DIGITALLY RECORDED¶
SWORN STATEMENT¶
MICHAEL THOMAS¶
OIG CASE #:¶
OF¶
2019-010614¶
OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL¶
JUNE 17, 2021¶
RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES¶
Agoura Hills, CA 91301¶
Phone:¶
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MR. The recorder is on. My name is I’m a senior Special Agent with the U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General, New York Field Office and these are my credentials. This interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons employee Michael Thomas is being conducted as part of an official U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General investigation. Today’s date is June 17, 2021 and the time is 10:07 a.m. This interview is being conducted at the Law Offices of Montel Figgins located at Newark, New Jersey. Also present are DOJ OIG Special Agent BOP employee Michael Thomas, Mr. Thomas’ attorney, Douglas Mitchell from the Law Offices of Montel Figgins, and Union Representative and Officer Specialist at the MCC. This interview will be recorded by me, Senior Special Agent. Could everyone please identify themselves for the record and spell your last name. To start again, I am DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent.¶
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MR. MITCHELL: I am Douglas Mitchell, attorney Douglas Mitchell, Law Offices of Montel Figgins. Mitchell, M-I-T-C-H-E-L-L.¶
MR. : , President of Local 3148.¶
MR. : Thank you all. Mr. Thomas, you are here today as a subject in this DOJ OIG investigation. This DOJ investigation concerns your alleged misconduct to include allegations of false statements, job performance failure, security failure, and reporting false information. This is an official DOJ OIG investigation and you are being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG?¶
MR. : Thank you, sir. Now we have a form here for our employees who provide voluntary answers to our questions. It’s the U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to¶
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Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. It says: You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 as amended. This investigation pertains to your alleged false statements, job performance failure, security failure, and reporting false information. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings or agency proceedings, disciplinary proceedings, or both. And obviously, we have the DPA. Then there’s a waiver section. I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me. Now if you want to take a look or anybody - the attorney or anybody - wants to¶
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MR. THOMAS: Are these annual refresher¶
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there’s no confusion of what actually was provided to you. And what you actually looked at. And it’s not - not certifying to the accuracy of this. It’s just certifying that this is what I showed you.¶
MR. : This was all supposed to be attached to that. So what you’ll see is just so that we’re on the same page is just all the way from 2007 up to ‘08, ‘09, 2019.¶
MR. : It’s just what they have in the BOP system. Every time he conducts a training, they log it in so they can keep a record of what training individuals conducted.¶
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MR. : And for this, the main point for this was that again, you did take the annual refresher training in April of 2019. Any questions on that?¶
MR. Great. Thank you, sir. Can you just kind of go through and find the Daily Schedule? There we go. His roster would be in there. Alright. And at that annual refresher training, like just roughly what do you recall that you had learned there?¶
MR. THOMAS: It’s a bunch of different classes.¶
MR. THOMAS: It goes from somebody speaking to somebody putting something up on the teleprompter and then you’re reading off it’s a variety of classes depending on how the instructor at that time would present the class.¶
MR. : Okay. Great. Let me see. So just to bring us back to this. It¶
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MR. THOMAS: If I’m not mistaken, that’s on the ART. If I’m not mistaken, that’s on the ART.¶
MR. THOMAS: I really couldn’t tell you the exact name of the course or anything like that.¶
MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It has -. No. I’m saying it has what you just said a suicide prevention course. I’m sure it’s something like that in ART.¶
MR. : Oh, okay. But I was trying to use suicide prevention as like an example of a training that you’re received to be able to work in the SHU. What I’m asking is like -. To make sure -. I could say -.¶
MR. THOMAS: No. I don’t think that’s an actual course to work on the SHU - to work¶
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was assigned to the SHU? Again, I believe it was July and August aside from those timeframes. Correct?¶
MR. THOMAS: I really don’t know.¶
MR. : Yeah. That’s fine. What was Epstein’s routine while he was assigned at the SHU?¶
MR. THOMAS: I don’t know.¶
MR. Because you did the overnight shift, I can understand that. So are you aware that like during the day he would meet with his attorneys every day? And then he would be - so from basically 8:00 a.m. until like 7:00 p.m. or 8:00 p.m. he was?¶
