DIGITALLY RECORDED¶
SWORN STATEMENT¶
OF¶
TOVA NOEL¶
OIG CASE #:¶
2019-010614¶
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE¶
OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL¶
JUNE 21, 2021¶
RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES¶
Agoura Hills, CA 91301¶
Phone:¶
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APPEARANCES:¶
OTHER APPEARANCES:¶
JASON FOY, ESQ.¶
ERIC SARRAGA, ESQ.¶
SERINE GREG¶
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MR. FOY: Jason Foy, F-O-Y, attorney for Tova Noel.¶
MR. SARRAGA: Eric Sarraga, S-A-R-R-A-G-A, attorney for Tova Noel.¶
MS. GREGG: Serine Gregg, G-R-E-G-G, Local 3148.¶
MR. : Thank you everyone. Ms. Noel, you are here today as a subject in this DOJ OIG investigation. This DOJ OIG investigation concerns your alleged misconduct to include allegations of false statements, job performance failure, security failure, and reporting false information. This is an official DOJ OIG investigation and you are¶
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being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG?¶
MS. NOEL: Yes.¶
MR. Alright. Great. And then everyone that does voluntary interviews with the DOJ we provide them with these voluntary interview forms. I don’t know if you guys were sent that at the time, but it says, “United States Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 as amended. This investigation pertains to your alleged misconduct to include allegations of false statements, job performance failure, security failure, and reporting false information. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer¶
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questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceeding or agency disciplinary proceedings or both. And of course, there’s the DPA waiver. I understand the warnings and assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement or answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me. You can take a look at this and review it. If you agree, there’s a section there for your name and signature.¶
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MR. FOY: So the only thing that this is actually subject to is the deferred prosecution agreement.¶
MR. : Well so there’s the agreement that you had, so that’s the part where I’m talking about the specific part where it says criminal.¶
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MS. : It acknowledges the right to have me representing her. And part of those rights are the ability to assist in representing her. Right? And so I don’t want to dispute and I don’t want to hold up the process at all. I just want to say something to her.¶
MR. : Sure. let that - do that this time, but if this continues to happen, I’m going to have to give you a different form that says you can stay here voluntarily if you want, but we’re going to ask you not to interrupt the interview. And if you do, then we’re going to ask her if she wants to continue with the interview without you.¶
MS. : So but that form says¶
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MS. NOEL: It varies because I’m new and because I don’t know how to run the SHU. I just always rely on the senior person that I’m working with. So even if the roster reflects that I’m the senior officer, because sometimes I’m assigned SHU I, I don’t do what SHU I is supposed to do because I don’t know how to do¶
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it. I rely on the senior officer that I’m working with.¶
MR. : Okay. So you didn’t really know what your duties and responsibilities were? Is that what you’re saying?¶
MS. NOEL: In the SHU like um, to give out food, to collect the trays, to give out linen, collect linen. Whenever we would go down range to give out those, we count that as a round to make sure the inmates are good. You shower I think every other day. Count, that’s it.¶
MR. : So rounds and counts are a part of that though?¶
MS. NOEL: Rounds and counts are a part of it. But I’ve never worked in the SHU and actually done rounds every 30 minutes. We go down range to do stuff and we count it as a round.¶
MR. : And ask you things like who told you that and houses that, you know who¶
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classifications of an inmate? They never discussed that with you?¶
MR. : No? Okay. Did you ever see training on medical emergencies? With inmates?¶
MS. NOEL: Mm. No. I just know like if you are making a round and something happens to an inmate, you call and you wait for somebody to come before you enter the cell. That’s all I know.¶
MR. : Okay. But did you - were you provided like CPR training or any kind of like you know, if something were to happen in front of you how you would respond?¶
MS. NOEL: Yes. We also need bare training. (Phonetic Sp. *00:35:08)¶
MR. : Okay. And when would you conduct training like that CPR training or you know if someone is trying to kill themselves or something like that. When did you receive that training? How you would respond to a medical emergency?¶
MS. NOEL: That was in IF.¶
MR. : IF as well?¶
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MS. NOEL: No. I actually thought that the hotlist was something else. Like that was on the computer. No. I don’t know that.¶
MR. : Okay. And then it talks about when someone is on the hotlist, it’s supposed to be a special notation on the hotlist, a special notation on the cell door, and there’s also a special notation on the SHU board.¶
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he had cellmates. You just didn’t know if one of them was removed that he should be reassigned one?¶
MS. NOEL: Exactly. Mm-hmm.¶
MR. : Okay. Do you know who was responsible for assigning Epstein a new cellmate?¶
MS. NOEL: I don’t know.¶
MR. : No. Could SHU staff have assigned Epstein a new cellmate? Would you have the authority being - working in the SHU - if you knew someone was supposed to have a cellmate? Do you have the authority to place another inmate with that person?¶
MS. NOEL: See I don’t know. Because I’m that new.¶
MS. NOEL: So like I said, I rely on the senior person a lot. So I don’t know. like that would be a question I would ask them. So I don’t know.¶
MR. : When you were - during your time in the SHU, which you said I guess was from you know late June through August 9th or 10th. Did you ever see that happen before?¶
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SHU staff assign inmates with other inmates?¶
MS. NOEL: When an inmate comes, they place them with another inmate.¶
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visited him when he was with his attorneys?¶
MS. NOEL: I don’t know.¶
MR. : You don’t know. So did anyone - so psychologist, peers, supervisors, or anyone else - ever tell you that Epstein was required to have a cellmate?¶
MS. NOEL: Nobody.¶
MR. : Nobody. Did you ever receive any emails? So any type or form of communication? So not just verbal. Emails and writing, text messages - anything?¶
MS. NOEL: No.¶
