SWORN STATEMENT¶
DIGITALLY RECORDED¶
OIG CASE #:¶
2019-010614¶
OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL¶
SEPTEMBER 22, 2021¶
RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES¶
28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285¶
Agoura Hills, CA 91301¶
Phone: (818) 431-5800¶
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conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure.Ӧ
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him to activate it, with his current situation at the time being in the SHU?¶
Not that particular day, he was requested a phone. It would have took him, to actually activate it in SHU, and add money to it, because when you activate it in Special Housing Unit, let’s say he activates it to today. He would have to fill out a green form. Usually, they would do it on the computer. They don’t have computers in SHU where they could do it. So, they would have to fill out a green form, which would have to be given to them by a unit manager, or a unit team member. That green form is then filled out by them. And then, it’s submitted to our ITS, which then will put it, put the money on the money on his account. I would say it would take, like, three or four days, to a week, for it to actually be activated. Be in his account.¶
And was he provided a green form?¶
No. Because at that particular time, I just gave him the pin and pack. That was it.¶
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attorney conference that he was ready because they knew I was leaving at 7:00.¶
handcuffed, searched, and brought upstairs.¶
did not know which cell was Epstein’s, and instead, put Epstein in the shower area, on G-tier, which prefers for phone calls because inmates are not locked in their cells with the ability to pull the phone cord into their locked cell, and use it to commit self-harm. The phone cord barely reaches into the shower, where the guards are also physically present, with Epstein. used the first outlet on the left, which is the legal line.¶
Epstein provided with the phone number beginning with (347).” Now, before I go on, it says you used the first outlet on the left, legal line. Why the legal line?¶
Because they have two lines in there. One is a legal line, and one is, where he uses his phone. So, he - let’s say if I plugged it in there, he can’t use it because his pack and pin is not set up. On a legal line, like we give right now, we give inmates in SHU legal calls. So, we actually have to¶
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put in that code, in order for them to make that call. So, there’s a certain call where the inmates don’t have.¶
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while. And me, personally, if he was my inmate, he would have had his pin set up. Why his wasn’t set up, I don’t know. And I will give you a good example. R. Kelly’s up there, his is set up. Why his wasn’t set up, my job as a duty Officer, is to make sure, if an inmate, like, I’m there to sit for the warden. So, if an inmate is asking, hey, can I get a phone call?¶
He’s been asking for this phone call for a while. From his unit manager, from everybody, and I’m, like, why does this inmate don’t have his pin and pack set up? I don’t know. I’m not his unit team. That’s not my responsibility to have other stuff. If it was, it would have been set up. So, since I’m duty officer, and I know that I verified that he didn’t make any phone calls, I said, okay, he’s just like any other inmate. It’s only right to make sure that he stays in contact with his family, because that’s part of the program statement of inmates visiting their families and keeping in contact with their family members. He didn’t have a line to make it on. So, I chose to make that decision, and make it¶
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on the legal line, was there any steps to make sure, because it’s supposed to be recorded, you know, an inmate call, a social call, is supposed to be recorded.¶
He said he’s calling his mother. Was there any steps that you should have taken to ensure that that call was monitored somehow?¶
The only way we monitor it is, I made the phone call, hello, how you doing? I don’t say, hey, is this his mother, because my thing is, I could say, hey, is this his mother, yeah, well, yes, this is his mother. How do I know? So, a female answers, I give him the phone. I let him talk for 15 minutes. I go sit down, let him talk for 15 minutes. When he’s done with the phone call, disconnect, and that’s it.¶
So, we don’t know. Let’s say, right now, I put an endogen inmate on a phone right now. For 15 minutes. And I let him talk or whatever. Do we know there’s a three-way, or anything? We don’t know. So, we sit down. We time it. 15 minutes. And we’re done. There’s¶
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no way to record that phone. There’s no way to pretty much his brother, or somebody else, can get on the line. Anybody can get on that line, at that particular time.¶
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there, she - and anybody would say, okay, inmates, we want a phone call, you on a phone restriction.¶