MR. THOMAS: I honestly really don’t know.¶
MR. : You don’t even know. So when you worked in the SHU was it always that 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. shift? In the SHU?¶
MR. THOMAS: Well I mean I’m sure I have some evening watch ones. I don’t know if I have some evening watch or not. But I’m sure I’ve done evening watch or anything like that but I didn’t look exactly at that. Maybe that’s all morning watch. This is all morning watch. Oh that’s day watch internal.¶
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suicide room. And I sat there and watched him for - I don’t know what six hours, seven hours, whatever that is.¶
MR. : But prior to them sitting down or even after, did they inform you why he was there?¶
MR. THOMAS: Well it’s suicide watch. It’s pretty self-explanatory?¶
MR. : But they didn’t provide you details?¶
MR. THOMAS: No-no. Just if you’re there on suicide watch it’s kind of self-explanatory. But if you go on -. Depending. Suicide watch is one thing and observation watch is another. But if it says suicide watch, I’m sure he was on suicide watch because he was in a smock and um -.¶
MR. THOMAS: It’s just a cover that you put over so you don’t have any clothes or anything like that.¶
MR. : Okay. Is it so they can’t harm themselves?¶
MR. THOMAS: Yeah, so they don’t harm themselves. Mm-hmm.¶
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MR. THOMAS: When I say he was really incoherent. He was just saying because actually me and was there for a while. It wasn’t just me by myself for maybe about 10-15 minutes when we got him. Let’s say half an hour. Got him there. Got him de-clothed. Got him into the suicide room. And then the lieutenant was there. Who was the lieutenant there? Oh I can’t remember. Who was the lieutenant there? And because I don’t have¶
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MR. THOMAS: Probably just wanted to get out of the cell. I don’t’ know. I really don’t. I really don’t know.¶
MR. : Okay. But you didn’t believe it. You believed that he was actually trying to harm himself rather than the other cellmate trying to harm him?¶
MR. THOMAS: Inmates say things. I really don’t know if it was. I really don’t know. I really don’t know. I just - me at that time, I was just sitting there. He wanted to talk.¶
I’m there. Why not talk?¶
MR. : Absolutely. But it didn’t cause you concern when he was saying that another inmate was trying to harm him?¶
MR. THOMAS: Well it was passed up and everything like that. Because when he came out, he said it to the lieutenant and everything like that. So everybody was known. But as far as anything - any concern. No. Inmates harm each other all the time.¶
MR. : Sure. Do you know if at¶
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MR. THOMAS: I don’t place people on the hotlist. I don’t know. That’s psychology.¶
MR. : Yeah. So if it’s up there though for people to see that this is the hotlist. Is there like a reason? Is it something like these people all need cellmates? These people need special attention. These people -. What’s the -?¶
MR. THOMAS: I really don’t know. I couldn’t tell you on that. It’s just like a hotlist. I know it’s a hotlist. Some - the psychology put. I don’t know if it’s particularly that all these people need cellmates or the hotlist or-. I know that there is something called a hotlist at MCC. I don’t know where they - entails you to get on the hotlist. No.¶
MR. : Oh. So not what it takes to get on it. But why it’s posted there. Like if you’re on the hotlist, what does that mean?¶
MR. THOMAS: Like I said, it could have been because you -.¶
MR. : So is there a description next to a name? Does it say you’re on the hotlist because of this reason?¶
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cellmate on August 9, 2019, who would be responsible for placing a new cellmate with Epstein?¶
MR. THOMAS: Honestly I don’t know. Honestly I don’t know. I’m sure it has to come from somebody higher up. Obviously a lieutenant or it could have come sometimes high-profile could come from the administration.¶
MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I don’t think an officer would just put somebody in there with him.¶
MR. : Okay. Now is that discussed at all like during any of those trainings or the suicide prevention trainings? Is it discussed like hey if you know this guy is on suicide watch, make sure he’s got a cellmate?¶
MR. THOMAS: I don’t think so. I don’t¶
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for a person who came off suicide watch not to have a cellmate?¶
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MR. : Okay. As someone in the SHU working in there and knowing someone’s without a cellmate that should have a cellmate, should you report it to a lieutenant?¶
MR. THOMAS: If they don’t have a cellmate should you report it to a lieutenant? Mm. I don’t know. I mean. Usually if that happens, the lieutenant, because with certain inmates you can’t just put somebody in with them like. It could be a racial thing. It could be he had a previous incident. He could be whatever the case may be. So I know officers don’t want to just do it because then they say oh that person can’t be in with them. And also before you put an inmate inside so you have to check their background as far as steps so this person can’t be with this person. Or this one is affiliated with this and this person. So for an officer because some officers don’t have the programming -. I mean don’t have the thing just to say oh well I’m going to see inmate this and I’m going to put him into that.¶
