22 are in there right now? Nothing to do with 23 lieutenants. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Okay. There's no way for¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168
1	like anyone else other than the people in the
2	Or let me ask it a different way. Is SHU
3	there any way for anyone other than the SHU to
4	know that they're not doing the counts?
5	: No. MR.
6	: No? Okay. MR. Anything that
7	you didn't initial, just again to say what it
8	is we showed you.
9	: (Indiscernible *02:09:41) MR.
10	MR. Is this one you or me? :
11	: MR. That's (Indiscernible
12	*02:09:48)
13	: So what does this pertain to MR.
14	- Thomas and Noel?
15	MR. Well it's everybody know. :
16	Because everybody that's in the SHU. Right?
17	We've got to talk to them. Hey, did you
18	conduct these counts. Or these you know?
19	Because this just brought to light the fact
20	that it doesn't appear that the counts were
21	So we've got to - that's ever being conducted.
22	why we've got to talk to the people that we
23	want to talk to first. People like yourself
24	Hey, do you that were lieutenants on duty.
25	Did you - do you know anything about this?

2 MR. I mean they wasn't counting. : 3 MR. Yeah-yeah-yeah. I know. : But I mean just letting you know like, oh yeah, 4 5 first we want to know about the cellmate. Hey, 6 Did you - it did you know anything about this? 7 looks like -. From the way that this memo 8 reads, we assumed that either you or told 9 hey, he's WAB. Make sure he gets a Because that's one of the reasons 10 cellmate. 11 why we want to talk -. 12 MR. Based on that memo? : 13 MR. because like the Yeah. : He's saying, I knew. I knew he 14 fact that was going WAB. And I told him. 15 16 MR. Mm-hm. : MR. Hey, make sure he gets a 17 : So the assumption that we were going 18 cellmate. off of is that either you and/or 19 Mm-hm. MR. : -- spoke to MR. ana : said he's going WAB. Make sure he gets a cellmate. MR. Mm. 24 : MR. But it sounds like what :	1	know?
	20
	21
	22
	23
	25

1	you're saying is you don't -. You didn't even
2	know, and you never had that conversation.
3	: With Reyes and everything. MR.
4	I don't even know - I never knew the dude No.
5	until that thing came out. You know what I
6	mean. He would have been notified.
7	: Right. MR.
8	: But then again, I mean, we do MR.
9	get notified. But usually R&D calls us up.
10	Hey, those two guys ain't coming back.
11	And is it your belief MR. :
12	though by that -? Would it be -? All right.
13	If you said you dint' speak to him. So
14	probably he was notified directly from control?
15	Or R&D?
16	: I would say probably R&D. MR.
17	So R&D wouldn't call MR. :
18	And control wouldn't call him? R&D control.
19	would call directly to the SHU?
20	: That's how we used to do it. MR.
21	That's how it MR. Okay. :
22	So when you were in the SHU - would always be?
23
24	: They call up -. MR.
25	MR. R&D would call you :

1	directly?
2	: But again that's evening MR.
3	watch. Again that's on evening watch.
4	: Right. MR.
5	: That guy's not coming back. MR.
6	: But at 1:50 that's early. MR.
7	And that's when it notified. So if All right.
8	he doesn't have WAB listed on his name on the
9	court list that morning. And that's what
10	people have told us. So we're going on the
11	assumption that - and this is an assumption.
12	That he was - somebody was contacted in the SHU
13	saying hey, it looks like he's not coming back.
14	But that's the first He did write possibly.
15	that we're seeing WAB.
16	: Mm-hm. MR.
17	So the thought is that MR. :
18	We haven't - we've someone contacted
19	got to talk to him. But like and say, hey,
20	doesn't look like he's coming back. You know
21	we're just notifying you now.
22	: Mm-hm. MR.
23	MR. And again we were told :
24	typically the way it works - and it sounds like
25	you're correcting us - R&D typically calls

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172
1	control. Control calls ops. Ops calls SHU.
2	Is that not correct?
3	MR. What. When an inmate doesn't :
4	come back?
5	MR. Yeah. :
6	MR. No. :
7	MR. No? It doesn't work that :
8	way? So R&D you're saying typically just would
9	go straight to SHU?
10	MR. That's a heads up. That's a :
11	courtesy.
12	MR. : Right.
13	MR. Hey, this guy's not coming :
14	Control knows. back.
15	MR. Right. :
16	: Control knows. MR. They could
17	call control too. But usually they call in you
18	know why would you call me?
19	I don't know. MR. :
20	You know? You in SHU. MR. :
21	That's just what we were MR. :
22	told.
23	Hey, this guy's not coming MR. :
24	back.
25	MR. And then again, we're :

1	only as good as who the people we talk to.
2	MR. Mm-hm. :
3	MR. Whatever information we :
4	get is like people like yourself trying to like
5	-. Hey, I know it's probably like yourself it
6	At least in the beginning of this sounds like.
7	thing, you seemed pretty nervous to talk to us
8	because we're really just trying to
9	MR. No-no. The thing about it -. :
10	This is a high The thing is. I know this.
11	profile case, looking to point fingers.
12	MR. Right-right-right-right. :
13	: Blame someone. MR. Who dropped
14	the ball? Who did this and that?
15	Totally get it. MR. :
16	MR. I mean two years later, now :
17	it's still like okay, let's go down and see.
18	And the reason why and MR. :
19	I'm sure you saw on the papers what happened
20	recently.
21	MR. Yeah. :
22	MR. Well that now allows us :
23	to try to come back and try to figure out. All
24	right. Now we can do -.
25	But you're going to go MR. Yeah. :

1 after a whole shift. You know. 2 MR. : It's not necessarily go 3 after the whole shift. But we've got to figure 4 out what went wrong at the MCC. And what needs 5 to be fixed. Do you know what I'm saying? 6 MR. : I mean -. 7 MR. : But I get -. Trust me -. 8 MR. : Just to deal - they have 9 suicides man. Like they do. 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. Totally. 11 MR. : He just happened to be a 12 high-profile one. 13 MR. : Right. And because it's 14 so high-profile, and the fact that there were - 15 16 MR. : The other things with the -- 17 yeah-yeah-yeah. 18 MR. : All these other things 19 are going on now. It looks like there was some 20 false you know slips that were created. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : They weren't doing 23 counts. You know we're getting these signs 24 saying that -- 25 MR. : Yeah but that stuff is --¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175
1	: -- hey, you're supposed MR.
2	to check on him every -.
3	-- not the normal though. MR.
4	Right-right-right-right. MR. • :
5	MR. ■ That's not the normal. :
6	Definitely.
7	MR. And : Yeah. So yeah.
8	It's because it's a high-profile you're right.
9
10	MR. : I was there for ten years. I
11	used to do that stuff and all that. That's not
12	normal.
13	: What's not normal? MR.
14	Missed counts and all this MR. :
15	and -. Yeah.
16	: And so you're saying that MR.
17	this seems to be abnormal?
18	MR. It's definitely abnormal. :
19	: When you were in the SHU, MR.
20	did you ever - were you ever - did you ever
21	experience people not doing counts?
22	MR. : No.
23	: People always did counts MR.
24	when you were there?
25	Yeah but here. MR. : Yeah.

1	: And that's -. MR.
2	MR. : Yeah.
3	: You know and that's what MR.
4	people - that's what the conspiracy theorists
5	come in and all that kind of stuff. Like wow,
6	this is one day? And that's where we've got to
7	-. All right. Well let's figure out what
8	Is this abnormal or is it actually happened.
9	You're saying that this seems to be a normal?
10	very abnormal day.
11	: I'm talking about that's why MR.
12	the counts and the slips and the rounds and the
13	falsifying stuff like that. But everything
14	else, I mean, this place is a busy place.
15	MR. Yeah. :
16	: You know? They lose - MR.
17	inmates go out WAB all the time. New inmates
18	come in.
19	MR. Yeah. :
20	: So this is a revolving door. MR.
21	All right. MR. I know we're :
22	taking a lot longer than we thought. Let me
23	just go through a lot of these things now.
24	Just back to the round sheet where -.
25	: Yeah. MR.

1	: What is the purpose of a MR.
2	supervisor actually signing this round sheet?
3	: Making sure the officer is MR.
4	filing and doing their rounds how they're
5	supposed to be.
6	: And we don't really need MR.
7	to look at it. Just. All right. So it's not
8	It's to verify to verify that they were done.
9	that the sheets are being kept up?
10	: So if I go up there and I see MR.
11	You all made a round after 40 the times.
12	What happened here? minutes.
13	MR. So you ask them about :
14	that.
15	: MR. Right.
16	MR. But on this date you :
17	can't - you don't remember going and speaking
18	to them?
19	: I said I could have went. MR.
20	don't recall.
21	MR. Okay. And again just :
22	going forward, know that these are just simply
23	questions to see what we can find out about
24	that day. And as well as you know the point
25	being you saying that this is such an abnormal

1	day. And it was such a big event that's been
2	in the news now for two years.
3	: Mm-hm. MR.
4	: Just try and really place MR.
5	What was your role on that day? yourself.
6	: Yeah. MR. Like I said I just
7	know I worked. And that was it.
8	: All right. MR. And as far as
9	you know, were rounds being conducted in the
10	SHU at that time?
11	: Yeah. MR. It's day watch.
12	You've got to make rounds.
13	MR. On day watch you've got :
14	to?
15	: There's no way you can avoid MR.
16	a round on day watch.
17	What about for - and I'm MR. :
18	not talking about just your shift - I'm saying
19	the SHU in general. Are you aware that rounds
20	weren't being conducted on evening watch or
21	morning watch?
22	: Weren't? MR.
23	MR. Yeah. Were not. :
24	: Evening watch you've got to MR.
25	make rounds too. I worked SHU for years.