But remember, the warden is the only one who could say, okay, give this inmate a phone call. Okay. Give him a phone call. How can you give him a phone call? He’s on a phone restriction. There’s only two ways you could give an inmate a phone call, and that is, you can’t give it to him on a social, you give it to him on legal line. Yes, ma’am. She signs the cop out. She approves it. Well, any warden. I’m not just saying her. I’m not trying to put. I’m just saying, that’s how it’s done. That’s how I’ve seen it done.¶
Once we get it approved, we give the inmate the phone, on the legal line, hey, hello, boom. Give it to him. Sit down in the chair. Wait 15 minutes. Go back. Hey, you - give him two minutes - hey, you have two minutes left and that’s it. Take the phone from the inmate. We don’t know that person is¶
: Okay. So, you are¶
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area. You make the phone call. On speaker. Because that’s how we do it downstairs. And then, you give it to him on speaker. And then, you let him-. If he wants his 15-minute phone call, he will talk to whoever he wants to talk to on speaker.¶
That’s how Epstein received his first phone call. It’s a three-minute phone call on speaker. So, the BOP and everybody else could say, this is the way to do it. That’s not the proper way. The proper way to make a phone call, for an inmate, is to have that inmate secluded, because these guys can hear, too. So, you don’t know what he’s saying. He could be crying for his death. And you got other inmates right there. In the next cell who could hear him. Oh, this person is doing this to me. That.¶
So, the proper way is to bring the inmate out, put him in a belly chain, because then he has to be cuffed in the front. Put him on the phone, with a counselor or unit team, and put him on speaker. That’s the proper way.¶
: I’m going to finish the paragraph.¶
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the only shower that is outside. All the other showers are inside. So, you have to -. So, you can’t see it. So, G-tier is the only shower that’s, like, you could actually see.¶
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hey, I want to call my father, and a woman pick up. Okay. How you doing? Because he’s giving me that number, and I’m verifying that that number is on his - but which he don’t, you can’t verify his numbers, because he don’t have an account. So, give him the phone, and that’s it. I don’t -. Me verifying it, was it, you know, was it something I should have done?¶
Yes. Was it something I did? No.¶
: Okay. And are inmates allowed to call just anyone, or is there a specific list of people that they are allowed to call?¶
: Originally how it works is, if an inmate is asking for, of course, his mother, father, sister, brother, whoever he wants to speak to, usually, it’s not ever a friend. It’s usually immediate family members. Mother, father, sister, brother, uncle, aunts, whatever. It has to be in the inmate phone list. But once again, how can an inmate have a phone list when he has no account set up?¶
: So, the pack and pin, if he set that up, would have had a phone list —¶
: That is -.¶
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logged in a phone logbook. And at the time, they didn’t have a phone logbook. That I was aware of. A lot of stuff, when I got there, they didn’t have. We made, like, I recently made a phone logbook, a legal line. I did that myself because I know what was - what we was doing in other prisons. They didn’t have one here. I made that up and put it in SHU. And it wasn’t after Epstein.¶
I just said, if we’re giving inmates legal calls, we need to have that documented, and so an inmate - let’s say he bought 1,000 BP-8 and BP-9 (Phonetic Sp. *00:38:33), and said, I never got this call. Same thing with social calls. Social calls have to be logged in the book. How would you -? Yeah, you can print the data off and say, okay, you made a 15 minute phone, but we should be logging it in because it should be also the person who’s giving that inmate that phone call.¶
logged, and it wasn’t monitored. Okay. As far¶
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responsibility to set that up. And let’s say - I’ll give you a good example - let’s use R. Kelly. All right? He’s in my unit now. Okay? So, regardless of whoever is who, I get new guys that come in. Every day, an inmate going to come to you and say, hey, I need my pack and pin. That’s something they’re going to do. Well, R. Kelly is always in court. Right? It doesn’t mean he can’t set up his legal line. He had to -. How did he set up his stuff? He set it up the same way.¶
So, saying that is how long do we have Epstein, and it wasn’t set up? So, it should have been set up from the beginning. So, we wouldn’t have this problem where, okay, an inmate is entitled to call his family member or whoever. And yes, it should be monitored. So, that’s besides the point. Whatever I did, I’m not going to sit there and sugar coat it and say, hey, I should have sat right there, but even sitting right there, what can I heard him say? Oh, this, and this, whatever. Whatever. And maybe I should have. Maybe I should have pulled him out and put him in this area, and put it on speaker.¶