MR. THOMAS: So that’s why an officer wouldn’t just put an inmate inside with another¶
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cellmate with someone like Epstein?¶
MR. THOMAS: Well whoever is on shift at that time. It’s a process. Like it’s if someone leaves and goes from R&D to -. A staff member can’t just let somebody leave.¶
MR. THOMAS: You know. I can’t just let somebody walk just because he can walk in walk out.¶
MR. THOMAS: Has to come from R&D oh this person was released. And then because then the base count changes. And then so it’s notified before it gets to the SHU staff that somebody left. Or -.¶
MR. THOMAS: Now if it wasn’t you know that specific that Reyes left. You know what I mean. That Jeffrey Epstein. I know before it gets to the SHU staff happened to put somebody in there. It has to come from someone else to know that inmates left from a particular housing unit. Or SHU have to tell them the inmate left from a particular. Now whether they know that it was Epstein’s um cellmate¶
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MR. : Do inmates that are on suicide watch and psychological observation. Do they always go from there to the SHU? Or ever into somewhere else?¶
MR. THOMAS: What do you mean?¶
MR. : So if someone’s on suicide watch or psychological observation.¶
MR. THOMAS: On the second floor.¶
MR. : On the second floor.¶
When they are released from that, do they always get placed into the SHU or do they go —¶
MR. THOMAS: No. They can -.¶
MR. : — back into get general population?¶
MR. THOMAS: It can be either or. If they have some more SHU time that they have to serve or anything like that they can go back to the SHU. But their SHU time is up and it’s -. I’m assuming -. I’ll say it’s whatever the psychologists say. If they say that they’re cleared to go to population. They’ll take them to population.¶
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working in the SHU, do you treat everybody the same? Or certain people -?¶
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MR. THOMAS: Um. Usually they send this out to everybody like it’s sent out to everybody but I don’t remember seeing it. I’m sure if it was sent out to all staff, I’m sure it got to me. But I don’t remember seeing it.¶
MR. : And. Okay. Do any of these names that are on here -. Especially toward the bottom here. Any of these names people that would worked in the SHU?¶
MR. THOMAS: It could be a bunch of these people that worked in the SHU. I don’t know specifically who works in the SHU.¶
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most experience in the BOP in command? Or how does that work? When you’re in there with another person. There’s only two of you. Is there someone that’s kind of in charge?¶
MR. THOMAS: I’m going to say -. They’re going to say SHU -. How it is the BOP. How it is at the jail. They say SHU 1 is in charge.¶
MR. : Okay.¶
MR. THOMAS: But then they -. with SHU 1 or somebody with more time. Like if I have more time than SHU 1. How are you going to be in charge when you have more time? It depends. But then again, I’m non-custody. So it’s all different dynamics when it comes to that.¶
MR. THOMAS: But they will say SHU 1 is usually in charge. If you bid for SHU 1-. If you did a bid, they’ll say SHU 1 is in charge of the SHU.¶
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MR. THOMAS: She always walks by. She’s (Indiscernible *01:25:39) walk.¶
MR. : Do you remember if any - another CO came by maybe around like 5:30 a.m.?¶
MR. : Okay. What about like a breakfast cart? Who would provide that? How would that be done?¶
MR. THOMAS: Well the breakfast cart that they push it into the hallway. I wouldn’t see the person down in food service that -. I mean they push down the hallway and ring the bell. And I don’t remember who brought the food cart up. But the food cart came up and we seen in through our peripherals outside the hallway.¶
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MR. THOMAS: If the outer door -. It’s -. The outer door, whichever number it is, the outer door. You ring the bell. It signals somebody’s at the door. You look and you see. I see. I say can I get your name, sir? You see whoever it is. You call for the door. Look to see if the (Indiscernible *01:28:05) I see covering at the door. I bring - I call for the door. He comes in the door. Then there’s another door that’s locked. You unlock that door and then they come in and then you lock that door back.¶
MR. : So my question is though on the outer door. Who do you call? The control center.¶
MR. THOMAS: Looks down it. Well the control center verifies who is at the door and then they open the door.¶
MR. THOMAS: Yeah, there’s a camera in the¶
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MR. THOMAS: Because I had the um, the oh! Door keys and cuff key. Or if I had my cuff key.¶
MR. THOMAS: It rotates. During the course of the day it can’t rotate or anything like that.¶
MR. : Okay.¶