1	: Yeah-yeah. MR.
2	: You have to. MR. You've got to
3	Yeah . go.
4	: So when you were there MR.
5	they were being conducted?
6	: Yeah. That's why I'm saying. MR.
7	The whole mess of the count thing. I'm like I
8	That's -. don't know.
9	: Any of those people that MR.
10	we discussed that were on day watch and you
11	know anybody working in the SHU on August 9th
12	and August 10th. Do you have any recollection
13	of speaking with any of those people about
14	morning watch or -? I mean not morning watch.
15	About speaking with about rounds or counts.
16	: No. MR.
17	No. MR. And now being that :
18	you were an ops - the ops lieutenant. It
19	sounds like your quarterly post. Would that be
20	something that you would visit with them and
21	just say hey guys make sure you're doing your
22	rounds or anything like that? Would that be a
23	duty or responsibility of an ops lieutenant?
24	: Yeah. But not - it's not MR.
25	really my responsibility. It's the SHU

¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 MR. : Yeah. But we all you know. 2 It's hey, you got the email. 3 MR. : Right. The email saying 4 he needs a cellmate. 5 MR. : Yeah-yeah. And all the 6 lieutenants know. They say oh no, such-and-7 such we got the email. He was off of watch. 8 You know? 9 MR. : Do you think it's 10 acceptable for any lieutenant to say that they 11 didn't know that Epstein needed a cellmate? 12 MR. : Some people say they didn't 13 know the cellmate left. 14 MR. : No. The - if they're 15 saying that Let's talk about just the 16 people on that day. Let's talk about like for 17 instance somebody that maybe wasn't normally a 18 lieutenant. Can you - 19 MR. : Mm-hm. 20 MR. : All right. So she's in - 21 you said basically she's in training. She's 22 like an acting lieutenant. She's the person -. 23 MR. : I don't think she was acting 24 that day either though. I mean -. 25 MR. : Well I just mean that she¶

1 was activities' lieutenant. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 3 MR. : Sorry. She was the 4 activities' lieutenant and she was either 5 training or she's typically an SIS at the time 6 though. Should have she known by Epstein being 7 on the hotlist and Epstein you know coming off 8 suicide watch. Should she have known that he 9 was required to have a cellmate? Just by -? 10 MR. : Uh-uh. No. 11 MR. : No? What about 12 Should he have known? 13 MR. : I mean that's only if you're 14 aware though. If I'm not aware, the guy left. 15 MR. : I thought you said if 16 you're - first of all, I thought you said that 17 18 MR. : Well, no. 19 MR. : Everybody knows that in 20 the SHU you're supposed to have a cellmate 21 unless you're a certain classification. 22 MR. : Yeah. But sometimes it be an 23 odd number and they can't have one. 24 MR. : But then the second thing 25 would be he's on the hotlist. Everybody knows¶

1	if you're on the hotlist you're supposed to
2	have a cellmate. Right?
3	: Yeah. MR.
4	: And then the third thing MR.
5	would be that there's an actual email that was
6	sent out and that said he's supposed to have a
7	cellmate.
8	: Right. MR.
9	: So that's where MR. With
10	And I'm not -- that all in mind -.
11	: About the notifications MR.
12	MR. -- pointing to one person :
13	What I'm just asking is out in particular.
14	So you're not these people that were working.
15	like throwing somebody under the bus.
16	: Oh well. MR.
17	MR. I'm just asking like as :
18	far as these people. Should have known
19	that there should have been -? And I'm not
20	saying that he knew. These people may very
21	well have not have known that I'm
22	just asking like -.
23	: MR. Yeah but I'm thinking.
24	MR. In general with their :
25	positions.

	184 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1	: In general. Well MR.
2	probably never got the email.
3	: Like you're saying you MR.
4	He knew. Should have So yes. knew.
5	known?
6	: I think all lieutenants MR.
7	should know.
8	: What about -? MR.
9	: But then again, we all - if MR.
10	you're not aware to the inmate's leaving,
11	there's no reason to follow-up.
12	And that's why I started MR. :
13	So at this point you said at least after you.
14	by 8:00, people should know -.
15	: That the guy's not coming MR.
16	back or something.
17	He's not coming back. MR. :
18	: Yeah. MR.
19	So that's where I'm going MR. :
20	Alright, there's three lieutenants off of -.
21	After you leave, there's from that point.
22	There's three lieutenants. Right?
23	: Mm-hm. MR.
24	MR. -:
25	: Mm-hm. MR.

¶

1 happens all the time though. Like the guy 2 comes off suicide watch. You put him in SHU 3 with a cellmate. And then again, that's not 4 forever. 5 MR. : Yeah-yeah. But in this 6 case, you know, July 30th to August 9th or 7 10th. 8 MR. : But is it a set -? I don't 9 think -. That's up to psychology. Because we 10 have guys that - suicide watch. Same thing. 11 Once they leave, they didn't commit suicide and 12 it's nothing. 13 MR. : So if you get this email 14 then on July 30th saying make sure he's got a 15 cellmate. 16 MR. : There's no time on it. 17 MR. : In your mind, is that -? 18 Well two weeks from now? He doesn't need one 19 anymore. 20 MR. : There's no set time. It's 21 just immediately this guy's coming off. A guy 22 maybe got kicked to the unit. 23 MR. : Okay. So in his case -. 24 All right. How should it have been -? What 25 kind of notification should have been made¶

1	then?
2	: This is a tough one. But if MR.
3	a guy goes to court and he leaves, you know and
4	There's so you're doing your daily operations.
5	Epstein ain't the - I know he's much going on.
6	high-profile out to the outside.
7	: But I mean he's still on MR.
8	the hotlist.
9	: Yeah. MR.
10	MR. So he's on the hotlist :
11	still. So doesn't that indicate he needs
12	If he's still on the hotlist. cellmate?
13	: Yeah. MR. But he had one.
14	Right?
15	And that's why MR. Right. :
16	By - we're knocking you and we're I'm saying.
17	out of this thing because you're knocking
18	saying 8:00. So let's now look at 8:00 on.
19	Let's say - even for this instance let's even
20	they didn't know. Now say and
21	Certainly by let's look at
22	midnight you should have known. Right?
23	: Yeah. But not a lieutenant MR.
24	though.
25	MR. No? :

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 MR. : Like if the information isn't 2 told to me 3 MR. : But if they're coming in 4 You said that they needed to do a around. 5 Right? Don't these - for this case 6 needed to do a round in the SHU. 7 Correct? 8 MR. : Mm-hm. 9 MR. : Check on all the inmates. 10 MR. : Check inmates, feeding, or 11 officers - making sure they doing the rounds or 12 got to go to SHU. 13 MR. -: Was she 14 required to check on all the inmates and do a 15 round? 16 MR. : When she was probably doing a 17 round. Yeah. 18 MR. : All right. So as far as 19 her. By that point, now we've only got -. You 20 know we're now -. You know let's say that 21 she's the one that corrected you know the count 22 slip. She caught that. She goes. She visited 23 -. She's supposed to go to the SHU. She's 24 supposed to actually visit all the tiers and do 25 a round?¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 MR. : I mean our policy is really 2 to say you've got to do a round in the SHU. 3 You know. So you in SHU, you in SHU. I don't 4 know what did she do. 5 MR. : And that's where I was 6 getting to before. Is doing a round in the SHU 7 for a lieutenant - does that mean just walking 8 into the SHU and walking out? Or does that 9 entail actually doing something when you're in 10 there? 11 MR. : I don't think -. There's no 12 guidance on that. 13 MR. : So we've had other people 14 tell us that when you - a lieutenant is 15 actually required to walk the tiers and conduct 16 a round. Not to list it on the round sheet, 17 but like it were - like the people who list 18 those rounds on the rounds sheet. Is that 19 you're understanding of what you were supposed 20 to do? 21 MR. : I mean yeah. 22 MR. : So is that what she 23 should have done? She should have walked the 24 tiers and checked on the inmates? 25 MR. : Yeah. I mean -.¶

¶

¶

1 policies. I don't have the psychology. 2 MR. : Isn't it in there? 3 MR. : I don't know. I was 4 going to look. 5 MR. : Yeah. Let me see. It might 6 be. Psychology is definitely the 30-minute 7 rounds. I know. 8 MR. : Again these aren't "I 9 gotcha." These are just genuine questions. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : But psychology you think 12 might have it with like lieutenants -. 13 MR. : Well they definitely with the 14 30 minutes. The -. 15 MR. : Yeah. I mean the SHU 16 policy clearly states that rounds need to be 17 conducted. I just haven't seen anything that 18 said lieutenants need to do it. And that's 19 where - I mean you can look through them if you 20 want. 21 MR. : Nah. 22 MR. : If you can 23 MR. : I think it's in there. It 24 may not be in this, but it's definitely in 25 there. Speaking of lieutenants, we don't need¶

1 to make you look in this. We'll look it up. 2 MR. : This is post orders. 3 MR. : We'll dig into that. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : But you think it's 6 probably in the SHU? 7 MR. : Yeah. It's a round, but to 8 say specific go 10, check on and all that. I 9 don't know if it says all that. 10 MR. : All right. It just says 11 you need to conduct a round. And then 12 different people interpret it different way. 13 MR. : Yeah. Yep. 14 MR. : All right. You said -. 15 MR. : But then again, if you don't 16 get the information, I can see it being missed. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : Because if no one tells me 19 that the guy left -. 20 MR. : But if she says that I 21 know Reyes left, I know Epstein is by himself. 22 But I didn't know he needed a cellmate. 23 MR. : Mm-hm. 24 MR. : Does that make sense to 25 you at all?¶

1	: I mean. MR. Unless she didn't
2	get the email or she's not -. I don't know how
3	it is. Maybe she wasn't aware.
4	: But I mean that fact that MR.
5	- again - those three things we talked about.
6	I understand you say like odd number or you
7	know that kind of stuff. But the fact that
8	there's an email that went out, there's the
9	hotlist that has his name on it, and the fact
10	that he's in the SHU and he's not one of those.
11	So one of those three, she should have at least
12	known, right, that Epstein was required to have
13	a cellmate?
14	: Yeah. MR.
15	MR. So her saying I didn't :
16	Is that to you like, of course you knew. know.
17	Whereas -. You're been around for a long time.
18	: I mean I'm thinking she needs MR.
19	- no one told her.
20	No one verbalized it Lc MR. :
21	her.
22	: Yeah. MR. Yeah.
23	MR. But do you think that :
24	that's an appropriate excuse for a lieutenant?
25	Saying that I didn't know if those three things

1	are in place?
2	: I'm not sure. MR.
3	: You're not sure. MR. And I
4	know you don't want to like - you know - but
5	like - I'm just trying to reconcile it too.
6	Like alright, if you're saying you didn't know,
7	how is that possible if everybody else -.
8	Everybody else I talked to seems to know.
9	: Then again, I told you the MR.
10	hotlist and all that. That's things that's
11	like -. Like the email, even though it's out,
12	that's - there's no timeframe on that.
13	But the fact that MR. : Yeah.
14	they're still on the hotlist, I would think
15	that that would continue because the email went
16	out --
17	: Yeah. MR.
18	-- but then you're also MR. :
19	And if you're on the placed on the hotlist.
20	hotlist it basically corresponds with that
21	email. Correct?
22	: Yeah. But the hotlist is for MR.
23	So you get locked up, that's when I'm initial.
24	I know I'm checking to see if this checking.
25	inmate is on the hotlist. Initially.

