DOJ OIG interview transcript with an MCC New York captain about Epstein's custody

EFTA00111830¶

EFTA00111831¶

EFTA00111832¶

EFTA00111833¶

MR. : Yeah. Right.¶

MR. : So, it says, “In Brooklyn.” I missed this line. It says,¶

“Where he was made Deputy Captain in 2015. In 2018, was promoted to Captain at MCC, his current position, where he oversees security for the entire building.”¶

MR. : Well, yeah. There was a little bit missing there because, yeah, I entered on duty, and I started my career in Florence. However, I left Florence in 2009. And that’s when I went to Pollock. FCC Pollock.¶

MR. : Okay. So, they have - yes - so, I guess you were transferred to the MDC in Brooklyn, 2014, and in 2015 was when you were promoted to Deputy Captain?¶

MR. : And then, from FCC Pollock, from 2009, I was there to 2014. And then, from ‘14, I left Pollock to go to MDC Brooklyn. And then, in ‘18, that’s when I assumed duties at MCC.¶

MR. ___: “Among others, ___ is responsible for the following: Special Housing Unit Lieutenant, Lieutenant ___.” Is that correct? ___¶

MR. : “As an Administrative Lieutenant, responsible for maintaining paperwork, et cetera.” So, when you say an Administrative Lieutenant here, are you saying whoever was Acting in the Administrative Lieutenant -directly supervises approximately 13 Lieutenants.” Does that compromise of all the Lieutenants? This was at the time. Was that all the Lieutenants at the MCC?¶

MR. : No, I wasn’t. Basically, Administrative duties. The Administrative duties falls under the appointed SHU Lieutenant. The SHU Lieutenant, the appointed SHU Lieutenant has certain duties that have to be done daily, within the unit. Not just the supervision of the line staff that work the unit, but also over all on running of the Unit. Meaning, that ensuring that all paperwork is done.¶

MR. : Correct.¶

MR. : Okay. “And it has approximately 125 to 135 line staff/Correctional Officers under his purview.”¶

MR. : Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, you know, when they say that, what they understand is, is that, under Correctional Services, that was probably the amount of staff that was - again - in Correctional Services, as subordinate staff. However, my direct supervision would have been over just the 13 Lieutenants.¶

MR. : Okay. There are 13 - oh, 13 Lieutenants. Right. I thought you were saying GS-13. Gotcha. “also sits on the Institution’s Executive Staff, which also includes the Warden. primary duty is to ensure that security protocols are met by his Lieutenants and sub-staff, and that policy guidelines are being followed, as set forth by the BOP.”¶

MR. : All security protocols are followed. To ensure that inmates - or run rosters - to ensure that inmates are placed in the correct cells, or in the proper cells. To ensure that they’re supposed to audit said rosters, to ensure they have proper accountability of the inmates in the unit.¶

MR. : So, I guess what I was getting at is, like, how the SHU Lieutenant was. Was there a specific person that was the Administrative Lieutenant?¶

MR. : Yes. The Administrative Lieutenant at that time was .¶

MR. : And do you happen to know how to spell that last name?¶

MR. : It’s .¶

MR. : Thank you, sir. “An SIS Lieutenant responsible for paperwork.” And who was that?¶

MR. : Which was the Lieutenant (Phonetic Sp. *00:17:10).¶

MR. : And , common spelling?¶

MR. : Yes.¶

MR. : Okay. “And Operations In¶

EFTA00111834¶

EFTA00111835¶

EFTA00111836¶

EFTA00111837¶

EFTA00111838¶

EFTA00111839¶

Joaquin Guzman that was up there, the terrorist king pin, drug king pin. He couldn’t go on a general population unit.¶

MR. : Sure.¶

MR. : He would go - normally, guys like that would be in places where I come from, before, you know, like Florence.¶

MR. : Okay.¶

MR. : He would be at the ADX (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:19). Apopov (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:21). I believe that - Apopov - I think that was his name, Apopov or Sopopov (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:25). These guys had made terrorist threats against the United States, or there was guys up there that had materials, or that was found in cooperation with outside Agencies that was trying to determent of (Indiscernible *00:34:43), and cause harm to the United States. These kind of guys was put in that unit.¶