MR. THOMAS: When during the day when like somebody’s feeding or somebody’s doing this and you -. That person would take this key I’m going to go feed this row or I’m about to go do this. So if somebody’s doing law library. It can rotate. But during the course of the night, usually SHU 1 has one key and then I come up with the -. I eventually grab another key.¶
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MR. THOMAS: Yes. Well R&D would contact the SHU and let them know that somebody had been released.¶
MR. THOMAS: In a perfect world, R&D will call lieutenant’s office, call control, and call the SHU. I’m sure somebody had to call the SHU and let them know that their base count has changed.¶
MR. THOMAS: Some - one way or another, somebody called control to let them know that the base count has changed. Who did they call? I don’t know, but during that - because the courts close at 8:00.¶
MR. THOMAS: At the latest. Yeah. I believe it’s 8:00 p.m. So somebody called and let them know. R&D got the first call that¶
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MR. THOMAS: What timeframe? Are we talking about?¶
MR. : So your timeframe. Let’s talk about when you’re specifically there.¶
You’re there from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m.¶
Correct?¶
MR. : And you were there for both August 9th and August 10th. When should have you conducted counts and how should they have been conducted?¶
MR. THOMAS: How it happens is one officer goes up. You have the door key to the grills - the outside grill. You open the outside grill. One officer walks around, count, verified. Do one count, then the other office go around, count, and then you all combine your numbers at the end. You combine your numbers at the end of each tier. And then you tally up the numbers at the end. Most people write them down on a piece of paper, on your hand, back of a count slip-. It could be a number of different various where people write them down. But one person go arounds count, the next¶
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MR. THOMAS: Um, how do you explain internal? Um. The guy that-. The staff member that rides up the elevator and at the end of the day you collect five security sheets, round sheets, and all - a bunch of different paperwork and you take-.¶
MR. : Is internal like a part of control?¶
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two because it used to be one at one time, but you have the control center. And then another person in there um and the person is called C&A. And you would call them and they have a um, a sheet that they call for the count. That they verify for the count.¶
MR. THOMAS: No-no. It’s just one -. No- no. No. They just say one base count of the whole SHU.¶
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MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I’ve seen them do it before. I’ve seen them just come. Some will count a unit for you from time-to-time.¶
MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I don’t know of any¶
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the counts at the time that they were called in. Correct? Because you’ve got to provide the count slip.¶
MR. THOMAS: Like I said, just exhausted. Most of the time, as you can see by my monthly, I do a lot of overtime. Like I said. Again, I’m usually the internal. I do prefer internal. But as you can see, I do SHU quite a bit as well. And it’s just something that just happened. Um. It’s really no easy way of putting it. It’s just something that just happened.¶
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MR. THOMAS: No. Like -. I mean like I said, no one’s perfect and everything like that. But I could say I’ve done - I usually get up and do a round. Just walk around and everything like that. And it shows that I walked around and everything like that. But it’s not very often that I just said, fuck it. Excuse my language. That I just disregard my jobs and my duties. It’s definitely not often at all.¶
MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I did. It’s - I’m sure it’s happened in the past. Like I said, I’m not going sit up and say I’m perfect. I get everything on the dot - bullet that. But I try to get as most of it like that. Sometimes you have bad days. Sometimes you have good days.¶
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MR. THOMAS: Same thing. You get as many as rounds as you can. I don’t know what’s the number of if it’s 7, 10, or 12 or whatever the case of the number it is. But you do get the rounds in and everything. Even if you get them done. If you don’t get them done by every half an hour, you know what I mean. I’ve done them every hour one time. You know just being exhausted.¶
MR. THOMAS: But I do get some done and like I said, this particular time I guess I didn’t get anything done.¶
MR. : Now is - does it have anything to do with like being the 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. shift? You know, why do they have three separate counts at that time? Is there a-?¶
MR. THOMAS: That’s an institution thing.¶
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MR. : Is that when inmates like typically try to harm themselves? Is that why they’re done more often from that time?¶
MR. THOMAS: It’s actually changed. Before the count was done at 9:45. Now it’s done at 10:00. Like it’s -. I don’t know the particular reason why. That’s just standard BOP protocol since I’ve been there. To just make those counts.¶
