Dr. Kliman: He says why haven't you had sex? And...did you name your boyfriend?¶
00:18:03¶
[REDACTED] ...Yeah.¶
Dr. Kliman: And what was your boyfriends name at that time?¶
[REDACTED] I was just like casually dating this guy Chris.¶
Dr. Kliman: And so there's some sort of calendar that we can now establish. That you were a virgin then until you were senior in high school; and these questions came while you were a virgin? And now this is the second time and he's asking to see your bra, did you show him your bra?¶
[REDACTED] Well I felt like really uncomfortable and then he said like; he asked me if like Hallie told me like how things go something like that. And I'm like no...and then he was like; [REDACTED] he's like...well he's like do you think you can take your shirt off; then kinda asked me about it again and I just remember...like taking me shirt off and like giving him a massage in my bra and...¶
00:19:22¶
Dr. Kliman: Do you remember taking your shirt off?¶
[REDACTED] The second time yeah.¶
Dr. Kliman: The second visit? And how did that go for you?¶
[REDACTED] It was just...I don't know...I just felt like wrong and like I knew I shouldn't...like do that but I kind of...I mean he kinda made it seem like it was okay; and...¶
Dr. Kliman: How did he do that?¶
[REDACTED] Just kinda like made it so that it wasn't like a big deal; and he knew I was like uncomfortable so he would like ask me other questions about like school; and work and then I remember...I told him that like I wanted to like get...to travel and stuff; like cause he asked me what I wanted to do when I got out of high school; and I said I wanted to travel and stuff and he would just talk about how his friends like who own boats and stuff like that and like maybe he could get me a job like on a boat, would be able to travel just talk about things like that; just to make me not as uncomfortable.¶
00:21:03¶
"D"¶
Dr. Kliman: So it seemed that he changed the subject when you were uncomfortable; okay now the second time you give him a massage with your shirt off but you had abra on, do you remember what you wore the second time besides the shirt and the bra?¶
Dr. Kliman: You're not sure?¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay now at his point do you have an idea about what time in the school year it was or what season; the second time?¶
Ol e Idon't really remember...I'm guessing it was like towards the end...¶
Dr. Kliman: Try not to guess, okay?¶
Dr. Kliman: You can give me an estimate if you want to.¶
Dr. Kliman: year? Is there areason that you think it was towards the end of your sophomore¶
00:22:23¶
Dr. Kliman: And the second time you went; how long was it after the first time?¶
Dr. Kliman: Would you say it was as long as half a year or shorter or longer?¶
Dr. Kliman: How did it come about that you came there this second time?¶
e Well Hallie asked me if I wanted to...like me to do a massage; and I...you know, I said I would so...¶
00:23:28¶
Iusually just wore like skirts or shorts.¶
Iwas pretty sure I was wearing askirt but I'm not like positive.¶
Okay...¶
Yeah I would estimate that it was like towards the end of my sophomore year of high school.¶
Well...I wasn't really friends with Hallie like in the beginning so 1 remember like we made up like half way through the year....so I'm guessing it was like towards the middle or the end.¶
I don't remember?¶
It was shorter...maybe like a couple of weeks.¶
Dr. Kliman: Well she had asked you that in the gym?¶
Dr. Kliman: And the first time you went you didn't do a massage? The second time you went; did she ask you again if you could do a massage?¶
S Uh huh.¶
Dr. Kliman: Alright now...how long did you stay the second time?¶
S Around the same time like 20 minutes or so...20 minutes I guess.¶
Dr. Kliman: Alright, was there athird time?¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay you don't remember the sequence but; about how many times did you visit Mr. Epstein?¶
Dr. Kliman: Give me an estimate.¶
Dr. Kliman: 8 times and when was the last time?¶
a My senior year; or actually it was...actually around the end...around the end of my junior year.¶
00:25:03¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay... of all the times you went; total being about 8. Is there atime that you remember was in any way upsetting to you at the time?¶
Uh huh.¶
It's hard for me to remember like ...I remember like the first like... first and second time really. Yeah there was athird time but I don't remember exactly like what I did, what times.¶
Not exactly sure how many times.¶
Maybe like 8 times.¶