1 MR. : So only when the hotlist 2 changes? You're not looking at the people that 3 are still on the hotlist? 4 MR. : Well I'm saying like if 5 there's ten on there. and a guy gets locked up 6 - Williams from 11 North. He comes and he just 7 got a psych alert and we make sure he get a 8 bunkie. He got a bunkie. He goes a month with 9 a bunkie. Day 31 we're not still - you know. 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah. So in this 11 case you think even July 30th to August 9th 12 when the guy leaves that could be enough time 13 to say he doesn't need one anymore? 14 MR. : I mean I'm not psychology. 15 MR. : All right. And you don't 16 know of psychology making any more -? No one 17 told you -? 18 MR. : No one specified the time 19 frame - 20 MR. : I need to -. 21 MR. : -- about how long he was 22 going to be -. 23 MR. : Did anyone after July 24 30th after receiving that email, did anyone 25 walk to you about Epstein needing a cellmate?¶

¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 MR. : That was maybe ten days. 2 MR. : Because I don't know. I 3 don't know. I know they (Indiscernible 4 *02:30:39) to us so I don't know their policy. 5 Because I know they supposed to follow-up. And 6 then there's steps to it. I don't know. I'm 7 not familiar with that policy. 8 MR. : Okay. But you think it 9 was psychology's - they're the ones that should 10 have made sure like there's people -- 11 MR. : Well they 12 MR. : -- in the SHU and the 13 MR. : They sent out the email to 14 us. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : They notified us. 17 MR. : But you're saying like 18 that could be like a day or two. It doesn't 19 mean that two weeks from there it matters. 20 MR. : Yeah, I mean. That happens 21 two weeks after that? Yeah. The guy goes to 22 court. He leaves. There's a time and 23 opportunity. And I don't think it's nobody's 24 fault. 25 MR. : You think it's just -?¶

1	: I just don't think it's MR.
2	nobody's fault.
3	: Okay. MR. And do you recall
4	this sign - or any sign - hanging up saying
5	that he needed a cellmate, or he needed to be
6	30-minute rounds on him?
7	: I definitely don't recall MR.
8	that. Signs about you saying him needed rounds
9	or -?
10	MR. That's the rounds. :
11	: No the one that - MR.
12	MR. And then you don't -. :
13	: Another one is. MR.
14	MR. Another one saying that :
15	he was required to have a cellmate.
16	: The sign? MR.
17	So we've been told that MR. :
18	there was a sign saying that Epstein was
19	required to have a cellmate in the SHU on the
20	desk area.
21	: Could have been. I don't MR.
22	know. I don't be in the desk area.
23	So you don't - you're not MR. :
24	But you know that there was a hotlist aware?
25	at least.

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 MR. : No. The hotlist is there. 2 It's been there since I was working there. The 3 hotlist is back there. And that's about it. 4 MR. : And do you know if 5 Epstein was on the hotlist? 6 MR. : No. I'm not sure. 7 MR. : You're not sure. 8 MR. : Do you have the hotlist? 9 MR. : Not with us. No. I don't 10 think. Do we have it? No. You said you 11 didn't even as the ops lieutenant you don't 12 recall specific conversations with anybody that 13 worked in the SHU on August 9th or 10th? No? 14 MR. : Specific conversation, no. 15 It was a regular day. 16 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I mean 17 up - leading from basically July 30th to August 18 9th. 19 MR. : Oh. About the -? 20 MR. : About the need for 21 checking on Epstein or a cellmate or anything 22 to do with Epstein? 23 MR. : No. All I know is when he 24 tried it the first time, he went to suicide 25 watch. Came off. And they put him with the¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 other guy. No-no. They put him with someone 2 else. I don't know. 3 MR. : So initially he is with - 4 is it Tartaglione? 5 MR. : Tartaglione he was named. 6 Yeah. 7 MR. : And then he went to 8 suicide watch. 9 MR. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : Came back on Jul 30th 11 like that. So from July 30th to August 9th. 12 As ops lieutenant or otherwise, did you have 13 any conversations with anybody working on the 14 SHU - in the SHU - on August 9th or August 10th 15 about Epstein? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : And what were those 18 conversations entail? 19 MR. : Uh you know just hey, leave 20 him with - just gotta make sure they got down 21 here early. You've got legal visits. Uh I 22 know he was asking for a phone call. This is 23 like basic you know regular stuff. 24 MR. : What about with regard to 25 making sure they're doing rounds or that he has¶

1 a cellmate? Did you have any conversations 2 from the time you got that email on? After you 3 got that email, did you call down to the SHU 4 and say hey, or visit the SHU, and say hey make 5 sure he's got a -? 6 MR. : I can't recall. 7 MR. : Did you -? 8 MR. : And I wouldn't do it if I'm 9 not the - 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : You know? 12 MR. : Did you take any action 13 after receiving that email? Did you talk to 14 anybody about it? 15 MR. : I can't recall. 16 MR. : That email was Why 17 was that email sent out to all the lieutenants? 18 MR. : I told you. They send it out 19 every time someone comes off suicide watch. 20 MR. : Right. So what is the 21 purpose of that? 22 MR. : For the doing they job. 23 MR. : So by you getting it and 24 doing your job as like an ops lieutenant. Or 25 an activities' lieutenant. What does that¶

1 that something that you're supposed to make 2 other people aware of? Or why do they provide 3 you with that information? 4 MR. : I think they required to. 5 MR. : They're required to? 6 MR. : I think they're required, or 7 it could be a reminder. Hey, by the way, this 8 guy's getting released off suicide watch and 9 placed him with an inmate in SHU. 10 MR. : But is it so you can then 11 follow-up to make sure the CO's know? Or there 12 must be a reason rather than just for your own 13 information. There's got to be. Usually 14 you're provided information for a specific 15 reason. So why are lieutenants provided that 16 information? Rather than just the SHU 17 lieutenant? Why are everybody else provided 18 it? 19 MR. : Uh I'm not sure. But they 20 send an email out to everybody though. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : Lieutenants (Indiscernible 23 *02:35:05). 24 MR. : SO that's what I'm 25 saying. Well it's not an all-staff email.¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 It's like -. 2 MR. : No. It's a correctional 3 services and correctional systems. Right? 4 MR. : Oh you can tell me. Here 5 I'll show you. I thought it was primarily 6 lieutenants. I mean I think a couple SHU staff 7 might be on there. But it's the three pages 8 behind it. 9 MR. : Okay. So suicide watch psych 10 observation update. So you got legal in here, 11 food service, case managers, lieutenants, unit 12 team -. 13 MR. : So by reviewing that are 14 you able to tell like is there a target 15 audience that they're 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : -- sending it out to? 18 MR. : This is to make everybody 19 aware. 20 MR. : Because it's not an all-21 staff email though is it? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : So who are they sending 24 it to? 25 MR. : Uh....¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 MR. : Like how do they come up 2 with that group of people to send it to? 3 MR. : It's the same way we do the 4 logs. We send it to eh same group every night. 5 MR. : What group is that? 6 MR. : Then Executive staff, then 7 lieutenants, then psychology, then a psycho 8 assistant, it's a 9 MR. : So is it all correctional 10 staff though? 11 MR. : Correctional staff yeah. 12 It's not all correctional officers though. 13 MR. : So is everybody but the 14 officers? 15 MR. : You got some officers on here 16 too. 17 MR. : But you're not sure how 18 they make that decision? 19 MR. : No. Yeah. You got medical, 20 lieutenants, food service, R&D, legal, duty 21 officer, yeah. I mean I think they would 22 probably do this it's for your information. 23 Like FYI. 24 MR. : But you know -. I 25 understand where the FYI.¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206¶

1 MR. : Is that a target audience? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : You're not clear on why 5 they -- 6 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:37:15) No. 7 MR. send it to those 8 specific people? Okay. But as far as you 9 receiving it. 10 MR. : Yeah, I can't recall if i 11 spoke to him about it up internal or not. 12 MR. : And that wouldn't be like 13 - that's not the way it works whereas provide 14 the information to lieutenants and the 15 lieutenants make sure that you provide the 16 information the COs? 17 MR. : It depends on your area. 18 Like if I'm the SHU lieutenant right now, 19 right. 20 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 21 MR. : So they say hey, this 22 guy's coming in. Make sure. Okay. Make sure 23 you know. I'm saying directly to the staff I'm 24 supervising. 25 MR. : Is it the ops¶

1	lieutenant's job to make sure the SHU
2	lieutenant does it?
3	: Mm. MR.
4	: Is there any oversight MR.
5	Does the ops lieutenant kind of have there?
6	oversight over the SHU lieutenant?
7	: I mean sometimes the SHU MR.
8	lieutenant has rank on an ops lieutenant.
9	: Oh. It depends on if MR.
10	you're a 9 or an 11?
11	: yeah. MR.
12	MR. All right. So it's not :
13	based upon the position that you're holding?
14	Like the ops lieutenant doesn't - like that
15	position doesn't
16	: I mean we don't supervise MR.
17	No lieutenant supervises lieutenants.
18	lieutenants.
19	MR. Okay. :
20	: That's - we have a MR.
21	supervisor.
22	MR. No-no-no. And again, :
23	these are questions just for us to try to
24	understand how the operation works here.
25	: Yeah. MR.

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 MR. : And it again, not placing 2 blame on you whatsoever. It's just trying to 3 figure out how is it supposed to work? If 4 they're saying it's you, are you supposed to do 5 something with that information? 6 MR. : I mean but the thing is they 7 follow-up into that time. 8 MR. : What do you mean? 9 MR. : He had a bunkie up until that 10 time. 11 MR. : Right. So they put it 12 out. He had a bunkie. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : And then he didn't. And 15 that's what we're trying to figure out. 16 MR. : And then (Indiscernible 17 *02:38:39). 18 MR. : Who - where was the 19 communication breakdown? Who should have at 20 that time taken action to make sure he had a 21 bunkie? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : And that's the whole 24 thing we're looking into. Who should have made 25 sure Epstein -? Once Reyes was removed and¶

1	people were notified that he was removed. Who
2	should have taken action?
3	: yeah. MR.
4	: And who in your opinion MR.
5	should have?
6	: I don't know man that's MR.
7	Yeah. tough one.
8	: But like even position MR.
9	Not to name names. wise. What position should
10	have taken action?
11	MR. Mm. I'm not sure. I'm not
12	sure with that one there.
13	MR. Okay. :
14	: I just - that just MR. The
15	guy left and I mean, you know.
16	Now I'm just handing you MR. :
17	back this lieutenant log.
18	: MR. Mm-hm.
19	: MR. You know a few pages
20	But um did you - were you involved with back.
21	that lieutenant's log? Did you make any
22	entries on that lieutenant log on August 9th?
23	: I'm not sure. MR.
24	MR. Are you able to Yeah. :
25	tell by looking at it? Like is that something

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210
1	you can tell who made entries? Or is it anyone
2	can make an entry?
3	: I mean we all can make an MR.
4	entry.
5	: Does it show like MR.
6	initials or anything like that after an entry
7	Does it show who made what entry? was made?
8	: No. MR.
9	: No? MR. Does it show
10	anything with regard to Reyes on that
11	lieutenant's log?
12	: Yeah. MR.
13	MR. What does it say? :
14	: MR. Reyes to pre-remove.
15	MR. And what does that mean? :
16	: Pre-trial remove. MR.
17	Does that mean that he's MR. :
18	leaving and he's not coming back?
19	: Yeah. MR. Yeah.
20	MR. What time does it say :
21	that?
22	: Or -. Yeah. Or -. Yeah. It MR.
23	depends. 8:38.
24	MR. Does that mean So 8:38. :
25	at 8:39 pretrial to remove? Does that mean