MR. : Sure.¶

MR. : Guys you wouldn’t want in the general population because —¶

MR. : Yeah.¶

MR. : — of their recruitment¶

MR. : Okay. “advised that Epstein preferred not to have a cell mate and engaged in manipulative behavior to avoid having one.” What type of behavior did he -?¶

MR. : I believe that Epstein and -when he first came in - he was doing self-manipulative behavior. You know, he was showing passive resistant activity, as far as, you know, when they’re taking meals, or wouldn’t listen to staff, as far as when they’re giving him direction. You know, he would sit in his cell, and he wouldn’t talk. You know, I believe he wasn’t taking meals at one point. He was refusing to take showers. Things of those that nature.¶

MR. : And the sentence continues, including requesting to see a Psychologist.¶

MR. : Yeah.¶

MR. : Is that part of it?¶

MR. : Yes.¶

MR. : Okay. Did he say why he wanted to see a Psychologist?¶

MR. : I don’t know.¶

MR. : No?¶

value, or their radical ability they could be able to do - have recruitment value for, you know, for other inmates in the general population. You don’t want those guys in there.¶

MR. : Yeah.¶

MR. : But Jeffrey Epstein, you know, he’s a multi-billionaire.¶

MR. : Sure. Now, as far as Ten South. Is that one inmate per cell?¶

MR. : Yes.¶

MR. : And video monitored at all times?¶

MR. : Yes.¶

MR. : Okay. So, it’s like your maximum security type?¶

MR. : That would be the highest security that an inmate at MCC would be placed in.¶

MR. : Okay.¶

MR. : Yeah. Could be placed in. Yeah.¶

MR. : But the executive team never discussed that?¶

MR. : No.¶

MR. : Remember that, no.¶

MR. : Sure. “At Epstein’s request, he was interviewed by a Psychologist.”¶

Do you know who he made that request to? Would it have been SHU staff?¶

MR. : He probably would have made those requests to any of the staff that may have been monitoring him at that time. Because if he was placed on psychological observation at that time, psychological observation, you would have had to have a staff person that sat there and monitored the inmate. Another inmate couldn’t have monitored him.¶

MR. : Okay. And that, is that, like, 24/7?¶

MR. : That would have been 24 hours of that. Seven days a week.¶

MR. : So, a staff member is just —¶

MR. : Right.¶

MR. : — would just sit there and watch him?¶

MR. : Correct.¶

MR. : Communicate with him, or no?¶

EFTA00111840¶

EFTA00111841¶

EFTA00111842¶

EFTA00111843¶

EFTA00111844¶

EFTA00111845¶

EFTA00111846¶

1. them for court line. These guys got released.

2. So, normally, court line is over before 4:00.

3. So we try to get these guys up. Do some inmates come back after 4:00? Yes, they do.

4. But however, we don’t know if an inmate goes out to court, if they’re coming back.

5. MR. : Sure.

6. MR. : However, there is times when they put out a roster, and it’s given to - as far as all Correctional Officers that work the units, and it will say, court line, inmate Reyes - using him as an example - WAB. That means that he has to come downstairs with all belongings. So, if they say it, that means he’s not coming back. That’s either he’s transferring to another BOP facility, or he’s going to be released to the street.

7. MR. : Okay.

8. MR. : But I can guarantee you that that transfer or that roster, that inmate Reyes was on that day, it didn’t say WAB. Because it would have said WAB, the first thing that that OJC should have said, that’s my orange tag guy. Because I made them do all the orange tag guys, and I made them put them up on the board.

9. get across to us, as me, as the Captain, to when I disseminated down to the subordinate staff, this is another inmate. Who cares about what his charges are?

10. MR. : Sure.

11. MR. : Or since he’s sensationalized in the media. Nobody cares.

12. MR. : Of course.

13. MR. : We’re going to manage him appropriately. Because if you know anything about jails, and the BOP, especially Brooklyn and MCC, we don’t run those jails. The court runs those jails.