MR. : Okay. DO you know of other staff members that are also entering on these - their slip counts and rounds that they’re not -?¶
MR. THOMAS: I don’t know what other staff members do. I’m locked in wherever. If I’m on internal or if I’m on the (Indiscernible *02:05:17). If I’m on one unit, I don’t know what another housing unit is doing.¶
MR. : Sure. So you mentioned that there were certainly were other times that you didn’t do counts or rounds. So obviously I’m assuming you weren’t always working with Noel. Correct?¶
MR. THOMAS: Yes. I wasn’t always working with Noel.¶
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their name because they did more overtime than others. So if they - sometimes you could just be tired. Sometimes it doesn’t have to be a conversation. Somebody just didn’t bother you and you just did the round at all. I’m -.¶
MR. : Do you almost like wait for someone to take the initiative and if they don’t take the initiative, you both just kind sit there?¶
MR. THOMAS: No. No. Like I said, it just -. It could happen in any different variable way. You know what I mean? But most the time, I would say most of those guys in there do their counts.¶
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MR. : Like as far as so like this is what I’m noticing as a difference. These cells look like they’re all the same aside from here. It looks like there’s visiting activity. And then here it says kitchen area. And here it has this area. So by looking at that are you able to tell what’s the first and what’s the second? So I’m noticing the difference between this and this.¶
MR. THOMAS: Right. Yeah. Okay. This¶
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MR. THOMAS: I don’t know how to explain it. It’s not two floors like that because then you would say it’s three floors. Because when you go down - you go down the steps into one. And you just go up the stairs but it’s all in one area.¶
MR. THOMAS: And this all would be nine. And then all this would be seven. But right here, you’ll go down and then you’ll go up. But it’s still all on the same floor.¶
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inside the SHU. Yes. Because some -.¶
MR. : Is there always two people required to be in the SHU at all times? Can there ever be one person left alone in the SHU?¶
MR. THOMAS: I’ve seen when it’s been one person, but it’s -. If I’m not mistaken, it’s required for us to be I think a minimum of two.¶
MR. : Okay. So if you need to actually leave the SHU during that shift when there’s only two people there, what do you do? If two people are supposed to be there, do you have to call and see if someone else can come replace you? Or is it -?¶
MR. THOMAS: Um… Uh…if you’re talking about like for emergencies, maybe of course somebody has to replace you and maybe they might be - could be just short-handed and you just left alone. But I know sometimes we used to have to count next door. We used to go count um, nine - the 9th floor. So it just varies.¶
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the door?¶
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a. m., approximately what time was Epstein discovered? Do you think like a minute went by? Two minutes? Three minutes? Five minutes?¶
MR. THOMAS: The - I can’t tell you the exact time, but I know whenever I popped -. Because I don’t know what time the food cart came. The food cart came up. I don’t remember if we set up all the tiers first or we set it up just -. That took us -. Usually how I do is I set up all the tiers and then I come back to the first tier and then I put it on. I don’t remember if I did so or not. But when I got to this particular -. When I got to his cell, I got there, I came with the food. I put them all on the walking food cart that’s there that you put - that you could take. Let’s say it was 15 inmates up there that you take. Usually in the morning there’s two trays. I walked up there. I had it all set up so if the food cart. I don’t know who was one. Certain people, food cart come up early, some people the food cart come up late. If the food cart came up early, let’s say by the time I discovered - by the time I would let’s say if I¶
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MR. THOMAS: Probably when I did my count. Like when you’re talking about we actually fed right when I did my count that night. The night prior. The night when I did morning watch.¶
MR. □: Alright. So you wouldn’t have seen him when -. Did you feed him?¶
MR. THOMAS: I’m sure I did the feeding.¶
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MR. : Was she near you? Was she on the same tier? Do you know if she was like somewhere else?¶
MR. THOMAS: I don’t -. She -. I really can’t recall. I don’t know. To just be specific I really don’t know where she was standing. If she was standing at the grill or if she was standing at the base. I really couldn’t -. I really don’t remember.¶
MR. : When you’re feeding the inmates, is she typically near you?¶
MR. THOMAS: No. She doesn’t have to be. She could like I said, it all depends on how that day. Like I said, we both were tired. She could have been setting up the rest of the tiers. If I didn’t set up the tiers. So until I yelled for that help, that’s the minute. And when I yelled for that help, she reacted to my yell.¶