1 that they knew at 8:38 that he wasn't coming 2 back? 3 MR. : Not necessarily. 4 MR. : What does it mean? 5 MR. : It means that's when they put 6 the information in. 7 MR. : But I'm saying like what 8 the information says. Is that what normally 9 that people are going to court - what it says 10 for them - if they're coming back? 11 MR. Mm. No. Normally they say 12 it's taken off the count. Pretrial is removed. 13 So he was taken off the count from 7:00 to 6:00 14 he was taken off the count. 15 MR. : Are people that go to 16 court always taken off the count? 17 MR. : Mm. No. 18 MR. : So by looking at that, 19 that tells you that he was already WAB? 20 MR. Mm. I mean if they go to 21 Brooklyn, sometimes they take them off for a 22 different court. But this one here, I would 23 say yeah, taken off the count. And again I'm 24 not sure. I see pre-remove proof. Pre-remove. 25 MR. : But by saying pre-remove,¶

¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : If he was coming back, what 3 would it show? Would it say pre-remove or 4 would it say something else? 5 MR. : See that's the thing is 6 mean. 7 MR. : Like not that he was 8 coming back. Like if he's just going to court, 9 and you don't know if he's coming back or not. 10 If he's going to court. 11 MR. : Mm-hm. 12 MR. : And he's not WAB. Would 13 it say that? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : So it would only say that 16 if they thought he wasn't coming back? 17 MR. Mm. Yeah. Probably. 18 MR. : All right. So then it 19 looks like from looking at that. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : At - by 8:38, we knew he 22 was probably not coming back? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : All right. And with that 25 knowledge, should have any action - or should¶

1 have any notification at least been made of 2 hey, Epstein's cellmate is likely not coming 3 back. We need to start thinking about a new 4 cellmate. For the people that knew. 5 MR. : I'm not sure. You know. The 6 thing is this is when it was -. See our log is 7 not -. I could go in and see what time someone 8 left and input it. 9 MR. : Mm-hm. 10 MR. : That's what we do. At the 11 end of the shift. 12 MR. : So at 4:00 p.m. this 13 could have been updated is what you're saying? 14 Not at 8:30? 15 MR. : Uh probably like 3:00 around 16 there. Yeah. It's not the only one. 17 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying 18 specifically, I'm just saying like later in the 19 day. 20 MR. : It's not an ongoing thing. 21 MR. : It could have been -. So 22 But does that But do you wouldn't put 23 8:38 - this is when that happened - if at 8:38 24 you dint' know that. Would you? 25 MR. : Well if I don't check it, I¶

1 wouldn't know it. 2 MR. : Right. I'm not saying 3 you specifically. 4 MR. : No I mean anybody. If I go 5 on the computer and it has a time. And it says 6 these are the people that left. That's what 7 I'm going off of. 8 MR. : So -. 9 MR. : If I don't check it at 8:38 10 or - I won't know. 11 MR. : So when I say "you" 12 though I'm talking about BOP. So what I'm 13 saying is like the person who entered that. 14 They're entering it as if at 8:38 it was known 15 that he was likely not coming back. Is that 16 correct? 17 MR. : It was known to BOP. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying 21 "you" I'm saying -. 22 MR. : BOP. There's no officers 23 would yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah. And who likely 25 would have entered that? Like who has access¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216
1 to enter that? Control and lieutenants. Who
2 else?
3 MR. Mm. I think that's about it.
 4 MR. : All right. So at that
 5 time, it would have been either you,
6 control. Correct?
 7 MR. Mm. I'm not sure.
 8 MR. : But I'm just saying like
 9 it's - you're the only two lieutenants on. And
10 then control. Right?
11 MR. : Again, I'm not sure.
12 MR. : And this is all just - I

13 didn't even realize this until we're now 14 reviewing it. So this isn't a - I promise you 15 this isn't like a setup. This is just trying 16 of figure out.¶

17 MR. : I'm not sure. Because what 18 if - what if I say hey, I didn't do the log. 19 Or what if hey, you forgot the log. You have 20 to do this.¶

¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217
1	I ain't touch the log. All MR. :
2	right. Whatever. I got you.
3	MR. Right-right. So you :
4	don't - so what you're just saying is you don't
5	know if it was --
6	MR. I don't know. :
7	MR. -- you, :
8	MR. I don't know. :
9	-- or control? MR. :
10	MR. I don't know who did it. :
11	MR. All right. Because I :
12	mean like I know like I'm pretty sure
13	knew he was going but he didn't know he wasn't
14	coming back. Is that correct?
15	MR. Yes. :
16	So that's - I think MR. :
17	that's what you're -.
18	MR. But the thing about it Yeah. :
19	with this is if I relieve you and you didn't do
20	nothing. Hey, you know, look out for me. I
21	got you next time. Okay. So just because it's
22	on day watch don't mean day watch staff did it.
23	MR. So that -. :
24	MR. You know what I'm saying. :
25	MR. So that could have been :

¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 MR. : I don't know who did this. 2 Was it day watch or what? 3 MR. : And there's no way to 4 tell by looking at it? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : Is there in Sentry any 7 way to tell who entered it? 8 MR. : We don't do the Sentry. We 9 just take the information off of Sentry. 10 MR. : Oh. Well who would have 11 put it in Sentry? 12 MR. : R&D. 13 MR. : Okay. So R&D could have 14 put it in Sentry and then whomever - either one 15 of the lieutenants or control would have typed 16 it in? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Or yeah somebody. 20 MR. : All right. So with this 21 information at 8:38, would it have been - if at 22 8:38 we knew that -? And when I say "we" - BOP 23 or whomever - R&D. control - knew that he was 24 going and likely not coming back. Who should 25 have starting making those notifications that¶

1	Epstein was without a cellmate? Is that SHU
2	Is it lieutenants? staff?
3	: He said they known at this MR.
4	time?
5	: Yeah. MR. So at 8:38, he's
6	going WAB. He leaves with a brown paper bag
7	and he' got stuff with him. He knows he's not
8	Reyes is saying I'm out. coming back. I'm not
9	coming back.
10	: Mm-hm. MR.
11	MR. Who should have at that :
12	point should have it been the SHU staff that
13	started making notifications? Hey, we know
14	Epstein's cellmate is gone. We need to start
15	Is that you know the ops making some rounds.
16	or the activities' lieutenant should have said
17	hey, he's gone. We've got to notify the
18	captain.
19	: I mean the thing of it is. MR.
20	Like who should have -? MR. :
21	: I don't even know who the MR.
22	dude is.
23	MR. Right. :
24	: So for one, a regular staff MR.
25	wouldn't even know who bunkie is.

220¶

1 MR. : And that's where my 2 question. Should SHU have started saying like 3 this is - hey ops and activities' lieutenant. 4 This Reyes guy is Epstein's cellmate. We need 5 to start thinking about putting a cellmate and 6 getting a new cellmate assigned. 7 MR. : That's again if they 8 definitely knew he wasn't coming back. Just 9 because this - like you can get a pre-remove 10 MR. : And is that why -? 11 MR. : And then at 4:50 you get pre-12 removed to such-and-such. 13 MR. : Okay. So is that why 14 memo that said, "possibly not coming 15 back and will likely need a new cellmate." Is 16 that why that's the appropriate response? 17 MR. : Possibly. Probably. Because 18 he knows who to tell. 19 MR. : And is that why you're 20 saying that they would have written possibly 21 because at this point it looks like it's 22 likely, but it's not definite. 23 MR. : Yeah. I could see him 24 could see that happening because like you said, 25 this happens all the time.¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222
: All right. MR. Because again
it says that inmate Reyes was going WAB and
possibly may not return. Also that inmate
Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival
from his attorney visit. So looks like they
knew - SHU. Should have told you -
activities' lieutenant - or - ops
lieutenant?
: I mean. MR.
MR. I'm not saying that he :
did or that you know. You already said you
dint'.
: I'm not even saying that he MR.
should have.
MR. oh. :
: I don't know. MR.
Okay. MR. :
: If he was notified, and he MR.
said it could be. Again I told you 8:00.
That's (Indiscernible *02:49:44) guys come in
all the time from court.
MR. Yeah-yeah. But I'm just :
saying with the fact that Epstein - everybody
knows he needs a cellmate. Should have they
notified up the chain of command at this point?

1	: What if he came back at 8:00? MR.
2	: But what I'm saying is MR.
3	like the fact that they know it's possible and
4	likely. Should have they started making
5	notifications being that you were the ops
6	lieutenant for a long time. You were a
7	lieutenant now it seems for a number of years.
8	In your expert opinion as a lieutenant --
9	: Mm-hm. MR.
10	MR. Should these guys have :
11	started making some notifications?
12	MR. Mm. That's hard to say.
13	Because if you pass on this information,
14	possibly the guy shows up at 8:00. What
15	notification I need to make?
16	So you were the MR. Okay. :
17	activities' lieutenant and was the
18	activities' lieutenant when that thing says
19	Do you believe -- 8:38.
20	: He said that um -. MR.
21	MR. as that person who was
22	you know the ops and the activities' lieutenant
23	- those two people. Do you believe at that
24	time that these notifications should have been
25	Would have you - do you believe made to you?

¶

1	information saying hey guys, you know he's
2	saying he said it's the day of and
3	Right as he's gone, that's Epstein's
4	He's going to - like if he doesn't cellmate.
5	come back, definitely he's going to need a
6	cellmate.
7	: He said that to who you MR.
8	saying?
9	: Well this is what the MR.
10	It says that - again, "On Friday, memo says.
11	August 9, 2019, at approximately 1:50 p.m., I
12	) passed on to oncoming staff member
13	and present shift staff - Officer
14	- that inmate Reyes was and Officer
15	going WAB and possibly may not return. Also
16	that inmate Epstein will be needing a cellmate
17	upon arrival from his attorney visit."
18	: Okay. MR. So and
19	was on day watch?
20	Uh I don't know. :- MR. :
21	sounds like what he says is that he told
22	MR. -:
23	MR. And these guys were also :
24	present.
25	: So in my expert option, at MR.