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But once again, we’re talking about 80 some inmates, and two officers, that is, you know, it should be four officers, instead of that. But it’s two officers. So, there was a lot of shortness going around. Shortcuts going around. I’m not putting that on nobody. This is me. I’m speaking about me. I’m not speaking about anybody else. So, once I realized a lot of stuff was going on, and that’s not just because of his death, it’s things that I know that should be happening. I put those things in place at MCC because it wasn’t happening.¶
I did those. I’m the one who put a green book in SHU, make sure that legal calls, and I did that. Specifically. And nobody made me do it. I just knew it was the right thing to do. I’m the one who actually went to the AW, in the com shop, and told him, take the legal line out. And it wasn’t just because of Epstein. It was because a lot of inmates were manipulating staff to give them the legal line, to make phone calls. Who is to say an inmate is not putting a hit on a staff member? Or another inmate? And it wasn’t monitored. So,¶
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Because at MCC, it takes, it’s not something you, like, you go to people, and you say - and you know right from wrong - and you go, hey, you know, I know everything is a little salty now. People running around. I know it’s crazy. But you go to these people. Hey, communication. Because that’s who has a door. Hey, we need to take these legal lines out. Okay. I’m good with that. Let’s get with -. So, get with the associate warden, hey, associate warden. And I’m putting this in emails. I’m not just, you know, hey, we need to get rid of this stuff.¶
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: It was constant. And it was nothing -. I mean, so, I requested that because it was putting staff in a bind. My thing. It was a lot of -. And I’m not saying, like, these are young staff. You know, some staff got, you know, once you get your year, you can go to SHU. They don’t know no better. Hey, let me have a phone call. So, you put it in the social line. Right? And let’s say you got a staff that’s down there, and the inmate go, hold that, my phone’s not working. It says social and legal.¶
So, you know the difference. And then, he takes it out of social and plug it. So, it might not be typically that staff member. It could be another staff member taking it out and putting it there. So, that’s why I said, okay,¶
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right? I’m doing my unit manager rounds. I’m doing rounds. And I’m, like, you know the difference between the cord, and you go, what’s this guy on right here? Oh, he’s on a social call. No, he’s not on a social call. He’s on the legal line. Like, each, you know -? So, I would go over there, and of course, I catch problems. Take it and just switch it. Oh, I don’t have no minutes. You don’t have no minutes. You shouldn’t -. You’re on phone restriction. It’s a lot. Now, it becomes a problem where, guess what? The inmate acts out, he breaks the phone. Do you know how many phones we’ve replaced in there? Listen. It was a lot.¶
: Like I said, me personally, I would never make an excuse for myself. You know? Regardless of the fact, the years that I have in, I should have did it the right way. There is no way for me, myself, to fall into MCC’s trap, which I did. And it caused me to be right here today. So, I would never make an excuse for that.¶
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No. So, what we do is, unit team has to do rounds on an everyday basis. We go in. I know you guys saw that book. I don’t know if you saw it. So, the sign-in book that we sign in.¶
: You go in. You sign in.¶
Put the time you in. And then, whenever you come out. So, we would go there, and we would run a roster with all of our inmates. 11 North, 11 South. And 9 North. Run. Boom.¶
Zoom. When I go down, hey, how you doing, your unit manager, boom, boom, boom. What you need?¶
They might want a BP-8. They may say, hey, I want a phone call. Okay. You on phone restriction? No. Okay. So, when is your next validation date? And a lot of those guys were legit. Oh, by validation.¶
So, they can really make a phone call. So, I don’t know why they wasn’t getting phone calls. But then, I found out a lot, they didn’t have a SHU schedule. So, everywhere I’ve been, it’s a SHU schedule. Monday, this range. Tuesday, that range. So, no one can get scared. And all inmates knew. Okay,¶
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Mondays, we don’t use the phone. It’s just us going to use the phone. And that should have been set up that way.¶
Once again, I set that up. I did. I didn’t have to. But I did it because I thought it was just right for the inmates, and for the staff. This way, they’re not, okay, they’re giving this inmate a phone call today.¶
Tomorrow, this inmate want the phone. Next day. And this becomes where the inmates are actually running the phones the way they want to. And it shouldn’t be that way. You should be giving this range on Monday, and that should be every Monday.¶
If this dude is validated, and he can get a phone call, he should get a phone call. Leave it on that range, put it in the social line, he can only make - at that time - you can only make two 15-minute phone calls. It would cut off no matter what. So, you can go down there and make your 30-minute rounds, and you knew that the phone call was over. You knew it was over. It was done. Take it, give it to the next person.¶