MR. : Do you -? When you yelled for help, do you remember ever seeing her? Making sure she knew?¶
MR. THOMAS: I really can’t recall.¶
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off. He fell to the floor. You then moved him to the ground. What was he wearing at the time? Do you remember?¶
like that? Or he still had his clothes on?¶
MR. THOMAS: He wasn’t naked. He wasn’t naked. He still had a -. I’m going to say he -. I want to say he had a jumper on. He had his jumper how they have – it’s not all the way up to the top right there, but it’s like around the waist. So maybe he had pants on. I do remember he wasn’t totally naked.¶
MR. THOMAS: And he wasn’t in his boxer shorts or anything like that. But he was just and he had a - he had no shirt on. He didn’t have a shirt on.¶
MR. : He didn’t have a shirt on. Alright. Was there -? You said this was still around his neck. When he fell off did that come away from his neck?¶
MR. THOMAS: Yeah. He didn’t have anything around his neck when he came up. Yeah.¶
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MR. THOMAS: Well he didn’t -. I don’t really want to say dead or alive. But he was -I was doing chest compressions. I mean I’m not a doctor so anything like that but I just know I just kept going. I don’t know if he was dead or anything at that time.¶
MR. : Did you notice if he had like did you check for a pulse or anything like that?¶
MR. THOMAS: The doctor was there. I know when I was doing chest compressions I didn’t stop to check for a pulse. The - I let the medical staff do that because it was somebody from medical doing that.¶
MR. : So how did you know to do chest compressions if you didn’t -.¶
MR. THOMAS: I mean, I don’t know if somebody look like they not breathing or anything like that, he’s not talking, I’m yelling out his name, he’s not —¶
MR. : Yeah.¶
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MR. THOMAS: Prior to CPR the standard model is check for airways and everything like that. But in the course of the moment, I didn’t slow down and say let me see I check for responsiveness. And that’s exactly what I did.¶
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MR. : Um. Alright. So after medical emergency called, what -? Walk me through that a little bit in detail. What happened? So he came. The medical person comes in. He starts going chest compressions. About how long is he doing them?¶
MR. THOMAS: I don’t know. I don’t know how long he was doing them before he put the AED on. I couldn’t tell you how long he was on before he actually put the AED. Because the AED - right on the -. Right - you see the one right there. In SHU. I know there’s one right there on the 9th floor. So I don’t know how long ago that he was doing chest compressions¶
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It was three years ago. But -.¶
MR. : Alright. So my only question was so that’s the statement we have is that you stated she said we didn’t do the rounds. And you said we didn’t do the rounds. We messed up. It’s not Noel’s fault. And I was just wondering why you would say that it wasn’t her fault.¶
MR. THOMAS: Just uttering things like I said. I don’t remember saying that. I don’t remember not saying it. I don’t remember when that was said or who said that I said that. Like I said I don’t remember saying that.¶
MR. : Okay. So it wasn’t like-. The only reason that I asked is that, it sounds like you were taking responsibility for the rounds and counts. And I was just wanting to know if there was a reason why you would have been taking responsibility. Like we said,¶
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MR. : Alright. Is that something that you guys are supposed to monitor or do when you’re in the SHU during your assignment? Are you supposed to make sure that inmates are in their assigned cells?¶
MR. THOMAS: When I come on at 12:00, that’s all taken care of from - you don’t move anybody at 12:00 at midnight.¶
MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I just didn’t know if that’s something that you guys are supposed to like pay attention to. Like alright, this guys is supposed to be in this cell. This guy’s supposed to be in that cell.¶
MR. THOMAS: It’s 70-something inmates or something. If 15 inmates come down on short staff and they got to move, maybe all 15 won’t get done, so maybe somebody is in a 21-day rotation, they’re probably laid over for like five or whatever couple days. But I don’t know as far as you’re going by cell rotation and oh his cell rotations is up 21 days and he wasn’t¶
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that’s from the previous inmate that’s left over that they didn’t take his stuff. like again, I don’t know.¶
MR. THOMAS: The inmate that left, they didn’t take his linen or not. And you can’t tell from these pictures which is ripped up and what is not ripped up is. Most inmates will get a bed sheet, rip it up, and put it up as all types of stuff that goes on. But I don’t know if that’s something doing or not. It has to be broken down to alright, this is seven sheets. And if I have seven sheets or something like that then yes that’s excessive. But other than that, I don’t know what they’re supposed to have within - what they’re not supposed to have, one sheet, one -. I really don’t know.¶
MR. : Is it supposed to be a one-for-one exchange?¶