1 that time, he did the right thing. 2 MR. : All right. So by this, 3 he shouldn't have passed it up to the ops and 4 activities' lieutenant. He should have kept it 5 in-house until it was definite. 6 MR. : It's premature. Yeah. 7 MR. : Okay. Because that would 8 have been premature prior to this time. 9 MR. : Yeah. Because like I said 10 that time. If he came back, then oh. I 11 thought you said we need to know to change him 12 out or we start - yeah. 13 MR. : And even keeping in mind 14 that both Tartaglione, or however you pronounce 15 his name. 16 MR. : Well after that I don't think 17 he was bunked with him after that. 18 MR. : Him and -. No-no-no. 19 What I'm saying is both of his previous inmates 20 - Epstein I'm saying - Reyes and Tartaglione 21 they were both vetted from the highest of 22 levels. Even with that knowledge, you think 23 that they should have still waited. 24 MR. : I mean I don't under -. 25 MR. : They were vetted by the¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 227
1	captain, the warden, and the regional director.
2	MR. Yeah. :
3	MR. So obviously it took some :
4	doing.
5	MR. Mm-hm. But didn't get -.
6	With that knowledge, do MR. :
7	you think that they should have told you? Or
8	no you still think it's premature.
9	At 1:50? Um. MR. :
10	MR. Well I mean not at 1:50. :
11	MR. I mean I don't know. :
12	It looks like 8:38. MR. :
13	MR. Then again, I told you about :
14	If I don't check for it, I don't know -. that.
15	MR. no-no-no. I'm not saying :
16	I'm not saying you checking for him. You
17	already
18	MR. No. I'm talking about :
19	anybody.
20	Yeah-yeah-yeah. But what MR. :
21	I'm saying like it appears that in looking at
22	that, it appears that they knew he was WAB
23	since 8:38, right?
24	MR. Yeah. :
25	MR. So I'm saying between :

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 8:38 and whatever the end of your shift is -- 2 MR. : No one said nothing to us. 3 MR. : -- do you believe someone 4 should have said something to you? 5 MR. : I'm not sure. Because then 6 again, you could look at another log where 7 it'll say from pre-remove to ZA. You 8 understand? 9 MR. : Right. Because he didn't 10 actually -. 11 MR. : So that's why I could see him 12 saying well I'm letting y'all know. I'm 13 passing on to you and you because you're going 14 to be here. Possibly. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : I'm giving you the heads up. 17 MR. : So I guess -. And I 18 understood you answered that question. But 19 what I said was - considering the fact that it 20 takes at least almost an entire day to vet who 21 was even going to be placed with him, do you 22 think that they should have started moving this 23 up the chain of command knowing that this guy - 24 no inmate - just a regular inmate shouldn't be 25 placed with this guy. He needs to be vetted.¶

1 It's vetted all the way up to the regional 2 director's level. 3 MR. : Yeah. I'm not sure on that 4 one. 5 MR. : Yeah sure. Yeah. All 6 right. Not sure. So is there anything else if 7 it says with Reyes? Does it say when he was 8 actually -- 9 MR. : It just says 8:38 pre-10 removed. That means taken off the count. Now 11 if he comes back, it will say pre-removed to 12 ZA. And it kind of changes. 13 MR. : So because it says pre-14 removed, there's no reason to note when they 15 were definitively told he wasn't coming back? 16 MR. : Yeah. This just means he 17 went to court. Right? So you have three going 18 out. Meaning you're off on count. 19 MR. : Mm-hm. 20 MR. : It could be in the Eastern 21 District - whatever. If you do come back, they 22 put you back on. 23 MR. : But only if you come 24 back. Otherwise, they won't name you again. 25 MR. : So this isn't definite.¶

1	: It's indefinite? MR.
2	MR. : Yeah.
3	: All right. MR.
4	: I mean no this is not MR.
5	That means he's possibly - he could definite.
6	Just because it says pre-removed, come back.
7	he'll come back.
8	: But what I'm saying is MR.
9	the fact that he didn't come back. Should have
10	there been another note saying he is now
11	definitely off of our books.
12	: No. You just don't see it on MR.
13	the - you just don't see it.
14	MR. So just by him not being :
15	back on it that just means hey, refer back -.
16	: Yeah. MR.
17	MR. Hey, refer back to that :
18	thing where it said that he was possibly not
19	coming back.
20	: Yep. MR.
21	MR. There should not be any :
22	more notes saying like he's gone.
23	: No. MR. Only think because if
24	I'm evening watch, the only think I'm checking
25	for is the pre-removed to the institution. So

1 these three, hey did they come back today or 2 are they off the count? So there wouldn't be 3 no follow up. 4 MR. : SO there's no additional 5 -? There should have There's not another 6 line item that shouldn't be in there saying 7 that Reyes wasn't one of the individuals that 8 came back. 9 MR. : No because - because no. 10 MR. : So there's a pre-removed 11 but there's no line for removed. 12 MR. : No. Pre-removed means off the 13 count. He's out the building. Now if he comes 14 back -- 15 MR. : -- and you -? 16 MR. you just put him back in. 17 MR. : Okay. So that's the only 18 notification that should be made - should have 19 been made on the lieutenant's log? 20 MR. : Yeah. This one here? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : All right. And do you 24 mind just putting it like you did that last 25 one. Just a little star next to is.¶

¶

1 this is. 2 MR. : You don't know what account? 3 Okay. 4 MR. : Uh. It could have been some 5 type of -. 6 MR. : I was just trying to figure 7 out if they were still counting him as hey, 8 there's a possibility of him coming back. 9 They've left him as outcount. And eventually, 10 after evening they removed him from outcount. 11 MR. : No. So the outcount - oh I 12 know what you're saying now. You're traying to 13 say you mean who is the one that they have at 14 attorney conference. 15 MR. : See attorney conference we 16 know. That's -. 17 MR. : Yeah. That's the same thing. 18 MR. : That's the same thing? 19 MR. : Yeah. All the numbers is 20 repeats for the outcounts. 21 MR. : So you hear what he's 22 saying? 23 MR. : Yeah. Okay. 24 MR. : Ten, one, two. That 25 equals 13. One, one. Three plus one plus 13¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 plus two equals 19. 2 MR. : Got it. So at this point, 3 Reyes is completely off the count. 4 MR. : Yeah. 4:00. Yeah. He was 5 off at this time. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : But the thing is he could 8 come back. 9 MR. : Got it. 10 MR. : That's why I'm saying that 11 I know you're saying that hey, should he have. 12 I can't say that. 13 MR. : So you're not like upset 14 at the fact that like he didn't notify you and 15 then you could have notified the captain. You 16 don't think that that would have been what he 17 should have done? 18 MR. : I mean yeah, that's 19 definitely helpful. And it would have been 20 appreciated. But to say that you know he's in 21 the wrong for not doing it and stuff like that. 22 I can't say that. 23 MR. : Okay. And he didn't 24 notify you? 25 MR. : No. Not that I recall.¶

1	: Okay. MR. All right. So
2	we're going to move on from that. You can give
3	that back or you can hold onto it. Whatever
4	you want to do. Do you know about any cameras
5	in the MCC SHU that were not working on August
6	9th or 10th?
7	: No. MR. That they wasn't
8	working?
9	: Yeah-yeah-yeah. MR.
10	: No. MR.
11	: Have you - did you ever - MR.
12	were you made aware of that after August 9th?
13	Any cameras were not working?
14	: I heard something about when MR.
15	they was like checking videos and stuff.
16	MR. What did you hear about :
17	it?
18	: That some of them was showing MR.
19	grainy.
20	MR. And who would have been :
21	responsible for making sure the cameras were
22	working?
23	: Mm. MR. The facilities.
24	MR. Who from facilities :
25	should we speak with?

¶

¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238
1	: No communication like that. MR.
2	I don't know.
3	: Did you ever provide him MR.
4	with any kind of special instructions with
5	regard to Epstein?
6	: Not that I recall. MR.
7	: No? What about -? Did MR.
8	you ever communicate with regarding
9	rounds being conducted in the SHU or Epstein
10	needing a cellmate?
11	: Not that I recall. MR.
12	MR. Are you aware that :
13	allowed Epstein to make a telephone
14	call on the evening of August 9, 2019?
15	I think I heard MR. Mm.
16	I don't know was it something about that.
17	though.
18	MR. No? :
19	: I just heard something. MR. I
20	think he made a phone call though.
21	MR. All right. So do you :
22	involved with that know anything about
23	phone call?
24	: No. MR.
25	MR. All right. What is your :

1	understanding of the phone call that took place
2	on August 9th with Epstein's telephone call?
3	: It was a regular phone call. MR.
4	: Did you hear that it was MR.
5	made in the shower area?
6	: No. MR.
7	: Have you ever heard of MR.
8	telephone calls being made in the shower area?
9	: In the shower area? MR. Yeah.
10	MR. And what's the purpose of :
11	that?
12	: The cord can't reach. And MR.
13	I'll say we got him (Indiscernible *03:02:16)
14	hey I'm going to give you a phone right now
15	while I'm -0 while you're right there. I don't
16	have to pull you out and it's like a time
17	consuming method.
18	Do you know if the line MR. :
19	that they would be using in that area would be
20	recorded line or a legal line?
21	: It's two. There's two. MR.
22	Okay. So would there be MR. :
23	any reason to provide someone with a legal line
24	that's not recorded?
25	: No. MR.

¶

1 attorneys. And yeah, they do that. 2 MR. : Okay. And if they didn't 3 do that. 4 MR. : I don't know if it's a 5 violation. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : But it's not common. 8 MR. : Yeah. So let's say if 9 the captain even authorized it. Yeah, give him 10 his phone call. Just make sure you monitor it 11 and log it. 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : They didn't monitor it. 14 They didn't log it. Would that be a problem? 15 MR. : The captain telling me. 16 Yeah. 17 MR. : All right. Did you ever 18 hear of that practice taking place in the past? 19 MR. : Unmonitored calls? 20 MR. : Yeah. Or like letting 21 somebody in the SHU have a phone call on an 22 unmonitored line, walking away, letting that 23 person talk? 24 MR. : No. Now from an officer's 25 standpoint?¶

1	: Yeah. MR.
2	: No. MR.
3	: You never seen that MR.
4	Or heard about it? before?
5	: Officers. MR. No.
6	: Okay. MR. What is the policy
7	for inmates making a calls from the SHU?
8	Mm. I do know they could get MR.
9	- they got to come - there's a (Indiscernible
10	*03:04:12) in SHU that everyone has a line. A
11	And they get with compassionate phone line.
12	the chaplain they can make a phone call. Like
13	say that they might you only get one call every
14	So chaplain say hey, give this guy a 30 days.
15	They come up. They bring him. They let call.
16	him use the compassionate phone.
17	And when you say -. MR. :
18	: And that's about it. MR.
19	MR. What's a compassionate :
20	phone?
21	: Yeah. It's like something MR.
22	they have a death in the family or something
23	like that.
24	But is that a monitored MR. :
25	call?

	243 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1	: I don't think so. But I mean MR.
2	It's monitored staff would stay with him.
3	It's monitored. yeah.
4	: So anybody in the staff. MR.
5	It's either a monitored line or staff is with
6	them? Is that correct?
7	: If it's monitored in the SHU? MR.
8	: Yeah. MR.
9	: Yeah. MR.
10	MR. So when I say monitored, :
11	I mean it's either a recorded line -.
12	: Or you right there. MR.
13	MR. -- or you're right there. :
14	: Yeah. MR.
15	MR. And what are the reasons :
16	why you would give him an unrecorded line? Or
17	a non-recorded line?
18	: Mm. I mean probably like an MR.
19	emergency or something.
20	So for him -? MR. :
21	: Definitely yeah. MR. So like the
22	chaplain ain't the hey, you know, okay.
23	But if it was in the MR. :
24	shower area, they would actually have the
25	ability to do either a recorded line or a non

¶

¶

1	weren't doing that?
2	: Mm. MR.
3	: Or is this what you were MR.
4	saying before? An abnormal day?
5	: I mean I don't know. MR. I
6	wasn't aware that they wasn't doing it. No.
7	: Okay. Um and is there MR.
8	any responsibility of the ops or activities'
9	lieutenant overseeing to make sure that these
10	cell searches are being conducted?
11	: Yeah. MR.
12	MR. There is? :
13	: Yeah. MR.
14	And what is that MR. :
15	responsibility?
16	: I mean pretty much we check MR.
17	every 30 days. They've got to be done. Every
18	cell supposed to eb searched every 30 days. So
19
20	MR. Every cell in there is :
21	supposed to be searched every 30 days?
22	: The whole unit yeah. MR.
23	MR. And that's where Okay. :
24	the ops lieutenant and activities' lieutenant
25	come in?