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That’s the last thing they do. Our job, even when we make lieutenant rounds in the housing unit. In the housing unit, you don’t have to go every cell in the housing unit because it’s not the SHU. They’re out. But you should go to at least one or two ranges. Go around, and you check, and you’re making sure. How you know an inmate not on a cell phone? You check and you looking at, you looking into the cell. How you know an inmate don’t have his window covered? Why you got your window covered? Open the door. So, yes. But in SHU, it’s every cell.¶
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So, I can do rounds for them. That’s in the new unit manager’s manual.¶
Now, aside from phone calls, what is a unit team member, or manager, checking in with the inmates on? What is the, like, what is the goal of checking in with the inmates?¶
: We’re doing is reports. So, disciplinary action. So, we go there. An inmate has-. That’s why he’s in SHU. Disciplinary action. So, we do incident reports. Excuse me. We set up inmates - a lot of inmates from visiting can’t set up their visits in SHU. That, they can’t set up. So, they would have to fill out a form, who they want. And then, we take that form and send it to trust fund, who they would then add those names to the visiting list. But they would have to already be in the inmates’ central file, if it’s on those. So, we do visiting, incident reports, BP-8s, BP-9s, inmate remedies, if they want a BP-8, BP-9. And listen to their problems. So, that’s why we had to go to SHU every day.¶
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anything to do with, like, cellmates?¶
No. The only time we would get involved with cellmate is when it was just, like, psychologist, and that was Epstein. So, if the psychologist says, this person needs a cellmate, the only time unit team, if I knew an inmate, like now, we do it now. So, we got an inmate up here that needed a cellmate. I know four or five inmates. So, in SHU, and I would be, like, this is a good fit for him.¶
If this guy is a sex offender, and he’s not a sex offender predator, he’s just a sex offender. And he shouldn’t be with nobody who is a predator. He can be with another sex offender, but not a predator. Not somebody who is going to prey on him. So, I would be, like, you know what? I know him. He used to be in my unit. So, I would give them, like, the psychologist, I would say, hey, he can cell with this inmate.¶
So, yes, we would have input, as far as that, because we know the inmates. The unit team knows the inmate more than anybody. Like, the captain, for him to know an inmate, even though he’s doing his rounds, he don’t know the¶
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Okay. Then here’s the thing. Okay. Let’s say your inmate is out in court. Okay? And typically, the right way. And I will say this about MCC. How they was doing this. Now, we didn’t have that-. We have the holding cells now. We didn’t have them before. They just put them there. I guess after this incident. But you would then - me personally - I would then put that inmate, and that inmate was in a good area, with officer (Indiscernible *00:58:35). I will put that inmate in that cell. So, he was in that cell. But I would - me personally - I would probably do, not a 30-minute round, a 15-minute round, and that’s just me, until his cellmate get there.¶
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I thought you said everybody knew he was at court. So, our understanding, through talking with R&D, and other lieutenants and officers, was you get the court list, the court production list, it will say, like, you know,¶
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That’s just -. I do it right now. I do it now. When I have an inmate right now, in our suicide watch.¶
(Phonetic Sp. *01:03:02). When he comes off, I will actually go in the unit. I would be, like, hey, you need to find a cellee. If he don’t find a cellee, and then I’m interviewing that cellee, I need to find out what kind of cellmate he’s putting in there with him. He might have a guy, okay, this guy-. But I’ve done it. And that’s something I will never go against, where if I know an inmate has to have a cellmate, I’m going to make sure he has a cellmate.¶
So, on this note, whereas Epstein was required to have a cellmate, his cellmate, at 8:00 a.m. or whatever time it was, early in the morning, you know, leaves the institution, listed on the court production list as WAB. In your unit manager experience, who was responsible for saying, he’s WAB, he’s not going to court, he’s WAB, he’s transferring from here, and there is emails from the U.S. Marshal Service that clearly show, the day before, that he is transferring to GO.¶
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Because the SHU lieutenant, like, if I’m the SHU lieutenant, I used to be a lieutenant for 13 years. So, I’m the SHU lieutenant. So, you give me a copy of this list, you know, this guy leaving. He don’t got no cellmate. Oh, he getting a cellmate. And I already know, Epstein is in court, while he’s downstairs, right? He probably be down there until about, let’s say 7:00, 8:00. Before he come up here, he have a cellmate. That’s automatic. So, it would fall on under SHU lieutenant. If the SHU lieutenant wasn’t there, it’s the operations lieutenant. Who would then notify the captain and psychology,¶