Yeah.../ mean the more that I did go; the more he would try to get me to do and...I remember one time that he was kinds like aggressive and like kinda made me feel like I wasn't doing what like he wanted; and I remember he kinds like grab me try to like feel like parts of me...like I didn't want him to and I remember that...that was like one of the last times I went because it was really like...and he just asked me to do things; Iwould never do...just...I don't know it just made me really uncomfortable. I just...felt like ashamed that was; I remember that was one of the last times I went back.¶
Dr. Kliman: So there's a feeling of shame? You felt ashamed? You weren't asking him but you were ashamed?¶
S [nodding her head]¶
Dr. Kliman: What were you ashamed about?¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay now...this is a complicated set of experiences you went through and you're as I understand it you're about 16 at this time?¶
S Uh huh.¶
Dr. Kliman: How old were you when you graduated?¶
Dr. Kliman: Let's see I've forgotten your birthday. What is your birth date?¶
00:28:08¶
Dr. Kliman: So when you graduated had you turn 17 recently or the year before?¶
IIIla When I graduated I was...I was yeah 17; and then... yeah cause I had turn 18 right after I graduated that June, so 17...¶
Dr. Kliman: So you graduated in May or June?¶
Ilia May.¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay and so...you were still 17 when you graduated and you...were 17 when you started your senior year, is that right?¶
S Yes.¶
Dr. Kliman: And you were 16 when you started your junior year?¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay and how old were you when you first went to that house?¶
I mean I just kinds realized kinda like, you know what he was doing...and just... I was just like ashamed that I would even like be submissive to somebody like... I don't know you just...that I would even like take off my shirt like just like give, I don't know...a guy that much pleasure of like seeing me; and I don't know...¶
I was 17.¶
June 30'h.¶
Uh huh.¶
S I'm guessing I was...I5.¶
Dr. Kliman: 15.¶
Dr. Kliman: You weren't driving yet, you don't think?¶
S I mean not by myself...¶
Dr. Kliman: I mean your own car?¶
S No1 wasn't....1 don't think I was driving by myself... [Not audible].¶
Dr. Kliman: At any [not audible] you went as a sophomore first?¶
V IM Yeah...¶
Dr. Kliman: And then you went back as a sophomore still; second time and then he asked for your shirt to come off. Now...when he was grabbing parts of you that you didn't want him to grab; did that start in the second time or did it start later?¶
Dr. Kaman: What's that?¶
00:30:43¶
16... yeah.¶
It start...well the second time he kinda... just kinda grabbed...grabbed like my butt. He like....he like did his thing under the towel and then...¶
It's like; I don't know...it's like hard for me to talk about...¶
Dr. Kliman: Did he masturbate under the towel? Under the second time you were there?¶
S [nodding her head]¶
Dr. Kliman: And that's distressing to you; to you mention now?¶
Dr. Kliman: Now...okay so you're 16; and maybe 15. I'm not completely...¶
Dr. Kliman: Caught up in my arithmetic here; but you're a sophomore...¶
[nodding her head]¶
Yeah.¶
Dr. Kliman: It's hard for me to be sure...if you drove yourself it seems to me you would be 16; if you drove yourself the second time.¶
S Yeah I don't really remember that, not really.¶
Dr. Kliman: But you do remember you were in the gym and it was your sophomore year? When you met Hallie; and you went not long after that.¶
S Uh huh.¶
Dr. Kliman: So that sounds like you were still 15.¶
Dr. Kliman: You would know better than I.¶
S Yeah...end of my sophomore year; yeah I guess I would have been 15.¶
Dr. Kliman: Now had you ever seen a boy or a man masturbate?¶
00:32:28¶
Dr. Kliman: What did you see that second time?¶
S I couldn't really see anything; I wasn't like really watching; just kinda like looking the opposite way and...¶
Dr. Kliman: You were looking away?¶
Dr. Kliman: Why did you look away?¶
Dr. Kliman: You didn't want to see?¶
MO Like I didn't really know, he had a towel over him...¶
Dr. Kliman: But you could see there was a lot of movement; and you understood something about what was happening, I mean....I know you understand more now; but at the time did you understand something of what was happening?¶
Uh huh. Yeah...¶
Yeah I think I might have been 15. So...yeah.¶
[shaking her head]¶
Yes.¶
I just...I just felt uncomfortable.¶
Yeah alittle bit.¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay...now at this point when he's doing this under the towel; you have your shirt off and he grabbed your butt at some point. In what way did he grab your butt?¶
es He kinda like reached behind and kinda like feeling it and just like grabbing it; and I was just looking away and he like did it the whole time like and he was like...¶
Dr. Kliman: He was masturbating?¶
••1 [nodding her head]¶
Dr. Kliman: Ijust want to be sure...¶