MR. : No? Do you have that email? This isn’t an email that was sent to you. I just want to see if you - if someone ever forwarded this to you. Did anyone ever forward you -? This is -. First of all, this is an email from . It says suicide watch / psychological observation update. It’s what was sent on July 20, 2019. It says inmate Epstein is being taken off psychological observation and needs to be housed with an appropriate cellmate. Did anyone ever forward this information to you? Being that you worked in the SHU where he was¶
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like that fire extinguisher over there? Or is it further?¶
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where did he call you from in order to say get the phone from him?¶
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MS. NOEL: But people move all the time.¶
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When you’re in SHU, like let’s say if you did something and you’re in trouble. So you’re in the SHU. You could be sent back to your regular unit. So it wouldn’t be odd like if I was counting and the person wasn’t there. It would just be lesser the count. But it wouldn’t be odd if the physical person wasn’t there to me. Because people move back all the time.¶
MR. : But wouldn’t they have to advise you if you knew that there was only one person without - you know, one person that doesn’t have a cellmate. Wouldn’t they have to advise you? Hey, this person left, so this persons’ in there by himself.¶
MS. NOEL: I don’t know. Because nobody said anything to me.¶
MR. : So I’m not -. I’m just saying in general now. So like if you’re conducting your rounds and your counts, in order for you to know who you’re supposed to be counting and what -. During both rounds and counts, you know, who are you supposed to be checking on. Wouldn’t you need to know if a cellmate was removed and now there’s only one¶
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inmate in the cell?¶
MS. NOEL: No. like if I’m counting and the person is not there. Like say the count was 66. And I counted 65, that’s just what count.¶
MS. NOEL: So let’s say like if there was 66 people in there. And one person moved to wherever. They would have already did that. So it wouldn’t be for me to do. When I count¶
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come on shift, right. You’re responsible. I’m not saying this is the case. But you’re responsible to know how many inmates are in the SHU at that time. Right?¶
MS. NOEL: When I come on shift, I just come on and relive the person and just -. Like when I come on at 4:00, it’s time to feed. So I’m doing trays and I’m feeding. I’m not looking to see who’s on the roster or -. You would probably wait for count time to count and then count to see how much people is in there. But I’m not looking to see okay the roster says 75 and I’m counting to make sure there’s 75 people. Only at count time.¶
MR. : So when you’re doing your rounds, all you’re doing is the people that you see, are they okay. If someone escaped, you wouldn’t know that until count time?¶
MR. : Okay. And that’s basically - that answers it. So she’s saying that she’s not even worried about if someone is not there. She’s only worried about the people that are there. Is that correct?¶
MS. NOEL: Yes. Yes.¶
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additional information. Begin making 30 -. So according to this, it says when you’re report to duty, you’re supposed to talk to the operations lieutenant and receive whatever information you’re supposed to on your shift.¶
It says, “Begin making 30-minute rounds ensuring you document the findings into True Scope (Phonetic Sp. *01:42:49). Staff will observe all inmates in continued lockdown status once in the first 30-minute period of the hour. Example, 12:00 to 12:30 a.m.¶
Followed by another round in the second 30-minute period of the same hour 12:30 to 1:00 a.m. This will ensure an inmate is observed at least twice per hour. These rounds are to be conducted on an irregular schedule and no more than 40 minutes apart. All observations must be documented. It should be clearly understood that none of these activities are to take place until the evening watch officer is relieved.¶
It should be noted that it is understood that not all of the above will be accomplished by or before the count.” Then it talks about official count time. The SHU number two officer you said you were working, is that for¶
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both your shifts? Because this is specifically talking about 12:00 a.m. What were you at 12:00 a.m. on August 10th?¶
MS. NOEL: I think I was number one. Yes.¶
MR. : Alright. So this actually is pertaining to your shift during 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. So -.¶
(Indiscernible *01:43:58) so we’re SHU number one. So I guess what you were supposed to do per post orders was when you get on board, you’re supposed to call the operations lieutenant. And then you’re supposed to say hey, is there any information I need to know. And then you’re supposed to start making your counts. And that would be like where you would find out Epstein doesn’t have a cellmate. Make sure that when you’re doing your rounds, you know there’s nobody in there. You know I would think. Is that - was that your understanding¶
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where he said get the phone from Epstein his time is up.¶
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MS. NOEL: Um. When they had them the phone in the cell and they use that PIN - the number - to make the phone call. How often, I don’t know. Because that’s usually done before I come in. But I know showers are every other day. I don’t know if phones is every other day also.¶
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MS. NOEL: Yes. But it was before that. It was (Indiscernible *02:00:18).¶
MR. : But I do believe he arrived at 5:30. So this would have been probably you said - you said there were two different lieutenants you spoke to. So I’m assuming one -¶
MS. NOEL: No I spoke to Lieutenant asking did he say for me to relive Thomas to get the food. So he said he doesn’t know. Maybe Lieutenant told him. But I¶
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9th from the SHU. Epstein is required to have a cellmate. What should have happened?¶
MS. NOEL: I don’t know what should have happened because when I came in at 4:00, the cell was empty. So I don’t know what should have happened. Epstein came back and went to his cell. I don’t know where Reyes is or if he’s coming back. So I don’t know what should have happened.¶
MR. : Okay. So if an inmate is required to have a cellmate, such as Epstein, when the cellmate -. Sorry, I don’t know if I just misspoke. If Epstein was required to have a cellmate, as Epstein was, after his cellmate departs, which was Reyes, do you know if there’s a - how long it should take for him to get replaced?¶