¶

¶

¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 250
1	and that's not abnormal for them to have their
2	own pill bottles and things like that in the
3	SHU?
4	: No. MR.
5	: What can an inmate have MR.
6	in their cell in the SHU?
7	: T-shirt, boxes, washcloth, a MR.
8	towel, depending on what season too. Blankets,
9	two sheets.
10	MR. So they can have tow :
11	blankets and two sheets?
12	: Depending on the weather. MR.
13	MR. Okay. :
14	: And how much is available. MR.
15	MR. What about in August? :
16	How many blankets and sheets could have they
17	had?
18	: How many they could have? MR.
19	MR. Or are they allowed to :
20	have?
21	: Uh. MR. Some of It depends.
22	them -. It depends. It they say hey, let them
23	keep it, two and two, let them keep it.
24	MR. : Okay.
25	: I say hey, you need to - you MR.

1	know. They go down to one.
2	: Would it be ever MR.
3	authorized to have more than two of each?
4	: How many? MR. Like an extra
5	blanket or something?
6	: Yeah. Like if three MR.
7	blankets or four blankets.
8	: I don't know about four, but MR.
9	an extra blanket I heard that especially in the
10	wintertime depending on the cells.
11	MR. What about in August? :
12	: An extra blanket? MR.
13	MR. Or extra linens. :
14	: MR. Nah.
15	MR. Yeah. What about extra :
16	clothing?
17	: I mean it wouldn't be MR.
18	authorized but they could get it.
19	: How could they get it? MR.
20	: MR. They could get it. They
21	could fish it themselves - inmates.
22	You mean they can like MR. :
23	throw a cord over over like the -?
24	: Yeah. MR.
25	MR. They do that? :

¶

1 MR. : Books. Food. Yeah. 2 MR. : All right. Do you know 3 if Epstein was given any special privileges to 4 have extra clothing or extra linens? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : No? Do you know if he 7 had extra clothing or extra linens? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : Who was making sure that 10 Epstein had the correct amount of clothing and 11 linens? 12 MR. : Not sure. 13 MR. : Would it be like the SHU 14 staff or the lieutenant or all of the above? 15 The SHU lieutenant? 16 MR. : I'm not sure. 17 MR. : Working in the SHU 18 though, or previously, you don't know who would 19 -? 20 MR. : Who is mentoring it? I mean. 21 MR. : Like who would be - who's 22 responsible? Not let - sounds like - looks 23 like no one was monitoring it but who was 24 actually responsible to make sure him and these 25 guys aren't supposed to have that many - that¶

1 much clothing or linen. 2 MR. : I'm not sure. Because when 3 we used to do linen, you give me three, I give 4 you three. That's how we used to monitor it. 5 MR. : Yes. It's supposed to be 6 like a one-for-one exchange. 7 MR. : Yeah. So I don't know who's 8 responsible to keep an eye on his things 9 though. I uh 10 MR. : Typically who provides 11 inmates with their linens? 12 MR. : Staff. 13 MR. : Do lieutenants ever do 14 that? 15 MR. : No. Not really. 16 MR. : So it would be the staff 17 that's responsible then huh? 18 MR. : Yeah. That's why I say 19 (Indiscernible *03:12:15) responsibility I 20 guess then. 21 MR. : Okay. Does the SHU 22 lieutenant ever do it? 23 MR. : I mean, it could. I could if 24 I want to. 25 MR. : Yeah. But typically it¶

1	would be the SHU staff?
2	: Yeah. MR.
3	: Okay. MR. Any idea how
4	Epstein's interactions were with other inmates?
5	Did he ever have interactions with other
6	inmates really?
7	: I don't know. MR. I know when he
8	first got there, he told me some guy he was
9	nervous because his face was on the TV. And
10	guys might be trying to intimidate him. That's
11	about it though.
12	That was something he - MR. :
13	Epstein specifically told you?
14	: He told the officer and then MR.
15	the officer told me. He said, hey I didn't
16	know who he was. I was like alright. Let me
17	look into it. And then they moved him.
18	MR. Where was he? :
19	: He was on - his first unit MR.
20	think was 11 North.
21	MR. So was he then in general :
22	population?
23	: MR. When he first came here, he
24	was general population.
25	MR. All right. So people :

	256 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1	that tell us that he was in the SHU the entire
2	time are incorrect?
3	MR. When he first got through, he :
4	was in general population.
5	MR. And for how long was he :
6	in general population?
7	Say about a day or two. MR. :
8	MR. And are you the one that :
9	actually moved him into the SHU?
10	MR. No. :
11	MR. Who did that? :
12	MR. I don't know. :
13	All right. MR. But an :
14	officer reported it to you? And then you -?
15	Yeah. I know he was in MR. :
16	general population.
17	And what did you do with MR. :
18	the information when that was told?
19	MR. What? :
20	MR. You said an officer said :
21	he's worried about safety.
22	I spoke to him. MR. Yeah. :
23	MR. You spoke to Epstein? :
24	I wanted to know I said MR. :
25	what's going on. I said alright, we going to

1 look into this. And then they moved him. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : But I guess my question 5 was did you report that information to someone? 6 And then it was - a person? 7 MR. : I don't remember. I know I 8 passed it on. I said hey, this guy, I think 9 he's high profile. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Look into it I think by the 12 captain or someone got together and they moved 13 him. Put him in place in the SHU. 14 MR. : Okay. And when was the 15 last time you interacted with Epstein? 16 MR. : I can't recall. 17 MR. : Did you have any 18 interactions with him on August 9th? 19 MR. : I could have. I don't know. 20 He's right there on the floor. So I could 21 have. 22 MR. : But you don't know. So 23 again, dude dies the next day. You can't 24 remember if the day before you talked with this 25 guy when it's like the biggest case ever?¶

1	: MR. yeah.
2	: You don't remember? MR.
3	: Uh-huh. MR. `Cause I brung him
4	But I don't know if I up to SHU a few times.
5	did that day.
6	: I'm just saying that kind MR.
7	of sparks a little suspicion if --
8	: I know what you're saying. MR.
9	: -- it's like - if it's MR.
10	like you can't even remember the last - if you
11	talked to him on that day - the day before.
12	: I mean it's a big case. MR.
13	But I mean, you know, I have a job get that.
14	like you know?
15	Yeah-yeah. I mean, I'm MR. :
16	just saying that that's going to create a
17	little -.
18	: Yeah but I cannot remember if MR.
19	I spoke to that dude that day.
20	Do you remember when was MR. :
21	the last time you saw him?
22	: No. MR. I'm probably assuming
23	If he was in attorney conference. that day.
24	MR. And is that because Um. :
25	you would have visited attorney conference?

1	The elevator is right MR. Yeah. :
2	there. I'm on the third floor here. Attorney
3	conference is there. If I wait right here in
4	the elevator, I see him. He's in the same room
5	every day.
6	But you can't remember if MR. :
7	you actually spoke with him on that day?
8	MR. No. :
9	MR. Would you typically speak :
10	with him when he was in attorney conference?
11	MR. The only time I used to speak :
12	to him is if they say hey, you can bring this.
13	Hey, you going to SHU? Can you take him up?
14	All right. Come on.
15	MR. All right. :
16	MR. Can I ask a question on that? :
17	MR. Please do. Yes. :
18	Just in case, I mean I know : MR.
19	you said you don't remember, but that's his
20	last day. That's the last time you saw him.
21	Do you remember who he was with that day?
22	MR. His lawyers. :
23	MR. Do you remember his demeanor? :
24	MR. Mm. :
25	: MR. Was he upset? Was he

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 yelling? Did he complain about anything? 2 MR. : He used to sleep a lot. 3 That's all I know. Sometimes you see him in 4 there, he's just laying on the table. His 5 lawyer is right there. 6 MR. : While he's with his 7 attorneys? 8 MR. : He was there -. He used to 9 be there from 8 from in the morning time all 10 the way to day watch and evening watch. 11 MR. : Around what time would he 12 show up there? 13 MR. : Early. He'd be the first one 14 there. 15 MR. : And what time would that 16 be? 17 MR. : 8:00, 8:30. 18 MR. : And then what time would 19 he typically go back to the SHU? 20 MR. : Before - or attorney 21 conference over at 8:00. So about 8:00 22 MR. : So basically 8:00 a.m. to 23 8:00 p.m.? And who were the people that would 24 take him to attorney conference and then take 25 him back to the SHU?¶

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 1 MR. : I told you. Like I said, 2 I've done it sometimes. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : But typically, hey get the 5 guy ready in SHU. Bring him down. If R&D's 6 out there, hey we got to move him. You know. 7 I'll take him down. 8 MR. : Mm-hm. 9 MR. : Whoever's going that way. 10 MR. : Did you take him either 11 there to attorney conference or back to the SHU 12 on August 9th? 13 MR. : I don't think so. I can't 14 recall. 15 MR. : Were you still at the MCC 16 at around 8:00 p.m. on August 9th? 17 MR. : No. I wasn't there at 8:00. 18 MR. : And what time do you 19 believe that you left MCC on August 9th? 20 MR. : Uh between 2:00 and 4:00. 21 MR. : Sometime between 2:00 and 22 4:00. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : But you weren't back? So 25 he was in attorney conference all that time.¶

1 So the last time you possibly could have 2 interacted with him would have been around 8:00 3 a.m. Correct? 4 MR. : I mean interacting like 5 talking to him? 6 MR. : Speaking with him. 7 MR. : Yeah. But I don't think I 8 I can't recall if I spoke -. I don't think I 9 spoke to him. But -- 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 11 MR. : I'm not sure if I did or I 12 didn't. 13 MR. : Okay. But -. 14 MR. : The last time would have been 15 I mean -. Yeah. If I stepped into attorney 16 conference and said something. But 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : I don't recall that. 19 MR. : But you don't recall what 20 his demeanor was? Or state of mind? 21 MR. : That day? 22 MR. : Yeah. Um you just 23 mentioned the one thing where he was worried 24 because his - you know -. 25 MR. : Yeah. The first day he got¶

1 here. 2 MR. : He told an officer. 3 MR. : He's saying hey, uh officer, 4 hey there's this guy up here. His face is 5 well we get those calls all the time. 6 MR. : Do you know of any other 7 complaints that he made? Did he ever complain 8 to you or you get any other information about 9 it? 10 MR. : While he was planning on 11 getting off of suicide watch. That's about it. 12 MR. : Okay. And was he making 13 those complaints to you about getting off of 14 suicide watch? 15 MR. : He was just saying hey, why 16 you guys got me like -. I'm like well you talk 17 to psych and then they'll talk to you and they 18 spoke to him and he went back up. 19 MR. : And what was this 20 complaint about? About being -? 21 MR. : He was saying why he was on 22 there yeah. He wanted his clothes and you 23 know. 24 MR. : So he didn't want to be 25 on suicide watch?¶