MR. THOMAS: Yes. It’s a one-for-one exchange.¶
MR. : So they’re only technically supposed to have one -.¶
MR. THOMAS: It’s two sheets one blanket I¶
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MR. THOMAS: That’s not something that happens on morning watch. That’s something that happens prior to the morning watch when I stayed there from 12:00 to 1:00.¶
And I don’t know and you don’t give them anything unless somebody’s coming in off the street. It’s already pre-bed was made that you’re giving to them to put this over here. And usually they try to put them on G tier, single cell until they can find out what their affiliation is or anything like that.¶
MR. : Okay. But to you though, if there’s one person in that cell, does that look like it’s too much linen and too much¶
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looks like there’s a portion left back on here.¶
MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm.¶
MR. : Was that attached to this?¶
MR. THOMAS: I don’t -. like he said, he said that was the portion that -. like I said, when I remember ripping all that down, I don’t know if I just if it slipped through or whatever the case may be. I just remember going like this and he going to the ground. And then we started doing chest compressions.¶
MR. □: And he came off easily?¶
MR. THOMAS: Yes he came off easily. It didn’t come off too hard.¶
MR. □: And you don’t recall trying to -?¶
MR. THOMAS: I don’t recall taking the noose off. I really don’t. I don’t recall taking the thing from around his neck.¶
MR. : Do you remember if the linen ripped so it’s separated from this or if this is possibly the same thing as that? Do you recall when you ripped it. Do you remember if it like tore and broke and came into two separate pieces?¶
MR. THOMAS: I don’t.¶
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MR. THOMAS: I don’t know.¶
MR. : Can you tell me a little bit about cell searches and how they work in the SHU?¶
MR. THOMAS: Um… They usually conduct it on the day shift. Because that’s when most people are around just in case you have an uncooperative inmate. And you check the cell for contraband. Contraband can be anywhere from a leftover tray being in there to too much papers. Inmates who get mail, too many papers left in there which is called nuisance trash.¶
MR. : Okay.¶
MR. THOMAS: But it all depends on anybody else. Who is conducting it.¶
MR. : And this isn’t regarding your specific shift. I mean it discussed your shift, but for cell searches this shows it’s the MCC New York Special Post Order Special Housing Unit. For here it says, “All SHU staff are expected to conduct searches of the special housing unit. The morning watch officer will conduct searches of the common areas and document their findings in the search section of the TruScape program. The day watch¶
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officers will conduct a search of every inmate’s cell who attends recreation. The evening watch officers will conduct a minimum of five cell searches during their shift. The entire special housing unit will be searched each and every week.” Um, do you know, is that your understanding of what the policy is?¶
MR. : Do you know if the other - if MCC was following this policy? The officers that were assigned. Were they actually conducting — ?¶
MR. THOMAS: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.¶
MR. : Um do you have any knowledge of anybody conducting cell searches in the SHU?¶
MR. THOMAS: I’m sure that they do. like I said, I’m not custody up there during the day and during the evening, so I don’t know what their - what time and no specific time when those have to be done. So I don’t know.¶
MR. : Alright. And again, just because I showed it to you. Do you mind just initialing page 5 of 14 on the uh special post¶
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MR. THOMAS: Yes, I’ve heard that. I’ve heard that before. But then I’ve always heard¶
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Let’s just say you guys were both asleep at one point.¶
MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm.¶
MR. : For a couple of hours. Would she have filled it up - signed those sheets before or after? Because she would not have committed those - she wouldn’t have done those rounds. Did you ever see her pull those round sheets out and initial them?¶
MR. THOMAS: No. I really wasn’t paying attention to what she was doing. I really don’t remember.¶
MR. : Have you ever worked in the SHU with Noel before?¶
MR. THOMAS: It’s possible. I don’t know - I don’t really remember. Maybe I have. I don’t really remember. It’s possible, but like I said, I don’t know.¶
MR. : Okay. The reason I ask is that if you’ve never worked with Noel before, and you said that most of the times you do the rounds and the counts.¶
MR. □: Would it have been kind of awkward that both of you guys sat down, didn’t¶
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discuss the fact you’re not going to do the counts, didn’t discuss the fact you’re not going to do the rounds, and just sat down, slept, and - you know, went on the computer. But no one spoke about the facts but someone between both of you guys, you initialed the round - the count slips and also the round sheets?¶