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cell counts and the rounds so that there’s no misunderstanding. So this first one is going to be the 8/9/2019 for the 30-minute check sheet. And the other one is going to be 8/10/2019. Can you just let me know if you see your handwriting and initials on these two documents?¶
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MR. : Is that what that was? As well as you received the annual training. And all this stuff that we’re talking about isn’t like the real detailed stuff. This is like you know conducting counts and rounds. And the essential duties as a correctional officer. So I’m assuming you -. Is it safe to assume that you received this training you know during those trainings? I know you didn’t go¶
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MS. NOEL: I mean I don’t have a specific name, but I’ve seen it done.¶
MR. : Did anyone ever tell you to do that?¶
MS. NOEL: This is actually I think the first time I’ve ever done the round sheets because I’ve never actually done the round sheets in the SHU. But those two days were the days that I’ve done the round sheets in the SHU.¶
MR. : So if this was your first time doing a round sheet, did someone instruct you on how to do it?¶
MS. NOEL: No because I just followed what I seen. But I’ve worked with people before that was filling it out and that’s how it’s been done.¶
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MS. NOEL: No. I mean if I’m putting the time on there saying that I conducted the round at this time, and I didn’t conduct the round at this time, that’s wrong. But I didn’t think it was wrong to fill it out all before or after because that’s how they do it.¶
MR. : So that’s a contradicting statement. You know that it’s not right to conduct a round at the time that you conducted it, but you didn’t know that it was wrong to (Indiscernible *02:28:16).¶
MR. FOY: She knows that now. But this is the way it was done.¶
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MR. FOY: She followed. But like when you look at the policy and now that we’re here and we’ve had discussions. Okay. That’s not how it’s supposed to work.¶
MR. : But at the time that you’re filling this out on August 9th at the beginning of your shift saying that you conducted these rounds at a time that they weren’t conducted yet. You had to have known that that wasn’t -. Maybe you saw people doing the wrong thing, but you couldn’t have possibly thought that that was correct.¶
MS. NOEL: Well I -.¶
MR. Because you’re falsely certifying that rounds are completed when you didn’t. There’s times even that they’re events in the future.¶
MS. NOEL: I understand but I didn’t know that. I just followed whatever I saw that was being done.¶
MR. : I absolutely understand the defense that you said other people have done this and you’re following their guidance. But you can’t possibly think that it’s okay to¶
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fill out certifications saying that you conducted rounds in the future that haven’t taken place and that you actually didn’t do at the same time. Is that something being lost in translation? Do you follow what I’m asking you? Do you think it’s okay to sign on the round sheet that you conducted a time -? Conducted a round -?¶
MS. NOEL: But it’s the same thing as the end. Like if I do it all at the end at the times that I’m putting, I’m not going to remember all those times specifically.¶
MR. : Absolutely. I would also argue that anytime you’re falsifying a record, you always know that that’s wrong.¶
MS. NOEL: So. But. I mean.¶
MR. : So I do understand that you’re saying other people do it. And that’s why I want to get into who else is doing this? Who trained you on that? How do you know that was the way that things were done? So that’s where my question of who talked to you about it. You said no one actually spoke to you about it. But you —¶
MS. NOEL: No. I just seen people do¶
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you had to know that you shouldn’t have done it.¶
MR. : You’re saying that you’re doing it because that’s how other people are doing it. But you’re all doing it wrong. Correct?¶
MS. NOEL: But -. But in a case like this, who am I telling because like -.¶
MR. : I’m not asking you to tell anybody.¶
MS. NOEL: No-no-no. When I say telling, I’m like okay. If it’s -. Okay. I understand you’re saying that I know that it’s wrong. But I’m saying like okay, like how the lieutenant. Like when you said to me, does she know that I didn’t do the training? And I said yes she knows that but she still told me to sign that.¶
MR. Absolutely.¶
MS. NOEL: So again, I’m not going to think. Like I said, I’m not thinking of this as like I’m falsifying a document. It’s just the culture of MCC and I just followed. I’m new. I don’t know. I just lean on the senior officer or the people that I’m working with for¶
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and got mandated. So now she’s the officer in charge for the first time at midnight with a senior officer, even though he’s really worked there regularly. And he’s not there for guidance so to speak.¶
MR. : So this one -. This was your daily assignments and I see where it says you’re relieved without pay for a great amount of time up until -. It looks like 6/26/2019 you were assigned SHU number three. And then through - what we’re looking at is 8/10, SHU number one. So if you want to reference this on days that you worked or —¶
MR. : That’s that thing. So I understand what you’re saying is that this is your first time and she was the one in charge and she wasn’t having an officer in charge to confer with I guess.¶
MR. FOY: Right.¶
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MR. FOY: Which she is in her mind doing is well we’re supposed to do rounds. But no one ever really does them every 30 to 40 minutes. But you’ve got to fill out certain paperwork that’s required. So you fill out the paperwork. Now I know from looking at the discovery not every single officer did that. Right?¶
MR. FOY: I saw in the discovery that there were people who - there would be blanks¶
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wrong. And she’s like, well yeah, but I’m just kind of doing. I’m not trying to commit a crime. Like it wasn’t like - and that’s kind of been my pitch the whole time. She wasn’t out to commit a crime. This isn’t about hiding my behavior because Jeff Epstein died.¶
MR. FOY: Right? It’s all there. Right?¶
Even the theory of the case is when asked what happened. We messed up. Right? That’s the like they tell the truth. There’s no deceit - deception —¶
MR. : Mm-hmm.¶
MR. FOY: — in frustrating the investigation or the response. Now we’re here, we’re trying to clear it up. We understand the job that you have. You know address some of the specifics here, but it’s a much broader vision. So we’re trying to bring light to that and she’s doing the best she can to do it. I think the issue is we’re doing this almost two years later. Right?¶
MR. □: Sure.¶
MR. FOY: That’s the problem. And -.¶
MR. □: And the next day might be¶
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MR. : Alright. So ZA is going to be the number that’s going to reflect for¶