14. MR. : Right.

15. MR. : So, and that’s the truth, the court, the Judges, whatever the Judge says goes. So, and that’s unfortunate, but that’s neither here nor there. So, Mr. wanted the staff to say no, this is the inmate, yeah, he has certain charges, but we’re going to make sure he gets everything that all the inmates get when they come to MCC. The inmates are going to get proper care. The inmate is going to get showers. The inmate is going to be fed. Whatever it may be. But however, after those

16. Epstein is that orange tag guy. He’s supposed to have a cellie. WAB. Oh. Cap. SHU

17. Lieutenant wasn’t there. But he would have called me directly. God. Hey, so and so don’t have a cell.

18. MR. : Yeah. So, how long did it take to vet? You know, I know you said you started it with ten, and then it brought down to three, and then the Regional Director ultimately decided the one. But how long does that process take?

19. MR. : I believe it took - I’m thinking we did it for - we did a day. It took a day.

20. MR. : Okay.

21. MR. : I mean, we actually went - and, you know, I don’t know - I know either the Warden and I was having a lengthy conversations, because the Warden wanted to ensure - Warden philosophy when dealing with Mr. Epstein was this; he’s another inmate.

22. MR. : Mm-hmm.

23. MR. : And what he tried to try to get across to exec staff, and what he tried to

24. situations with Epstein where it showed that his behavior was manipulative, when it shows that he was trying to get things for unnecessary gain. Or he would do anything to get anything that would benefit him, he had to take some different protocols. We had to take a different - they had to take a different — approach.

25. MR. : — mindset with this guy, or the way we managed him had to change. Because we already had this guy saying that he was going to be killed, and all of this stuff, or whatever. So, we just wanted to make sure, moving forward, we put protocols in place that will protect us, as an Agency.

26. MR. : So, speaking of protocols, was it discussed, then, when you were vetting them, he, we have inmates constantly moving out of here, if Reyes is moved, one of these other two that were down to the three would be moved in with him? Was that discussed?

27. MR. : No. He would just basically - because like I said, again, at MCC, you wouldn’t know how long the duration on the

EFTA00111847¶

EFTA00111848¶

because that’s the one I work. Evening watch,¶

I stay over late. I walk up there. Hey guys,¶

this is the situation. Let’s make sure that,¶

you know, we’re paying attention. And then,¶

morning watch, of course.¶

MR. : Okay.¶

MR. : So -.¶

MR. : So, beginning at 8:00¶

a.m., then, on August 9th, can you just look to¶

who - and name the people - can you just name¶

who was in the SHU, and if you’ve ever had a¶

conversation with them, if they were aware.¶

MR. : Okay. Let me see here.¶

Well, we had . I’ve talked to .¶

Perry Joiner (Phonetic Sp. *01:08:06). He was¶

in there. . was one of the guys¶

that was up there as a Rec Officer.¶

MR. : So, all —¶

MR. : Him.¶

MR. : — all of those people¶

were, you had conversations —¶

MR. : Yes.¶

MR. : — specifically with¶

them, and they know?¶

MR. : I’ve talked with these guys.¶

but it’s less labor intensive.¶

MR. : Okay.¶

MR. : Because, in my opinion, from when I worked Special Housing, Special Housing was always hard work because I’m going to tell you why. You have to be vigilant. And when I mean vigilant, you have to understand, when you’re working that Unit, anything can happen.¶

It could be quiet. But guess what? If you’re not walking, looking in those cells, testing the Security protocols. Meaning, making sure the flaps are closed. Making sure the doors are locked. You want to know that, in SHU, sometimes doors was unlocked.¶

MR. : Mm-hmm.¶

MR. : Or flaps opened. To chase doors, those —¶

MR. : What is a flap?¶

MR. : — the Food Service flap.¶

MR. : Okay. Sure.¶

MR. : You know? Making rounds.¶

Making sure the inmates are not - have coverings up when you open up the - what do you call it?¶

MR. : The window?¶

MR. : The windows or putting a towel over their beds, and blocking the light from you being able to observe them.¶

MR. : But then, how —¶

MR. : And what I said about —¶

MR. : but how —.¶

MR. : — but I want to go back because I know about the statement, about the doors being left open. I’m talking about more in general population, as far as when you’re making rounds, those type of things, you test. Making sure the door is secure. Making sure the food slots are secure.¶