¶

1 MR. : His suicide attempt. 2 Hotlist. 3 MR. : Do you ever put people 4 that are suicide attempts or hotlist in G Tier 5 or 10 South, so they have extra eyes on them? 6 MR. : Mm. I don't think. No one 7 in 10 South is on the hotlist. I don't recall. 8 MR. : What about G Tier? 9 What's their -? Who? What's the deal with G 10 Tier? Like who goes -- 11 MR. : Single cells. 12 MR. in there? 13 MR. : Single cells. 14 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. But they 15 have cameras in there, right? Every one of 16 them gets - just like 10 South - but -? 17 MR. : Yeah but uh 9 South some of 18 the - some cameras in some of those. Psych 19 cells. 20 MR. : Do you believe Epstein 21 should have been in a cell with a camera in it? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : No? 24 MR. : I mean yeah, if you have to 25 have two. The ones with the cameras is single¶

1	You can't go there. cell.
2	: Yeah-yeah-yeah. MR.
3	: You know? MR.
4	: So you believe he should MR.
5	have had a cellmate and he should have been in
6	the regular SHU? Because we've had other
7	people say should have been on G tier. Should
8	have been on 10 South. But you believe -.
9	: People are saying - I mean - MR.
10	if you try to commit - like you just showed me
11	So either he needs an extra the memo. Right?
12	set of eyes on him and then the - that's even
13	I'm going to put you in there by worse.
14	yourself? You saying? For an extended time?
15	: I guess but so people are MR.
16	saying because officers are watching those
17	people at all times. Is that -? Are they
18	watching them at all times?
19	: MR. How?
20	MR. On the cameras I don't :
21	know.
22	: No. MR.
23	MR. SO they're not actually :
24	being monitored?
25	: They can't watch. MR. No one can

1 watch someone all the time. No. 2 MR. : Okay. So you think that 3 it would have been just as risky or if not more 4 risky with him being in G Tier or 10 South? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. Do 7 you know why Epstein was in prison? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Why? 10 MR. : Uh underage trafficking. 11 Child molestation. Charges like that. 12 MR. : And did you have any 13 specific feelings regarding why he was in 14 prison? 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : How often would you speak 17 with Epstein? 18 MR. Uh whenever I needed to. 19 MR. : All right. Any kind of 20 conversation that had any substance to it? 21 Like a substantive conversation? Anything that 22 was like more than just like below? 23 MR. : Nah. 24 MR. : No? and you said you did 25 not work at all on August 20th?¶

¶

1	Everyone was talking about it.
2	MR. Yeah-yeah-yeah. So what :
3	was your understanding about how he died?
4	MR. He hung himself. :
5	MR. Do you know anything :
6	about anyone else taking his life?
7	MR. No. :
8	MR. No? Do you know anything :
9	about anyone assisting with taking his life?
10	MR. Nah. :
11	MR. No. Do you believe that :
12	Epstein took his own life?
13	MR. Yes. :
14	MR. Do you believe that :
15	Epstein acted alone in taking his own life?
16	MR. Yes. :
17	MR. All right. Then there's :
18	only three more questions here. They're more
19	open-ended. What do you believe would have
20	prevented Epstein from dying?
21	MR. Nothing. :
22	MR. Nothing? Do you think :
23	that if he was - wanted to take his life he
24	would have done it?
25	MR. If it was a regular inmate, I :

1 don't even think we would be - you know. 2 MR. : Um what are some of the 3 systematic problems inside the MCC? And 4 specifically the SHU that allowed for Epstein 5 to die? 6 MR. Mm. Systematic problems. 7 MR. : You know like -. 8 MR. : It sound like a union 9 question or something like that. 10 MR. : Well no it because like I 11 told you, we're trying to look into like. He 12 man, you're right. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : If another inmate died, 15 we're probably not going to be here talking to 16 you. But this is high-profile. We now need to 17 figure out what went wrong here. How do we fix 18 it? So in your opinion, what went wrong here? 19 MR. : I mean. 20 MR. : And how do we fix it? 21 We're from the government. We're here to help. 22 MR. : Yeah. My opinion, the whole 23 cellmate leaving. That's not on nobody. I'm 24 not. If I have the notice he had up until that 25 time and left for one day. Then this happens.¶

1 I can't blame lieutenant, staff, notifications. 2 You know. Remember there's like 900 inmates in 3 there. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : I know he's high-profile, but 6 we also have to monitor other inmates. The 7 round situation. If that's true. That could 8 have been a little bit you know You've got 9 to make rounds in SHU. 10 MR. : Counts too though, right? 11 MR. : You've got to make rounds and 12 counts. 13 MR. : Now going back to there. 14 You say it's not on anybody. But if he's - 15 psychology is saying he's required to have a 16 cellmate. It's got to be on somebody. Right? 17 If he's on the hotlist. He's in SHU where he's 18 supposed to have a cellmate anyway. And 19 psychology is saying he's got to have a 20 cellmate. It's got to fall to somebody to make 21 sure. Hey, who is supposed to make sure this 22 guy has got a cellmate? His cellmate is gone. 23 He doesn't have a cell mate. 24 MR. : Mm-hm. 25 MR. : Because -.¶

1 MR. : So if I know. If I get the 2 notice by 8:00. Right? So I'm evening watch 3 ops. I get the notice. Hey, this guy doesn't 4 have a cellmate. All right. What's my call? 5 I just throw him in there with anybody? 6 MR. : My thought - and from 7 talking to other people - are supposed to be 8 that SHU staff should have notified the ops 9 lieutenant or the activities' lieutenant. Who 10 then should have notified the captain? 11 MR. : Yeah. At 8:00. I could see 12 that. But at that time on day watch, hm-mm. 13 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 14 MR. : It's a judgment call. 15 MR. : And I'm not talking about 16 at 8:00 a.m. I'm saying like what you just 17 said -- 18 MR. : I want to say we can't 19 (Indiscernible *03:24:48) notice. 20 MR. : -- you don't think that 21 the cellmate thing should be on anybody. Well 22 but it's like it's got to be on somebody. If 23 he's required to have a cellmate, somebody's 24 got to make sure he's got a cellmate. 25 MR. : Yeah. Yeah but what if I¶

¶

1	: Yeah. MR.
2	: So that's evening watch. MR.
3	So we're looking at -. Where are we looking
4	at?
5	: So if I know - if I'm MR.
6	notified by 8:00. And I call the captain. Say
7	hey, this guy don't -. What's my next move
8	Or 0? then? Throw him in there with anybody?
9	: Yeah, so we have MR.
10	Noel, and
11	: Mm-hm. MR.
12	MR. So yeah, I guess-. :
13	: I mean I can see them saying MR.
14	- whoever said that. Because they say hey,
15	kick it up.
16	MR. Right. :
17	: Kick it up. Kick MR. You know.
18	Now if I'm on, what do you the blame up top.
19	Throw the guy in there with want me to do?
20	anybody? Just because he have to have a
21	cellmate?
22	MR. Well some people have :
23	said that at the very least they would have put
24	him on like a dry cell type of a situation
25	where you've got a staff member on him until he

1 can get placed with a cellmate. 2 MR. : Yeah. But that's a 3 questionable move too. 4 MR. : Um. 5 MR. : You want me to take him and 6 put him on - you know? 7 MR. : So you believe - so 1 8 guess. What is your belief then? 9 MR. : I mean there was a time and 10 opportunity. Guy wanted to take his life. The 11 inmate left. He saw the time and opportunity. 12 He did it. The officers - you know. 13 MR. : But don't -? 14 MR. : Uh yeah. 15 MR. : -- do you believe though 16 as a correctional officer it's the 17 responsibility to ensure that we ensure that 18 they don't die in our custody? 19 MR. : Well that's what the rounds 20 is for. That's why it's so important. 21 MR. : All right. So that's why 22 you think it's really the rounds and the count. 23 Not necessarily the cellmate but the rounds and 24 the counts. 25 MR. : Well in SHU, you required to¶

¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277
1	: Well in this case I think MR.
2	it was like 9 days. But yeah.
3	: Yeah. MR. But there's still no
4	Some guys say they suicidal just to timeframe.
5	get out of SHU and play the game. Go back in.
6	: Right. MR.
7	: But it's never saying hey MR.
8	this guy is not. There's no memo saying he
9	does need a cellmate.
10	MR. Would you agree though :
11	that it's both? The fact that the was require
12	to have a cellmate and they weren't conducting
13	rounds?
14	: Yeah. MR. Yeah.
15	And that's where - when I MR. :
16	talk about the problems.
17	: The thing is, that happened, MR.
18	but it's - that can happen. Hey oh. His
19	Bunkie left. I didn't put a cellmate. That
20	can happen.
21	MR. Right. :
22	: You know. MR. That can happen
23	here.
24	MR. Right. :
25	: MR. You get inmates that was

1	crying on level two. Hey, got to have a
2	cellmate. You moved him? Yeah. Oh you ain't
3	check? Oh you know.
4	: Yeah. MR. So I think what I
5	understand you saying is that the primary issue
6	is not doing rounds. Secondary and a much
7	lesser issue was that they didn't fill up his
8	Is that correct? cellmate.
9	: Yeah. MR.
10	MR. Okay. And are there any :
11	other problems or violations occurring inside
12	the MCC that we should be made aware of?
13	: Mm. MR.
14	MR. We're talking about the :
15	MCC.
16	: Violations? MR.
17	MR. Anything that we should :
18	have known about that you think needs to be
19	fixed.
20	: You got mandated. MR. I know
21	that. You're working.
22	So there's - is what MR. :
23	you're saying then that they're severely
24	understaffed?
25	: They was. MR. I don't know how

1	it is now. Buy they was.
2	: And again when did you MR.
3	leave there?
4	Uh December '19. MR.
5	: December of 2019? At MR.
6	that point they were still extremely over -?
7	: Extremely. MR.
8	: What about - was there MR.
9	anything that was being fixed ever since when
10	Epstein died and August of 2019. Did you see
11	anything being fixed by that point?
12	: Uh. MR. They did change the log.
13	I know that.
14	MR. What does that mean? :
15	: MR. They started putting inmates
16	that go to court. Just in case. We started
17	doing them and started attaching the PP38 to
18	the log.
19	So they would almost be MR. :
20	part of the outcount?
21	: No. You could see. MR. You
22	could see all the movement.
23	Okay. MR. :
24	: You know. MR. You could see all
25	the movement. They started single cell memos.