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MS. NOEL: Uh, no. I think Thomas discussed. Thomas was on the phone with -. Because the count wouldn’t have cleared if it said 72 and 73. So I think Thomas had a conversation. But I didn’t have a conversation with anybody.¶
MS. NOEL: Because on the -. I remember at the other one, Thomas had the count slips all and I couldn’t find - I couldn’t find the count slip. And I remember I rewrote it. But as far as why the count changed to 72, I don’t remember why.¶
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MS. NOEL: But see I don’t remember that at this point. Like I mean I wrote 73. I counted. I remember Thomas having a conversation. the number was switched to 72 but I don’t remember like physically like adding it up like I don’t remember that. And again, maybe I miscounted because I counted by myself. This was before. But at 12:00 -.¶
MR. : And being that¶
MR. : And being that signed before you did the count, do you think¶
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recorder is back on. It is currently 1:46 p.¶
This is Senior Special Agent.¶
I’m just reminding you Ms. Noel you are under oath and this is a voluntary interview. Thank you again for your cooperation. So when we took a break, is there anything that you wanted to add from the last thing we were talking about? The difference between the 4:00, the 10:00, and the 12:00, and the different numbers.¶
MS. NOEL: On the plus one. I don’t know where the plus one came from. I absolutely counted at 10:00. I don’t know why is there a plus one. And then when the number changed, like there’s something that’s sometimes it’s called like a ghost count. I don’t know. I don’t remember if that’s what happened. So whereas, control will call you and say, put it as a ghost count. So the inmate is not physically there but they know there the inmate is. Because they didn’t redo the count sheet. So that’s the only thing I can think of - the ghost count.¶
MR. : I could think it may be a ghost count for the plus one. But if you’re¶
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writing the numbers and it’s supposed to be -.¶
I mean when you’re -.¶
MS. NOEL: No. I’m talking about for the 73 and then how it changed to 72. As far as the plus one, I don’t know about the plus one. I’m talking about the 73.¶
MS. NOEL: No but what I’m saying. Okay. Like I’m like I said, I really don’t remember, but let’s say if I counted 72. And they said ghost count John. And I put 73. As far as the plus one, I don’t know. And I put 73 because they know where the inmate is. And then after for the next count they fixed the roster. Because that’s why it’s called a ghost count because they didn’t move to where the person is supposed to be. And then they fix it on the¶
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MR. : So just give me a little more information on what you’re just saying. You know you counted but what?¶
MS. NOEL: No. I’m saying I know I absolutely counted. And that always stood out to me because I remember he was on a triple and he was tired.¶
MS. NOEL: And I counted by myself which I’m not supposed to. So I remember that. But as far as the numbers go, I don’t remember this because I didn’t even remember something about a plus one until I seen the count slip. Like I don’t recall nothing about a plus one.¶
MS. NOEL: So as far as the numbers, I’m not sure. But as far as counting, I absolutely counted.¶
MS. NOEL: That’s what I’m saying. As far as the numbers go, I don’t remember. But I counted.¶
MR. : Let’s see. You counted what? So I mean what did you do with the¶
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numbers that you counted?¶
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MS. NOEL: Yes. I counted each tier. I don’t know if I added them up. But usually when I’m counting, that’s what I do. I write it down, K Tier with the number, L Tier I put the number, and I add them up.¶
MS. NOEL: But if I miscounted, remember I counted by myself. So if I miscounted, I would have called control and I would have said 73. They would have been like no, your count is wrong.¶
MR. : That’s where I’m having difficulty because it’s like the system says 73. So if you miscounted 73, and the system said 73, but there’s only 72, how are you saying you actually counted?¶
MS. NOEL: Bu there at 10:00, it’s 73 on here and it’s 73 on here.¶
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MS. NOEL: On the count slip, it says 10:00. It’s always going to say that. Like even if -. Like on the count slip, let’s say if I counted at 10:15, it’s still going to say 10:00 because —¶
MS. NOEL: So that’s what I’m saying. A round.¶
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MR. : Okay. So on the round sheet. Does that also say 10:00 p.m.? I mean I know you said you prepopulated that one. But what does that one say? And that’s for August 9th. You already said August 10th, none of the rounds were conducted. On August 9th, I guess around the 10:00, you know that nothing after 10:00 was actually conducted on the round sheet?¶
MS. NOEL: It has after 10:00 on here.¶
MR. : Okay. So those ones.¶
Those ones from then on you know those weren’t conducted.¶
MS. NOEL: Right. Remember I didn’t fill this out.¶
MR. : You prepopulated it.¶
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MR. : And you didn’t have a conversation about filling them out at 12:00?¶
MS. NOEL: No because we do that all the time. Like when he came in, we filled them out. And then, I think when the phone rang, he had the conversation. And then there was another time when I was looking of for the counts slip, he had it and I couldn’t find it. So I had to like wake him up to resign the count slip.¶
MR. : Now give me - can you walk me through that? So he gets a call. You already filled out the count slips. Was one submitted? You put it through the door and internal came and got it?¶
MS. NOEL: And he spoke to whoever. And then he wrote on the count slip. And we filled it out. And I put it back through the door.¶
MR. : For the corrected one that said 73? Then you made it 72?¶
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number. Is that correct?¶
MS. NOEL: Correct. And you fill it out. Even on a regular housing unit, I fill it all out. And then I count. Because even if it’s wrong, you can just rewrite it.¶
MS. NOEL: Because even if I come in and you say it’s 72. And I fill it out and I put 72 on all of them. I know nobody there’s no movement between 12 and 8. So even if I did that and I put 72, and I counted and it’s wrong, I could just change it. So that’s the way I’ve always done it.¶
MR. : That that’s the way it’s done. That you prepopulated all these numbers and then you just change them later if they end up being off?¶
MS. NOEL: No. Because they’re usually not off.¶
MS. NOEL: And then like if I’m working a unit-. If I work that unit and I did a double¶
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there, I counted, so I know that’s what it is. So it doesn’t sound crazy that I fill it out.¶