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hey, we need to give this guy a cellee. Which then, if they would have did it early enough, when the inmate went up at 6:45, he would have went back in that cell, and he would have had a cellmate.¶
: Absolutely. So, the actual way it should have worked is, the SHU lieutenant to the ops lieutenants to the captain, or the SHU lieutenant straight to the captain.¶
: That is correct. It’s never our responsibility. Because that inmate, he belong to SHU. The SHU belongs to the captain. SHU is the captain. That’s the captain’s baby. If you got a SHU lieutenant, it’s the SHU lieutenants. That’s mines. So, I know all my inmates. I know who needs a cellmate. Oh, the cellmate left. Okay. Let’s get the cellmate for this inmate. Call psychology. Hey, Reyes left. We need a cellmate for Epstein. Okay. Let’s make sure we don’t pick somebody like Tartaglione, or somebody else who’s going to, you know what I mean? Get accused of doing something. Okay. We’ll pick a cellmate.¶
: So, two things off that.¶
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We don’t. But let’s say, if - and the reason why I say we don’t, but we still do - let’s say, if I knew it was my inmate, right? So, I get a list. Like, and then, I’m going to give you an example. All these guys that’s come in over here, right? I get the list in the morning. They come here every Thursday. These MCC guys. And they’re going into quarantine unit. So, the process here, I had to find out the process when I got here. I get the list.¶
(Phonetic Sp. *01:09:49), who is over there, she does all the bed assignments. So, I thought, originally, I’m doing the bed assignments, because technically, they are my inmates, I do their assignments. So, long story short, she says to us, she does it because she only have 20 inmates. She’s been doing since she’s been here. Okay. So, that’s something less I have to do. But I still have to make sure those inmates, because they come into my unit, all the cells are working. All the lights are working in the cell.¶
Everything.¶
So, that’s my responsibility. That is my¶
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were being talked about. What is your understanding of what happened with Epstein and Tartaglione?¶
- and this is when I first met Tartaglione. I didn’t know anything about him. I didn’t know his background. Anything. It was just alleged, and this is something that I heard, that he choked Epstein out. That’s the only thing I heard. So, of course, they had an SIS investigation, and they moved Tartaglione, and that was it. And Tartaglione came to my unit, like later on, he was in 11 North or whatever. He, like, you know, oh my God, this guy was trying to get to me, caught up, I don’t get into that. I was, like, whatever. He was just, like, no, I never did that. And you think I would do something like that? And I’m working on my case? All right. No problem. Never, ever talked about them again.
reconcile that, that you heard, maybe,¶
Tartaglione attempted to harm Epstein versus,¶
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Inmate Epstein, Jeffrey. Reg number: 76318054.¶
“This memorandum is in regards of inmate Epstein. Jeffrey, reg number 76318054. On August 9th, 2019, I spoke with inmate Epstein, concerning him making a call to his family. I told inmate Epstein I was leaving the facility around 7:00 p.m. Inmate Epstein agreed to shorten his attorney visitation to make his social call. I escorted inmate Epstein to Special Housing Unit around 7:00 p.m. I placed inmate Epstein in the shower on G-tier, and escorted the phone for him to make the social call.¶
I placed the phone in the first jack on the left of G-tier. Inmate Epstein explained to me that he didn’t have his phone set up to use his pack and pin number. I asked inmate Epstein who he was calling. He stated his mother. I remember dialing the number starting with (347), but the number was not notated.” It says “notated.” I’m guessing it says not. You meant not notated?¶
And it actually was, but when I wrote the number down, you know how you write it down on a piece of paper and put it in¶
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whose phone number has is AW because he had to use his personal phone to email her his timeline of events, and pictures of Epstein’s body, prior to its transport by OCME.” Now, you said you - this states that you used your personal phone to email pictures of Epstein’s body. Why did you use your personal phone to take Epstein’s -?¶
For one, R&D is supposed to come out there. R&D is supposed to come out there and fingerprint them. They came out there. They fingerprinted and that was it. Okay. So, me, knowing that, of course, they want to know when we’re leaving, because sent me out there. So, I had to stay with the body until the actual coroner came. The coroner came. So, what I did was, yes, I took the pictures, to let her know, yes, I’m leaving now, this is the time I’m leaving. This is his body.¶
Where I had proof that the inmate was deceased, and he wasn’t walking off somewhere else. Because all the speculation now and in the news that he’s not dead. So, I did that. Boom, boom, boom. And I sent it to¶