Dr. Kliman: That I'm not confused about this. He masturbated the whole time that he was grabbed your butt and you were looking away?¶
00:34:24¶
Dr. Kliman: And this entire event of the second time was about 20 minutes?¶
Dr. Kliman: How much did he pay you for the second visit?¶
Dr. Kliman: And he didn't say that he was gonna pay you more if you did more?¶
Dr. Kliman: And did he express anything about you or your body or how he felt?¶
e He just...I remember him just like always like complimenting on my body; saying that I have like a really nice body; and that I was like skinny and I was like pretty. I mean he used always say really nice things...¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay... now did there come atime when something different happened?¶
Okay.¶
[nodding her head]¶
[nodding her head]¶
The same¶
No.¶
Yeah as I kept going there...he would just get more and more...like he would talk more like; asked me more like sexual questions just he would like...I remember like last time; that's when he really tried to do something and that's when I stop going but...¶
Dr. Kliman: What did he try to do?¶
want him to. He just like tried grabbing me and...and just like in places that's I didn't¶
00:36:08¶
Dr. Kliman: You know, how old are you, 21?¶
Uh huh.¶
Dr. Kliman: I think you know...you could use adult words, you know; you were a teenager then but...¶
S Yeah....¶
Dr. Kliman: It's important to use adult words now where he tried to grab you.¶
00:36:25¶
110 1 Sorry...it's like hard for me to talk about.¶
Dr. Kliman: Ireally don't think this is easy...I filly understand that this was avery complex and stressful experience and that's why I need to understand what you went through so that I can explain it to myself and maybe to your attorney, okay? So..-he really tried to do something the last time?¶
Dr. Kliman: How did he know that he knew you were uncomfortable?¶
Dr. Kliman: Now at this point he tried to pull off your underwear; now when he tried to pull off your underwear had you already removed your outer garments or had he remove it? How did it happen that you were in your underwear?¶
Yeah I remember him like trying to like pull of my underwear and...and just like grab my vagina and he tried to like pull down my bra and...and like he knew that I was uncomfortable and just like did it anyways; and....¶
Because he kept asking me and I kept saying no, and then...I just like...I knew he knew and it was just...he like kept pushing it and that was like the last time I went.¶
Iremember like one of the last times 1 went...like I finally like took off my skirt or whatever...and then he...and then that's when he...I took it off.¶
compliments on me and stuff. He would ask.... like I'm so pretty; like I have a nice body why am I not having sex?¶
Dr. Kliman: si* And in fact you did have sex after you met Mr. Epstein? Now...had you ever considered that there might be some connection between his influence and your life?¶
00:51:55¶
Dr. Kliman: Because of him? Well... What would it be if you didn't have his influence?¶
Dr. Kliman: So that's a difficulty that you sort of blame him for.¶
Dr. Kliman: Okay...now you blame him for your feeling ashamed and your feeling guilty at least you blame these experiences and it...I noticed that you think in one of your test here you mentioned that other women are too judgmental. How about yourself, do you find yourself passing judgment on yourself?¶
Dr. Kliman: Yeah? Tell me about that?¶
a¶
Dr. Kliman: So it's a permanent lack of forgiveness?¶
Maybe, like when I think of sex I think it as more as a not...just thing guys just want kinds thing. I don't really think of it as like love I think of it as more that's its just like something that, I don't know...like I have a different outlook on it, I think because of him.¶
I mean I'm not sure; but I think I would have a better perspective of sex and like...maybe you know, be more like open more kind of...think of more as like love than things like that, I don't know maybe...¶
Yeah.¶
[nodding]¶
I just have like a difficult time; like accepting what I did; like I blame him and I blame myself too and I mean a lot of it was just, you know...like my friends were like going. When I moved down there I didn't have like many friends; I didn't know that many people So think maybe one of the reasons why, you know... my friends were going; I mean...but still like it just like bothers me that I would do that. It just like really something I don't know, I don't think I would be able to forgive myself for it, so...¶
I mean at the time I didn't really like think; [not audible] not that I understand it its...and just like lately I've been thinking about it a lot and because of all the things that came out in the news; and my parents finding out and that was like real difficult for me; its just been like always on my¶