MR. : Well in this instance it does because your count was wrong - the one you said that you counted.¶
MS. NOEL: Okay. But that’s that case. But I’m saying like it’s not -. If I worked a double on 11 North and I’ve been there the shift before and the shift after, and I filled it out. I know there’s no movement. So no, it’s not crazy that I filled it out.¶
MS. NOEL: No. About prepopulating the count slips, he came in, he filled it out and I signed it. It wasn’t a conversation about that. When it was time to do the - when it was time to conduct the count, I tried to wake him up and he was really tired. He was like I’m¶
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had. Usually, it would be like hey if this is the first time I’m not going to do something. I would say like, hey is it cool that we’re not going to do this? Or some kind of a conversation. Unless it was something that you had learned or experienced in the past. That like we don’t do counts at this time.¶
MS. NOEL: But I never worked the SHU at that time.¶
MR. FOY: This is calling for you to explain your interaction with Thomas.¶
MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm.¶
MR. FOY: As it relates to the count in particular. Right?¶
MR. : Correct.¶
MR. FOY: He asleep. What’s the interaction? What did you say? What did he say? Did you ask one time? Did you ask multiple times? Did he affirmatively say no? Or did he just continue to sleep? That’s the level of detail they’re asking for.¶
MR. : Yeah. We’re asking you to explain all of your interactions with Thomas with regard to these counts.¶
MS. NOEL: Well when it was time to count,¶
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because remember I’m going upstairs to count.¶
So I wake him up to count. And he was like I’m tired. He was like we have the count slip.¶
I’m tired. He went back to sleep. When the lieutenant came, I woke him up because the lieutenant was coming. He fell back to sleep in front of the lieutenant. She said hey, you need to stay awake. He couldn’t stay awake.¶
I went upstairs and I counted again.¶
MR. FOY: Go back to the lieutenant. Explain that in more detail. There’s details you’re leaving out of the interaction between Thomas and the lieutenant with respect to him sleeping.¶
MS. NOEL: Oh. I woke him up. The lieutenant came. She came, she found the round sheet. He fell back asleep in front of her. She said, hey you need to wake up. She had papers and she hit him. She says, hey you need to wake up.¶
MR. FOY: That’s what I’m talking about.¶
MS. NOEL: She hit him with a stack of papers. So saying that to say like everybody knows like because we’re understaffed and overworked. So let’s say if I was to tell on¶
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tried to wake him up for the 5:00. Because by that time he went upstairs. I remember he went upstairs to relive . And I don’t remember what happened between there as far as waking him up.¶
MR. : Alright. And as far as the inaccuracy of the one count, specifically now we’re talking about the 12:00 a.m. that it was actually - it’s off. He got a call but he didn’t talk to you about what was said on the other line?¶
MS. NOEL: No. He just said we got to change the count slip. And he wrote it. And he changed it. And I signed.¶
MS. NOEL: But he didn’t say like oh the lieutenant this happened or that happened. No.¶
MR. : Alright. And have you ever experienced previous instances where the count was off from when it was called in? Like if you give the number and they say no that’s not right?¶
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MS. NOEL: On - not in the SHU. In other units.¶
MS. NOEL: Right. But I don’t think that was the case with that. Like they called in and gave-. Okay. That was a case where like if I counted wrong, and then they’ll say no it’s wrong. And then I recount and I get the right number. But in this case, they gave him the number because of whatever I guess they knew where the inmate was or was supposed to be or wasn’t moved. That’s what I’m saying. I don’t know what happened between the 73 an the 72. But when he changed the number, he said the lieutenant said so I just signed it.¶
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Senior Special Agent and I am pausing the recording. [Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record and went back on the record.] Okay. The recorder is back on. It is 2:28 p.m. Again Ms. Noel you are under oath and this is a voluntary interview. Thank you for your cooperation.¶
Alright. So if you don’t mind, just all the documents I have in front of you, can you just initial and date those just again so that we —¶
MR. FOY: Yeah. Just on the first page.¶
MR. : — know what it is that you were looking at during this interview.¶
Thank you very much for initialing and dating all of those.¶
MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm.¶
MR. : Alright. We’re just going to talk briefly about the SHU layout. These are papers that have the SHU layout. Now are the - just for your reference if you need to look at them. Are the COs assigned to the SHU located together on one social - one centralized location? Sorry, so the officers that are working in the SHU. Are you all together? You mentioned there’s a desk in the¶
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somebody else was looking him up and it just prepopulated when you turned on the computer?¶
MS. NOEL: I don’t think it does that. Like on the searches, like the current news will be there. So he’s in the current news, so he’ll be there.¶
MS. NOEL: It won’t like load the page. Like when you click on like Internet Explorer or you click on like Firefox or whatever. When the page loads, the news is there, weather.¶
MR. : Okay. So if you prepopulated something and then you searched on that day, Epstein at the MCC, that possibly could have been something that was like on a news feed?¶
MS. NOEL: When you say prepopulated, like that as soon as you click it like it was there. Not like you said a search.¶
MR. : So you weren’t. Yeah. Like a search. Like you were actually looking at it. Or if like a news feed.¶
MS. NOEL: Oh yeah. Like I’m looking at it because it’s there. But not like typing it in.¶
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is that a door that is closed? Was it closed or was it open?¶
MS. NOEL: Because usually the door is not open. His intentions is to feed. So he would just open the slot and put the food in. When¶
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MS. NOEL: Oh no. I can’t see inside the cell. I could only just see Thomas doing CPR.¶
MR. : But you saw him lower him to the floor?¶
MS. NOEL: Yes. He lowered him to the floor and I -.¶
MR. : So this is what I want to know. What did you see? So what you could see from where you were standing? What could you see? Everything. Because I’m getting confused with what you’re telling me. I thought you said you never looked in. You never saw anything. What did you see? From the moment the medical emergency occurred. So he walked to the door -.¶