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already at the hospital. He was deceased then. So, she told me to report to the hospital, and that’s when I reported, and I noticed his deceased body.¶
Do you know if, is there any, like, rule, or unofficial or official, that inmates can’t be pronounced dead at the MCC, or at the BOP facility?¶
That. There’s not a policy. They technically says it, but this, this rule was - I came in at ’94. That was an old rule. When I was at MCC, Coleman, and when I was at Coleman, Yazoo City, they pronounce them there. The policy states it’s not us. Our medical people cannot pronounce an inmate dead. So, let’s say if an inmate, (Indiscernible *01:23:13) or whoever, they have to be a licensed, practiced. They can announce that person dead - and I’ve seen it all the time - at the jail. It’s just common for them to say, oh, he didn’t die here. They always say that.¶
Do you —¶
But -.¶
— do you believe, from what you know now, two years later, that he was¶
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doing it by yourself.¶
So, I don’t know how they entered the room. But policy states, when you go in the room, you need to wait for a lieutenant. Period. And you can’t just pop that door. Because how do you know that inmate is not still living where he is trying to kill you, and then escape? Or you definitely need help. That’s why you have to wait for a lieutenant, because that lieutenant has to give you instructions, go in, open it, helping you lift that person, where if you go - to me - there is no way, if it was two or three people, and we picked that inmate up, they wouldn’t say on the news that his (Indiscernible *01:26:22).¶
I just think, me personally, and hadn’t heard anything, but I just think one person was trying to do it by itself, and this, that’s no the proper way. And that’s just my opinion.¶
Because in all the suicides, and I’ve seen - I was at, remember, I was at Coleman USP-1, USP-2 - I’ve seen numerous, and I was the SHU lieutenant. I’m going with at least three or four people. Midnight, I¶
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understand, at night, you only have, but it don’t matter. These inmates are locked down. So, they can -. You can -. If I have a hanging, they’re already told. I’m already telling people, you know to vacate that post. Yes.¶
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is this - what if he was almost there, wasn’t deceased, and what if you’re trying to lift him, and, you know, lift him the right way, and you -. Because if, you know, remember, when they did the autopsy, then I would say, there’s no way he’s going to break that where, unless, you know, they was trying to say, you know, we killed them, unless one person is trying to do it. Epstein wasn’t 140 pounds. He was 200 something. So, there is no way I could lift that dude. There’s no way. So, I would never go in by myself. So, that’s my speculation, where somebody tried to do it by themselves, cover it up, and that’s what I see. Maybe I’m wrong. But that’s my speculation. That’s always going to be my speculation. Because —¶
So¶
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No. We don’t do that. In all my lieutenants’ life, and I was a lieutenant for 13 years, or regardless of the fact, but mine, we’re taught this. There’s no ifs, ands, or buts. You’re taught to go in with enough people. One person, if it’s two inmates in there, you have to -. Especially if it’s day watch, and you should have at least ten people. That’s just like if you’re having a use of force. If there is one person, close to five.¶
If you can’t get five, you at least want to have four. I’m not going to have three people. I’m going to wait until they get there. It is what it is. Yes. Do we want to save the inmate? Yes. The point is, still, you’ve got to look at your safety, and it’s really - when you’re going to use of force, it’s five to one. Two inmates, it’s ten to one. So, you always kind of use that concept. I will go in with one less, so we go in, our job is one person lift the body, you have a cut down tool, which is here. I have one. And you cut the inmate down. That’s a cut down tool.¶
That’s what they refer to as¶
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But if they say, oh, he used a cutter to cut him down, that’s what they’re talking about. Correct?¶
: They had -. They didn’t have something like this. I guess the new warden wanted to order some. They cut down tool, to me, it was dull. I mean, it was a small little cut down tool where, let’s say you’re cutting down something, to me, if youdon’t hold that inmate upright, you’re doing more damage, because you’re trying to cut it down.¶
So, you’re doing like this, and what are you doing? You’re shaking whatever is on his neck, if it’s tight, you’re shaking it down. These right here are actual cut down tools, where you’re going to go like this one time, and it’s just going to cut it. So, the thing is, too, and, you know, there he is. Let’s say you do have -. Every SHU has¶
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But once again, who is responsible?¶
That’s the captain. Checking equipment.¶