MR. : Mm-hmm.¶

MR. : As an Officer coming up, even as a Lieutenant, do you know that I’ve actually walked in a Unit and pulled on the door that’s supposed to be secure, and its inmate is wide open?¶

MR. : Wow. Ever at the MCC?¶

MR. : No. Because that wasn’t my capacity.¶

MR. : Sure.¶

MR. : That wasn’t my job. But as a Line Officer subordinate, and also when I was a¶

EFTA00111849¶

EFTA00111850¶

EFTA00111851¶

EFTA00111852¶

EFTA00111853¶

EFTA00111854¶

EFTA00111855¶

EFTA00111856¶

EFTA00111857¶

EFTA00111858¶

EFTA00111859¶

EFTA00111860¶

EFTA00111861¶

EFTA00111862¶

EFTA00111863¶

EFTA00111864¶

EFTA00111865¶

EFTA00111866¶

EFTA00111867¶

EFTA00111868¶

EFTA00111869¶

EFTA00111870¶

EFTA00111871¶

MR. : — besides the inmate - it’s three things - an inmate died, your count being off, or an inmate escaping. Those are the big things right there. If your count is bad because that’s what we get paid to do - we’re the masters of count, that’s what we do, accountability of inmates, in a Correctional setting. That’s what you do. That’s what you’re paid for. So, you call me, as a Lieutenant, and you tell me, hey, LT., we keep counting the unit, and the unit, and the count is bad. So, the next thing I’m going to tell you, give me some staff up there. I want a standup bed book.¶

MR. : So, if they say that —¶

MR. : — so then, I’m going to identify each inmate by their face, and their cell assignment, to get the count.¶

MR. : So, what if they say, we’re off by one, but we know where that one is? That one is over there. And then, the Lieutenant responds —¶

MR. : But they know —¶

MR. : — all right, I’m going to go verify where that one staff is, you redo¶

EFTA00111872¶

EFTA00111873¶

EFTA00111874¶

EFTA00111875¶

EFTA00111876¶

EFTA00111877¶

EFTA00111878¶

EFTA00111879¶

EFTA00111880¶

EFTA00111881¶

EFTA00111882¶

EFTA00111883¶

EFTA00111884¶

EFTA00111885¶

EFTA00111886¶

EFTA00111887¶

EFTA00111888¶

EFTA00111889¶

EFTA00111890¶

EFTA00111891¶

1 to 6:00, she should have done a round in SHU. There was no rounds. All of the rounds were done from the Lieutenant’s Office. MR. : Well, if she did - I think we do believe that she did conduct a round at 4:00 a.m. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, she actually physically went into the SHU at 4:00 a.m. — MR. : Okay. MR. : — and spoke with them. And then, potentially even came back, and checked in a little while later. UNKNOWN MALE: Dude, it’s been a while. I got a little busy. MR. : Thank you, sir. And so, if she did one time, at the 4:00 a.m., possibly another check-in ten or 15 minutes later, would that be sufficed for whatever her duty and responsibility was? MR. : Well, that means, if you sat there and you did all your rounds, so, I did all of my rounds at the computer office. MR. : And never went — MR. : In the computer¶

1 (Indiscernible *01:32:56). MR. : — and she never - she was supposed to go to the Control Center, and actually do the counts from there, right? MR. : Well, you’re supposed to take - yeah - one of the counts. So, normally, we would take the 3:45 count or the 5:00. Either one. You could take one of the counts. It don’t matter which one you take. You’ve just got to take one. The 12:00, the 3:00, or the 5:00. Right? You’ve got to take a count. You’ve got to go through, go do a round in SHU. A round in SHU. So, you have to go, actually, go physically to the unit. And then, you’re supposed to do rounds throughout the entire institution. So, if I’m at the Lieutenant’s desk, and I say that all my rounds was done from this one terminal, because you’re actually supposed to go in, I provide it in card readers. MR. : So, they’re supposed to - when they do a round there - so, they’re supposed to log it in from the unit? MR. : From that terminal. MR. : Okay.¶