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MS. NOEL: Get the cutter. And then I heard the rip. He lowered him to the floor. He was doing CPR. He said, “breathe Epstein breathe” and he said we’re going to be in so much trouble. But I never said anything.¶
MS. : I think it’s important though that you convey to him like - that you didn’t understand the magnitude of what had just taken place. Right? Because that’s something that you had expressed. So like not knowing what a cutter was. And maybe that gives insight into why there wasn’t a more in-depth conversation. I think it’s important that -.¶
MS. NOEL: Yeah. When he said to get the cutter, like I would have to go try to look for where a cutter was. But he didn’t need it because I heard the rip. And then when he said we was going to be in so much trouble, like I¶
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still wasn’t thinking like the trouble that we’re in now. I was just probably thinking because I know we didn’t do the count. But I never responded because all the inmates by this time are on the door.¶
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MR. : And you said you don’t know if Thomas actually checked to see if he was alive?¶
know if Thomas actually checked to see if he was alive?¶
MS. NOEL: Yeah. I don’t know.¶
MR. : You just know he went straight into compressions. And did you say you were two or three minutes that you stood there? How long were you actually at the when they walked into the door?¶
MS. NOEL: When I went to go get them to come in the door? Between the time -¶
MR. : So you let -. Thomas goes in. He goes into the room. He’s making these - you know you’re watching him do some compressions. He makes the statement, “we’re going to be in so much trouble.” How long are you standing there while you’re observing this?¶
MS. NOEL: About one to two minutes. Because I’m waiting for - the radio is going to tell me when everybody’s -. Because remember, once I hit that button, everybody’s coming. So the radio is going to tell me when everybody’s at - when they’re at the door. And then when I pop the door and let them in. So I go to the door.¶
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MR. : Okay. What did you observe from the bottom of the stairs? When people arrived?¶
MS. NOEL: They got a stretcher. And they put him on the stretcher. And brought him out.¶
MR. : Did anyone take over for the CPR efforts that Thomas was doing?¶
MS. NOEL: I don’t remember.¶
MR. : You don’t remember seeing this? So this isn’t something that’s vivid in your memory? You know like this whole big occurrence. You’re not almost like you’re playing it in slow motion?¶
MS. NOEL: No because when Thomas was doing CPR. Then when they came, they took the stretcher and put him on the stretcher and left. As far as when they’re -. Remember it’s a lot of people. So I’m not really seeing like who’s two steps - they’re coming out with him.¶
MR. : About how many people responded?¶
MS. NOEL: Mm. I don’t know. Maybe 10, 15.¶
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between an inmate altercation versus a medical emergency?¶
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MS. NOEL: Yes. He was downstairs.¶
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someone wants to trick you to get in and then you - the other person overpowers him. And now has a -.¶
: Okay. So I just want to - again, when I ask you these questions just make sure we say like aside from this or that. So any other things aside from that instance where they asked you what happened. And you said you don’t recall saying we didn’t do the 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. rounds. But you do recall Thomas saying it wasn’t her fault.¶
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union was saying you know they’re fighting for us. They’re there for us. They’re supporting us. You know that was along the line. We’re going to have to meet with you guys to be investigated. Just tell the truth. That was along the line.¶
MS. NOEL: But my conversation wasn’t directly with Thomas. It was - we were both being told.¶
MR. : So aside from the union and with that interaction with Thomas, was anybody else that you discussed the Epstein incident with since August 10th?¶
MS. NOEL: More or less. Mm-hmm.¶
MR. : Is there anything else that you want to add to anything we’ve talked about? Being and just keep in mind the - under oath. What you just said. The union said just tell the truth. The way that you get in trouble from this point forward is basically if you don’t tell the truth. You know, anything¶
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the legal line is.¶
MR. : Okay. You said it was not weird Epstein was left alone with the phone. Has this happened before?¶
MS. NOEL: Where an inmate is in the tier using the phone? Yeah.¶
MR. : Who - to your recollection - which other inmates were allowed to make phone calls like that?¶
MS. NOEL: I don’t have a name, but it’s not because they’re allowed to make a phone call like that. It’s only if where their cell is located, the jack’s not working. So it’s not like they put inmates in the shower to have private phone calls. It’s just that if where your cell is that, the jack’s not working, they put you -. Because they can’t put you with another - in another inmate’s room. And they can’t leave you out in the open. So they place you over there because the jack is closest to it to make the phone call.¶
MR. : So you know who could set up a call like that? Can anyone - any CO just plug it in? Or does it have to be a specific person who plugs it in?¶
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there anything that you can think of that we should be discussing? Or 0?¶
MS. : I mean I-. If OIG really wants to know what led up to the death of Mr. Epstein. I think that there needs to be a thorough investigation of the Metropolitan Correctional Center and it’s pitfalls. I’ll just you know kind of leave it at that. And I’m sure you’re getting a little bit of insight into what the MCC is. Not just staffing but conditions for inmates as well. It failed a new employee. Yes there are some things that she absolutely should be taking responsibly for. But what led up to the unfortunate death of Mr. Epstein wasn’t just August 9th and August 10th.¶
MR. : Referring to the fact that she was trained on people not conducing rounds and counts?¶
MS. : It’s a cultural issue at MCC New York. Falsifying of documents to pass program reviews. Inadequate training of employees. Um an employee may go through an IF training but most of that training is three weeks or so. Most of the time, you’ll find¶