MR. THOMAS: Speaking of, I don’t believe that we had any conversations. I don’t really remember any conversations that we had or anything like that. There are some things that are just not spoken about. It could have been - like I said, I was exhausted. Hey, listen, I did whatever-whatever. And she did whatever-whatever. And that was it.¶
MR. □□: Does it mean -?¶
MR. THOMAS: There wasn’t no -.¶
MR. □□: If you worked with her in the past, does that mean you guys did the same thing in the past?¶
MR. THOMAS: No.¶
MR. □□: And just knew that -?¶
MR. THOMAS: No, it doesn’t mean that.¶
Absolutely not.¶
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MR. : Okay. So and again, if we go back to actually the video and check to see if you’re doing the counts, is that - again, and I’m only saying this because I was to just remind you you’re under oath.¶
MR. THOMAS: I understand.¶
MR. : And this is where that we can bring this back up to like -.¶
MR. THOMAS: I totally understand. If you go back to the video, you will see that you’ll catch me doing my rounds or you’ll catch me doing my counts. Like I said, then that’s when I said whereas I’m not perfect. Like I said 95. Maybe one oh hold up you know he didn’t do this one. An hour went by but he did it at an hour and one minute. So then technically, by the paperwork that I didn’t do it every half an hour. Correct? If I do it over every hour, technically by the paperwork I didn’t do a half an hour round I did an hour round.¶
MR. : But you would have to still certify that you did it every half hour.¶
MR. THOMAS: No, you don’t have to certify that you did every half hour. I don’t believe that it has to be. If you write on that paper¶
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it at - I did a fast round. I did it from 12:52 to 12:59. The round is still conducted. But even though the last though, you’re caught up in the -. I understand because it’s in black and white. It’s not just done just like that. It can be done at any given time as long as the round is conducted. It doesn’t have to be -. By policy it’s supposed to be in the 30-minute block. That’s when you’re talking policy. But -.¶
MR. THOMAS: 30 to 40 minute block but like I say, if I did it at 12:10 and did it at 12:40 and then right here I wanted to just because I wanted to get a round done, I conduct it at 12:52 to 12:59, it’s still within that block. It’s still conducted.¶
MR. : Well that’s conducting a around. Correct. But what I thought you said it was like you might not do it for a whole hour.¶
MR. THOMAS: But that - but I’m -. Excuse me, I apologize. That’s a 12:10 to 12:40 to 12:42, I’m saying that’s an hour. Because that’s pretty much - we’ve got 20 minutes - 10¶
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MR. Because you’re talking about one to two, that’s a whole hour. And we’re not talking about within 30 minutes.¶
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have to document it one round every 30 minutes, so you can only then fill out one of these blocks. Which one are you going to fill out? Or are you going to do the e same thing in an identical place - 12:09, 12:09?¶
MR. THOMAS: Well that’s up to the person.¶
MR. : But what you’re saying is that if you did it at 12:25 and ended at 12:35, that covered those 30 minutes.¶
MR. THOMAS: No, you still put that in the one block. You’re being - if I did it from 12:25 and at 12:30, I would still put that in that one block. And then this next one, whatever the time is, like I said 12:41. And then 12:00 to 12:42 because remember, this is just a tier. This is not the whole round. This is just a tier. So what you’re saying is¶
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some but not a lot. When I say falsified, you wrote in that you conducted them, but they weren’t actually conducted.¶
MR. THOMAS: No. That’s not what I’m saying. I wrote that - I wrote that I wrote in my rounds.¶
MR. THOMAS: You know what I mean. I don’t want to sit up here that I’m 100% perfect. What I’m saying is that I did my - I’m usually spot on with doing my rounds and doing what I’m supposed to do as far as the course of my job.¶
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review these things.¶
MR. THOMAS: I’ll tell you that I’m saying that I should have gotten most of my rounds and if I didn’t get them all done. I’m not trying to lie and say I didn’t.¶
MR. MITCHELL: Can we - can I -? Can we go outside for a second?¶
MR. Absolutely we can take time out. It is currently 2:13 p.m. This is Senior Special Agent (Indiscernible *03:43:57) and we are taking a quick break. [Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record and went back on the record.] Alright, the recorder is back on. It is currently 2:18 p.m. on June 17, 2021. Again everyone is present aside from - I don’t not believe the other attorney is on the phone right now. And Mr. Thomas, I remind you again this is voluntary and you are under oath. Is there anything that you would like to add with regard to the rounds and the counts that you have conducted and certified in the past prior to August 10, 2019?¶
MR. THOMAS: That I have not completed all my rounds. That’s it.¶
MR. : What about your counts¶
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CERTIFICATE¶
I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of:¶
Interview of MICHAEL THOMAS¶
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