251 MR. : So, that means they can go on a floor, and they don’t have to go log into both computers on the floor, as long as you log into one on the floor, you’re good. That’s the policy. MR. : And is that just to show that they are physically there, and they’re not — MR. : Yeah. MR. : — falsifying the rounds? MR. : There is. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, you just can’t sit at the desk, and say, I did all the rounds. MR. : I’m going to investigate the (Indiscernible *01:34:05) of what the Lieutenant rounds entails. MR. : You can ask again, if you want. Go ahead. (Indiscernible *01:34:09). MR. : I don’t remember if you did. I apologize if you answered it already. When a Lieutenant has to do a round in a - let’s say any tier - and let’s say the SHU, what does that entail? What (Indiscernible *01:34:19)? MR. : They’re supposed to go door¶

252 by door, just like I explained to you before. You’re supposed to go in the unit, go on the tier, and you’re supposed to walk and look at every cell. MR. : And what’d he saying, he just - to clarify - he wants to make sure it’s the Lieutenants that are also supposed to do that. MR. : Yes. MR. : Not just the staff. And is that - and again, for clarification, I apologize, but it’s so much, we’ve got to dissect, you know, we’re going to have to digest what you told us, and listen to it again - but is it every shift, a Lieutenant should do that? MR. : Yes. Every shift, in the 24-hour period, hands have to be conducted by a Lieutenant. In SHU. MR. : And so, if Lieutenants are telling us that they don’t think that that’s part of their duties, they’re supposed to do just rounds — MR. : They’re wrong. MR. : — of staff, and is that¶

EFTA00111892¶

EFTA00111893¶

EFTA00111894¶

EFTA00111895¶

EFTA00111896¶

EFTA00111897¶

Then he wouldn’t have gotten - been able to speak to the female person that answered the phone. No.¶

MR. : According to the records, I think Epstein mentioned he wanted to speak to his mother.¶

MR. : Is there, like, a list that they need to go by, or just Epstein would provide the number, and that was it?¶

MR. : Basically, inmates are supposed to supply certain people their supposed to call. So, like, on their phone list, there’s certain people that we vet, that the inmates can call. So, normally, it’s, like, over in - a religious person, your immediate family members, a girlfriend, a wife, a spouse, children, stuff like that, past or whatever. But then, legally, if your legal contact or your Attorney, it’s different. You know, you can - that’s a totally different type of call. Outside of what the inmates get. Like, if they pick up the commissary phone, and¶

MR. : Okay. So, what would have happened is, if he would have been released - because she would put that out. So, if the inmate was being released from suicide watch, prior for him being released from suicide watch, that would have went to the exec staff, that would have went to the SHU OIC, the Operations Lieutenant, to inform him that he needs - before place him in SHU - he needs to have an appropriate cell mate. Not a vetted one. Just someone because of what the SHU policy says, that an inmate must have a cell mate.¶

try to call, it’s only going to allow them to call those numbers off of the phone list.¶

MR. : Okay, but it’s on —¶

MR. : But it doesn’t say a vetted cell mate. It doesn’t say all these protocols.¶

But with her, that’s a general statement that¶

MR. : You know what I’m saying? The proof form is the green form. But over here, they say, well, I need to speak to my Attorney. Okay, I’ll give you the Attorney call. But if that was the case, he could have been afforded or given, if he was calling his mother, if he had time on the books, because he went back to his cell prior to - I think the cell, the SHU, the cell, the phones in SHU cut off at 9:00 p.m. I’m not certain. I can’t remember. He could have called his mother at that time. And we wouldn’t have had to facilitate the call. He could have called her right from the thing.¶

MR. : Okay. And the last question is, if the order came from Psych, right? - It was just a question - if the order came from Psych, that Epstein needed a cell mate, should they have come down to the Unit and made sure¶

would be made for any suicide watch inmate coming off of suicide watch.¶

MR. : Oh so, she sent that e-mail?¶

MR. : That’s it, if you pull up any other e-mail dealing with an e-mail coming from suicide watch, back to SHU, that would be for any inmate. But however, with him, you couldn’t necessarily do that because he would have to have a vetted cell mate. He would have to have somebody appropriate for him. Not just any cell that was open. That, you know, if it was a —¶

EFTA00111898¶

EFTA00111899¶

EFTA00111900¶

CERTIFICATE¶

I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of:¶

Interview of¶

Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber¶

EFTA00111901¶