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yourself sitting down in the training center I believe because they don’t have someone to actually train you. But they’ll tell you sign the training sheets. So if something like this comes up, it implies that the employee received the training. When actually I was present to receive the training but nobody taught me. The same thing is you know for annual refresher training. There’s a cultural issue at the Metropolitan Correctional Center. Is it agency-wide? I don’t know. I’ve only been at MCC New York. But there are some pitfalls. There have been inmates that’s prior to Mr. Epstein and since Mr. Epstein and I believe the inadequate managing of the building plays a big role in those deaths. Assaults of staff and inmates. And you guys, I guarantee you’ve seen it. I’m sure there’s something you’ve seen that you’re like, wow that’s a little bit crazy what just seems very egregious it’s because it’s not being run the correct way. It’s failing staff and inmates every day.¶
MR. : Well thank you for that. On that note, I know we talked about you know how you observed other staff members like¶
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pretty much not conducting the round sheets the way they did it, as well as the supervisor that told you to sign the training that you never actually attended. Can you think of anything else that you were asked to do like that from anyone? Or observed anyone else? As like a training or an experience that was - now that you’re thinking back on it - wrong?¶
MS. NOEL: Um… I mean I haven’t really been there that long. So the only thing I could recall was Lieutenant was oh. I think when I had my probationary year, like I’m supposed to get reviewed like every quarter. Like to get before I get off probation. I’ve only got it one time. I think it’s supposed to be done three times. I’ve only got it one time.¶
MR. : And were you asked to sign on a quarterly basis that you received that evaluation?¶
MS. NOEL: I know I signed it one time that I got it. But I never got the other two. So just basically just showing how -.¶
MR. : But they didn’t actually ask you to sign something?¶
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MR. : Is there any instances you can think of that you like needed to sign for something that you thought oh I shouldn’t sign for that. I didn’t take this training. I didn’t conduct these rounds. Is there anything else like that that you can think of that’s happened while you were at the MCC?¶
MS. NOEL: I mean, like for example, like she said in IF training, there’s a roster with a whole bunch of stuff that we’re signing next to. But like let’s say, lieutenant so-and-so is supposed to teach that class and they didn’t show up. But I already signed that I received it. But I didn’t get the actual training. So I’m signing that I’m present and I’m here for the training, but I didn’t actually get it.¶
MR. : So you’re showing up at training —¶
MS. NOEL: But I can’t remember -.¶
MR. : — and they’re actually not conducting it and they’re certifying they’re —¶
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MR. : — conducting the training?¶
MS. NOEL: Yeah. There were a couple of training that we didn’t get because there was nobody there to teach the class.¶
MR. : And they certified that they actually -¶
MS. NOEL: Yeah. I remember when I was in IF, they would tell me stuff. But I never walked. You’re supposed to get a tour of the building for when you sit in training and in the SHU blah-blah-blah - you have a visual. They never even did that. Like they would explain like when they say down range, you have to just imagine what’s down range because I never been in that jail and I didn’t know. I’m saying that to say like the training is not-. You guys probably look at oh I signed or you’re saying this training or that she should know this. But I don’t actually necessarily have to know it because it wasn’t like taught. And if I kind of learn as you go along, that’s why I said like it’s wrong, but I tried to mimic or follow what I see. Other people do. And yes I’ve exercised poor judgment on things,¶
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but even sometimes you ask people and they tell you the wrong thing. That’s MCC. So even if I don’t know and I call and I say hey how do you do this? They’d be like oh just do this.¶
MR. : And what do you - now that you’ve experienced this, what do you blame that on? Do you also blame it on like poor management or like a lack of manpower? What is your thoughts on that?¶
MS. NOEL: It’s both but every time something happens, the officers get in trouble. And the problem is it starts from the top. Because if my supervisor is telling me to falsify documents, and I do it, I’m in trouble. But Lieutenant got promoted. You understand? Like the problem starts from eh top. And it comes all the way down. It’s not being managed correctly and the manpower is also not there. Like you can’t take somebody and tell them to work 16 hours. And remember, it’s a thing where I’m on probation, so I can’t say, no I’m not working it. So you asked me to work 16 hours every day. I’m a human being. I’m not a robot. I fell asleep plenty of times going home. I come to work. I remember one¶
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time I called the lieutenant’s office. Like I can’t keep my eyes open because that’s just the reality of it. By the time you go home, it’s time for you to -. Some people don’t even go home. They try to sleep in the locker room because the manpower is not there. And it’s absolutely ridiculous. For me, I started in June of 2018. The indictment said 2016. That’s not true. To December. That’s only 6 months. And I made my base pay because of all that overtime.¶
MR. : Okay. Thank you. That’s all great insight. Anything else we want to add?¶
MS. NOEL: Mm. Nothing else.¶
MR. FOY: The only thing I can think of, which you’ve kind of alluded to, is what it feels like as a new employee. The culture. The friendliness or lack thereof. The fact that in a way, your trust in your colleagues is undermined through your colleagues. Right? I mean which makes it a difficult thing. I mean if you want to talk about that part of it. Right. Because it’s all related. It’s not just one thing. So I mean if you want to speak¶
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on it, this would be the time to say it.¶
MS. NOEL: I don’t know what -.¶
MR. FOY: Hm?¶
MS. NOEL: (Indiscernible *05:25:37)¶
MR. FOY: Your experience of was it a friendly experience? Did you feel supported by your colleagues? Like -.¶
MS. NOEL: Oh. No.¶
MR. FOY: Right? Did you like it there?¶
Did it feel safe? Like -.¶
MS. NOEL: Oh. No. Absolutely not.¶
Absolutely not.¶
MR. FOY: But you’ve got -.¶
MS. NOEL: I was actually trying to - like from the moment I started there, I didn’t like it there and I was trying to get out of there. But I’m not going to quit a job and go sit at home. So. The atmosphere was - like to me, I didn’t feel safe because if you don’t have enough people to work the units and something happens and you hit a body alarm, who’s responding? If there’s no nobody there. So that’s a problem in itself. There’s been times where you got one officer working two units. So what if somebody died on the other unit and¶