1 Every time I need to know- every night. 2 Because I worked the morning. Every night I 3 need the -. Hey whose up there - single cell? 4 That was an every night thing. We started that 5 um. More rounds. More reiteration of doing 6 your rounds. Um. I know the rounds. They got 7 tighter with the rounds. The log. Mm. It was 8 some things. There were some things. As far 9 as staff, I think they did hire a class like 10 right before. But um. You know. 11 MR. : Now has that just been a 12 constant problem with um with the MCC with 13 being able to like fill -? 14 MR. : I mean that's Yeah. 15 That's been a problem for a while. It wasn't 16 like that when I first got there though. 17 MR. : And what is - why do you 18 think it's so hard to keep that place staffed? 19 MR. : Well uh I think they can't 20 compete. It's the pay. They're not competing 21 with other agencies. It's a tough job. 22 Working there is tough. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : It's not easy. I'll tell you 25 that.¶

¶

1 your first year. Just going to put some work 2 in it. You've got people that want it. You 3 know. That wants the money. 4 MR. : You think that it means 5 they should have like a higher pay at the MCC? 6 And the MDC? 7 MR. : Higher pay or you look for 8 people that are looking for opportunity. You 9 know. 10 MR. : Like as in make it like a 11 rotating place? You have to do a certain 12 amount of time there and then you can go to 13 like your choice location afterwards? 14 MR. : I mean. 15 MR. : What do you mean by 16 opportunity? I guess I should say. 17 MR. : Like I don't know. I know 18 the - I think it's a (Indiscernible *03:32:28) 19 problem there. Or credit something like that. 20 Is it? I don't know. I'm not sure. 21 MR. : I have -. We've 22 definitely talked to people that don't have 23 bachelor's degrees. 24 MR. : Yeah. But I think they have 25 um credits. I think they change it for¶

1 credits. 2 MR. : Yeah. Some people have 3 said some college. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : That we've talked to that 6 they don't have -. 7 MR. : I think -. 8 MR. : I don't think I've talked 9 to anybody that said they didn't have any 10 college. But I mean I think it was like a 11 couple credits. You know. 12 MR. : Yeah. But I mean some people 13 without college, it's one opportunity to say 14 hey, you can make $60,000 your first year. I 15 just need you to show up and work. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Follow the rules. You know. 18 And the credit check I think was getting a lot 19 of people. 20 MR. : Is that right? 21 MR. : Yeah. Credit checks. I 22 think that's what weeds out a lot of people. 23 MR. : Now do you believe though 24 - on that note - if we're not doing credit 25 checks, we're letting that slide. Wouldn't¶

1	that breed a potential problem with
2	introduction of contraband and being paid you
3	know for brining things in?
4	: Bribery and stuff? MR.
5	: Yeah. MR. Because that's a
6	big problem in the BOP.
7	: Yeah. But I think that's -. MR.
8	I mean you've got some people in there I mean.
9	That don't work. That don't. no. you could
10	I seen people get arrested with good be.
11	credit.
12	MR. Right. :
13	: Six figures - making six MR.
14	figures and do some corrupt stuff.
15	MR. Right-right. :
16	: So. That's not it. MR.
17	Okay. MR. :
18	: I'm not saying take everyone. MR.
19	But you know.
20	MR. Yeah. :
21	: It's like if you renting to MR.
22	And you say somebody and you a landlord.
23	alright, I know you ain't got the top score,
24	but I see you pay your bills on time. You had
25	a little student loan debt here or whatever.

1	I'll give you a shot.
2	: Yeah. MR.
3	: You know. MR.
4	: What have you got? MR.
5	: You mentioned that you saw MR.
6	Epstein in the conference room.
7	: Attorney conference. MR. Yeah.
8	: And sometimes he was MR.
9	sleeping.
10	: It looked like he was MR.
11	sleeping. He would lay down on the table like
12	that.
13	: Is that normal for inmates to MR.
14	be sleep in the conference room?
15	: To sleep? MR. No. that's not
16	normal. Most guys is trying to get out. Saying
17	hey, you need to do this and do that.
18	: Did anyone ever tell him to MR.
19	wake up or address it?
20	: I don't think so. MR.
21	: The reason I ask is like was MR.
22	that a privilege that was allowed to Epstein?
23	To do that?
24	: No. It wasn't a privilege. MR.
25	I think the being that he was there from early

1 in the morning to whatever time. The lawyers 2 probably like alright, let's look over this. 3 And he probably laying, and I'll wait until 4 y'all finished. And then alright, let's go. 5 But he also gets to buy out the vending machine 6 too. At first. 7 MR. : The vending machine? 8 MR. : Yeah. He used to get all his 9 snacks. 10 MR. : Yeah. Because you weren't 11 allowed to give him food in there right? 12 MR. : In the SHU? You got food. 13 MR. : Not in SHU. 14 MR. : In attorney -. 15 MR. : Attorney conference. I 16 was told that he basically had to get his own 17 food from the vending machines. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Was he allowed -? Would 20 people feed him - the BOP food - when he was in 21 attorney conference? Would they bring him a 22 tray? 23 MR. : Mm. No. I don't think so. 24 I don't even think he even at that. I'm not 25 sure. I don't even know if he even ate the BOP¶

1	food. He probably just ate commissary.
2	: Oh so there's a MR.
3	commissary he could go to?
4	: Sure. You could go to MR.
5	commissary in SHU.
6	: No. MR. I'm talking about
7	because 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. he was always
8	with attorney conference.
9	: Yeah. MR. So he used to get
10	drinks and chips - snack food.
11	MR. And that's what he would :
12	just eat all day?
13	: I don't know about all day. MR.
14	But I know you know he'll have a - hey, make
15	sure when the lawyers come, they get his sodas
16	and drinks and they get us his chips.
17	MR. Hm. :
18	: MR. Yeah.
19	: Do you know anything MR.
20	about would he eat before he would go and then
21	be afforded a tray as soon as he got back to
22	SHU?
23	I mean yeah . but that MR. Uh.
24	That wouldn't be kind of wouldn't be -.
25	common. That's what any legal visit that we

1 used to do. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I'm just 3 saying if he's 7 days a week not eating - only 4 eating a bag of chips or something from 8:00 5 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., that seems like he'd get a 6 little more hungry than that. 7 MR. : Yeah. I don't know. I don't 8 know - I don't recall him getting a tray in 9 there though. 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No. 11 MR. : Yeah. I don't know. 12 MR. : I don't know if he was or 13 not. That's why I was asking. 14 MR. : Yeah. But if he comes back 15 from there and they said hey that's my tray 16 from earlier and if he was in legal visit, we 17 would give it to him. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : I mean that's common 20 practice. 21 MR. : Let's say - once Reyes left 22 that morning. 23 MR. : Who? 24 MR. : Reyes. 25 MR. : Okay.¶

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289
1	: Once he left that morning, I MR.
2	know there's like a sheet that keeps track of
3	all the inmates in the SHU. Right? They have
4	like a bed count sheet.
5	: Bed book count. MR.
6	: Bed book count. MR. Would that
7	book need to be updated?
8	: That he left? MR. Yeah.
9	: MR. Whose responsibility would
10	that have been?
11	: I don't know officers. MR. Uh.
12	: So officers should have MR.
13	updated it. Now let's say they went in 4:00
14	And then 9:00 p.m. count - god p.m. count.
15	forbid there was something off with the count.
16	They would have to pull out eh bed book and
17	verify it. Right?
18	: If you get two bad counts. MR.
19	: Two bad counts. MR.
20	: Yeah. MR.
21	: But if no one updated the MR.
22	book, would that be an issue?
23	: Well if you get two bad MR.
24	counts, you've got to a bed book. And then
25	But then again, you you'll find discrepancy.

1	know who usually updates the bed book count?
2	: The lieutenant? MR.
3	: Morning watch. MR. Because I'm
4	now - this is the new day - 12:01.
5	: Okay. MR.
6	: This person's not here. MR. Now
7	I know for a fact that this is what I'm
8	starting my day with - for the whole day.
9	: I was going to show one - the MR.
10	same document. You mentioned that when you
11	were working the SHU around 2:00 a.m. you would
12	have got the court document. The Right?
13	attorney would have brought it up. Or someone
14	would have brought up the document.
15	: Yeah. MR. It comes up on morning
16	watch.
17	: If - I mean and we don't know MR.
18	for sure if that was the same happening. Who
19	would have got that notification at 2:00 a.m.
20	on August 9th?
21	: About the paperwork? MR.
22	: About the court documents. MR.
23	: MR. Uh probably internal.
24	: No who in the SHU. MR. Who was
25	in the SHU at that point? Who would have

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291
1	Hey, listen Reyes is meeting gotten notified?
2	me in the morning.
3	: Uh. MR. and Thomas.
4	MR. -: Thomas?
5	: Yeah. MR.
6	: And let's say the morning MR.
7	The shift changes and -. Who came around.
8	would have notified um - they got the document?
9	They - Reyes is leaving.
10	: Mm-hm. MR.
11	: Who would have notified MR.
12	control or kept track of the fact that Reyes is
13	walking out of there?
14	: And again I told you, see if MR.
15	you don't - it's not a thought. It's not
16	coming on my radar until -.
17	: No. MR. I'm not saying that.
18	But who in the SHU would have been responsible?
19	: Someone in the SHU like I MR.
20	said evening watch around 8:00. If they're
21	saying hey, R&D they weren't back? Make sure
22	our count is right. But um. Yeah.
23	: That's it. MR. I just had to
24	clarify that. Thank you.
25	MR. : But just because Thomas

1	got that sheet, it doesn't mean and
2	that they would have done anything at that
3	time, right? Wouldn't it have been the next
4	shift to get -? Who would have gotten him
5	ready to do at 8:30?
6	: Well depending on what time. MR.
7	I mean they could do it at 6:00.
8	: They being? MR.
9	: Hey, whoever comes in at MR.
10	Hey, he got court. 6:00.
11	MR. All right. So they would :
12	have been the guys that probably getting
13	everybody ready to go to court?
14	: Yeah. MR.
15	MR. At least giving Okay. :
16	them notice.
17	: Who was on shift to get Reyes MR.
18	If he left around 8:00. ready?
19	: Uh MR.
20	Monge.
21	MR. was though? •
22	MR. was there at 6:00
23	yeah.
24	: Okay. MR.
25	: MR. He was SHU 3.

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 293
1	: Okay. MR. At 6:00 a.m.?
2	I see - wait. So I see MR. Yep.
3	he notified his relief is what he's saying.
4	was his relief at 2:00. Right?
5	: Yeah. MR. According to that
6	memo.
7	: Yeah. MR. I mean yeah. It's one
8	of those situations.
9	: That's all I got. MR.
10	MR. Cool. Anything Okay. :
11	you got (Indiscernible *03:40:03). We had a
12	really long interview here. So I apologize for
13	But we do appreciate you bearing with that.
14	It is 4:46 p.m. on Monday, us. All right.
15	July 12, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent
16	and I am turning off the
17	recorder.
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1	CERTIFICATE
2	I hereby certify that the foregoing pages
3	represent an accurate transcript of the
4	electronic sound recording of the proceedings
5	before the Department of Justice, Office of the
6	Inspector General in the matter of:
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8	Interview of
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13	Marci Bratton, Transcriber
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