Making sure your equipment is not dull. After two or three years, if you’re not using something, you’re always supposed to check that equipment. It’s normal. And then, psychology, they always do their mock drills. They do their moc drills, I think, quarterly. You know, pretend somebody is cut. So, at that time, I would check myself, but I don’t - me personally - I would check myself. You just -.¶
You would -. I wouldn’t want to go to a hanging, and then I’m sitting there like this, because once again, how does that look to me? How does that look? Like, if they did have a camera in the cell. And it doesn’t look right.¶
: Hmm. Actually, when I was at the MCC, I thought, I knew that every camera was working. And that’s just me -. My -. Because they even had cameras in the cell. I¶
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No. I’m not talking about that. You have -. No. I - listen - I’ve been in MCC long enough, I know G-tier. I know all that. But they had some cameras in some cells, and not specific cells. Do I remember offhand? No. But they had those. I’m telling you they had them. Because I remember going in the cell, taking the inmate out. On what’s that? You have K, N, J, and K. Whatever is on the bottom. I remember taking inmates out, and show the camera. Because the inmate had, the inmate had tissue on the camera. So, I was,¶
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Or just your speculation?¶
My thing is, I can tell you this, I knew when the cameras was working, no, it wasn’t the captain. But any time a camera was down, like, there would be - how you say it? - it will be -. It was almost, like, nationalized. Okay. Just cameras down. So, we would know. And then, it would be forced to make sure they fix it. Like, ASAP.¶
So, if the cameras was down, especially certain cameras, they wouldn’t even let inmates out. They won’t let them out. Because we can’t see certain things. So, I don’t -. I was shocked to see that cameras wasn’t -. I was very shocked. Very. Because with those cameras, I think you could have saw more, and it could have either helped or hindered people. It didn’t matter. I would rather for the cameras to work. I don’t care whether it’s there to get me or not. If the cameras was working, I think the investigation would have completed probably a long time ago.¶
[Blank space]: Yeah. Do you know who was in charge of the cameras?¶
[Blank space]: The captain. Because it¶
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with the team. Well, that’s -. It could be -. If he checked with the CMS, well, I only remember system, but that would be somebody in the region. But his office is there. Like, he could open that office, if something is down, he know why it’s down. Then he would report that to either somebody higher. Either regional or somebody, hey, this camera, what’s going on? Like, central office, or somebody. Just like the phones. If the phones are down, it’s the central office guy that usually fix the phone. So, it could have been the central office, or the regional office. So, that could have been the CMS he was talking about.¶
: Just last clarifying. Just, I know I asked you the question. Was it, do you think it would have been possible if Thomas walked in, he sees Epstein, like, laying there, hanging? As one person, do you think he could¶
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time. If I know for a fact I screwed up, what’s the first -? What’s the first thing a kid do? Easily, I’m going in by myself. I’m trying to rip this off. I’m trying to get this dude because, I already know I messed up. I was either sleeping or doing whatever I was doing. I was wrong. And his cell was right there. Well, I could see all the activity that this guy is doing. All I have to do is go do a round. That’s it. So, if I’m not doing something, and I know I messed up, I’m going to try to fix it.¶
Was it possible for him to pull it off without a cutter?¶
working. That sheet? No. It’s hard as -. Listen. I tried cutting - because, you know, inmates hang stuff, and we tell them not to. So, I tried taking one off, and burnt my whole hand. Like, I mean, it was literally, I had to¶
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take a sheet, and pull it, and you’re going to burn your whole -. My whole hand was burnt for about a month. So, it’s hard. Because my understanding is, it was a sheet. So, if it’s a sheet, then just knock it down? No. And if he had it knotted right, there’s no way you could take it down by your hand.¶
And if a cutter was not used, if they said a cutter was not, you yanked it off, you think that’s not possible? You’re saying that’s not possible?¶
Hmm. I saw what the media, how his room was set up. Actually, I’ve been up there. I saw it because they had the room carved there for the FBI. That sheet is so heavy, how -? And if -. Now, to untie it, and then a knot come untie, yes. But if the knot was still there, and you cut it, like this, there’s no way. There -. I don’t -. Listen, man. I’m strong. I know Thomas (Indiscernible *01:40:05). I work out. There’s no way I’m going to just pull a sheet, and just come in. There’s no way. There’s no way.¶
Be similar to, like, saying that he ripped a rope in half —¶
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CERTIFICATE¶
I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of:¶
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