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the officer is on the other unit? But there’s been - and that’s all not supposed to happen. But like I said, when nothing happens it’s okay because nobody died. Nothing happened. But when something happens, then that officer working the two units gets in trouble not the lieutenant that said hey I’m assigning you to work these two units. And yes, we know we’re not supposed to work the two units. But again, I don’t feel like I can override my lieutenant or I can override the senior officer because the instruction that’s being passed on from the top is not correct. But who am I going to tell? Because everybody in that building knows from the warden all the way down knows we don’t have enough people. We don’t have enough. From day one I entered that building, that’s all I’ve been hearing. We don’t have enough people. We don’t have enough people. People get hurt because there’s not enough staff to respond to certain. Like when I’m on a unit and inmates are fighting-. Like if the inmates really wanted to take over and harm you, they could have. And then who’s responding fast enough because maybe you hit¶
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the body alarm sometimes only three people come.¶
MR. : So with all this in mind, is there anything that you can think of as a way to rectify these issues?¶
MS. NOEL: They need staffing. And I don’t know if people don’t stay there because like the culture of MCC is just -. It needs to start over. Like it needs to be cleaned out and start over. And people need to follow the rules and reinforce and show people the correct things. Then maybe - maybe it could get somewhere. But when you have new people coming in and we’re taught bad - and again, I’m not blaming everything on me being taught bad.¶
It’s what I see. What I know. And again, yes I could sit and read an employee handbook. Sometimes you ready stuff in the context of -. Like I’m not in a camp. I’m in a high rise. So the context of what you’re reading in an employee book refers to like you know those types of institutions and not MCC. So sometimes when you try to put it into perspective -.¶
MR. : You keep on saying camp.¶
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MS. NOEL: Yes. Versus a high-rise building. So it’s - the procedures are a little bit different. So that’s why I rely on the people inside to teach me. And you’ll always hear this being said. There’s the BOP way and there’s the MCC way because at MCC, they do it their way.¶
MR. : Okay. Good to know.¶
MS. NOEL: There’s been -. And again because I don’t know because they probably don’t give you the roster. Every single time that I’ve came to work, I’ve called to switch with somebody else because I don’t want to work SHU. Because I don’t know how to work SHU. And it’s very annoying that you have to keep having to ask somebody. There’s plenty of times that I called across like somebody working 9 North, like hey you want to switch with me? And I switch. Because on a regular¶
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note that said an inmate wanted to rape me.¶
And I forward the email to the lieutenant and I never got a call back. And I called and I said -. Because that inmate is still on the unit.¶
So if the inmate really wanted to rape me, then I guess he would have. So I called and I’m like did you get my email? And she was like yeah I got it, but that inmate ain’t going to do nothing to you. These are the type of things that happen at MCC. How do you know that inmate’s not going to do anything to me?¶
What you should have did was remove me from that unit or remove that inmate, but that wasn’t done. Inmates have threatened me. And they’re supposed to remove them out of the building but they don’t. Inmates have threatened me and I have sent them to SHU. And then they’ll release them and then they came right back to my unit. So again, it’s like who are you telling or complaining to at MCC?¶
Because from the top there’s no help. And I’m literally at the bottom. I was the last officer at the time.¶
MR. : Now do you know of (Indiscernible *05:31:04) corrupt officers like¶
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bringing in contraband? Is that like a problem at the MCC?¶
MS. NOEL: It is a problem. But I don’t know who brings it in. I just always wonder like how did -? As far as smoking. Like there’s smoking all in the building. I get headaches daily because of the smoking. So it comes in some way. But as far as who or how it comes in, I don’t know.¶
MR. ： And I would think it’s kind of easy to identify who is smoking. Correct?¶
MS. NOEL: Oh - the - you’ll be sitting in your officer’s station, and you smell smoke. But remember they’re inmates. So by the time I get out, they always have a watch person. So by the time I feel like okay I smell it, it’s coming from here. Let me go walk the tier this way, they’ll be like, she coming. So they already done-.¶
MR. : Now what are you smelling? What kind of smoke? Is it marijuana or is it -?¶
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MS. : It’s the entire building and you know, I would welcome, right, if OIG said we want to tour the institution.¶
(Indiscernible *05:32:11) and judges do.¶
Attorneys do. Law clerks do. Right. Because it gives you a little bit of - you can actually put a visual besides seeing the photos. You can get a visual. You actually get to see what it is to be an employee there or even an inmate there. And the drug problem is absolutely rampant. The institution has no control over it. Right. So it boils down to that employee saying okay if you guys don’t stop smoking, I’m locking everybody behind a door because it’s making me sick. Or it’s making me -. It’s that kind of thing. Like they’re not holding inmates responsible for incident reports. None of that stuff is happening. And it just makes¶
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it a very bad place to work. And it makes it a poor place for a new employee to work. Right?¶
And I say that wholeheartedly understanding that there is some onus on Ms. Noel. There’s just some things as an adult you have to say, I take responsibly for it. I don’t think she’s ever come out of taking that responsibly. But that MCC New York failed Ms. Noel, Mr. Thomas, and Mr. Epstein regardless of what he was in jail for, I don’t believe anybody deserves loss of life behind the walls of a jail especially in that manner. Right? And there’s just so many things so when you ask questions to Ms. Noel such as, “Are there any instances of falsifying documents,” you’re not going to say to me, but I guarantee you that in reviewing rosters and training records, I’m sure you guys have questionable discrepancies. I’m sure you’ve caught rosters not reflecting what videos show. I’m sure you’ve caught employees on rosters - not on rosters but attending a training, but the roster says they’re on sick leave or annual leave. I would bet my next low paycheck that that’s absolute to what you guys have probably seen or experienced in¶
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CERTIFICATE¶
I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of:¶
Interview of TOVA NOEL¶
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