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DIGITALLY RECORDED¶
SWORN STATEMENT¶
OF¶
OIG CASE #:¶
2019-010614¶
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE¶
OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL¶
JUNE 15, 2021¶
RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES¶
28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285¶
Agoura Hills, CA 91301¶
Phone: (818) 431-5800¶
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APPEARANCES:¶
OTHER APPEARANCES:¶
NONE¶
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As I stated before, this is an official DOJ investigation into the death of inmate Jeffery Epstein and the timing surrounding that and you’re being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG?¶
Yes.¶
As part of our procedure, I’m going to provide you with DOJ OIG form 3226 226-2. I’m going to read the form out loud to you and give you a chance to review it also.¶
“United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to¶
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provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer any questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary proceeding or both.” Now the waiver for you.¶
“I understand the warnings and assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me.” Do you understand that?¶
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”: “Once they rotate to another population, the form is invalid and no longer exists.” Now, what does that mean? Do they destroy the forms?¶
No. So what happens is, okay, the way the program operates is, once you come out of the SHU program, like say for instance, if you key to suicide watch area, your original form, or whatever form, is, if it didn’t get printed, if there’s a form there, but that stops, the time stops.¶
You mean they create a new form for every housing unit you go into is¶
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timestamped. So, once that person is there, it creates an AD order, administrative detention order. Once that administrative detention order is set, the Lieutenant writes in there why the individual was placed in Special¶
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Housing —¶
: Uh-huh.¶
: — has to be a reason. If that form is not filled out, the Captain gets an email from the region saying there’s a blank AD order in here, right? So I used to go in there and look every morning to see if somebody, whoever got placed in Special Housing to see what the charges was or if that form was filled out.¶
If that form wasn’t filled out, I look at the Lieutenant’s log or I call the Lieutenant, whoever, you know, “Why did this inmate get locked up?” Normally when I do my rounds, I ask the inmates, “Why are you up here?” Some of them lie and they, “I don’t know why I’m up here,” whatever. But then I find out why they up there, then I know why. It could be SIS investigation, it could be because of a fight.¶
: It could be multiple reasons why the AD order wasn’t created. However, we try to create and do the AD order to place the¶
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No, that’s something that, you know, from when I started at the Bureau, we did that, because once you knew individuals receive - you can’t - policy states that you’re not supposed to have an AD, Administrative Detention person and a person that’s under disciplinary segregation together, housed together. It’s supposed to be separate.¶
That’s the policy that they -that’s 5270, you know, point whatever the new number is, 9 or 10, right, the SHU program statement. When Psychology says that this person tried to harm themselves, we make sure that they have to have a bunkie. So, you know, they have a companion or somebody in there that they could talk to so that, you know, they don’t feel despondent, you know. SHU is a place, you know, if you don’t check on these inmates, you know, they’re going to remind you.¶
So, you know, you’ve got to make rounds, you’ve got to check on - be checking on these inmates. You’ve got to be seeing what they’re doing, you know. It’s a¶
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And so, I cannot explain for another shift. I cannot explain - only could tell what did. I don’t know what anybody else did after I left. I don’t know. I cannot answer that.¶
Right. So like you were saying, he was housed with a bunkie on July 30th. What we’re asking is that between July 30th and between August 9th, the days that you were there, were you conversing with these people to remind them that he was required to have a cell-.¶
: It wasn’t nothing to talk about because everybody knew. He wasn’t by his self, so he has a bunkie so -.¶
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Right. But isn’t it true that the - at the MCC, inmates are constantly coming in and out? It’s more of a jail than a prison?¶
Yes. But one thing don’t have nothing to do with - if we’re working every day together, I don’t - why am I keep telling you the same thing every day? I don’t have to tell you your job to what you’re supposed to do every day. I’ve got to keep reminding you to feed? I have a billion other things to do.¶
: So, what we’re asking is did you have conversations with anyone on those other days about the reminder that Epstein is required to have a cell mate?¶
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1 for what they should or should not have done -¶
I don't know.¶
: Yeah. But do you believe that as a correctional officer as well as being that the fact that that’s the (Indiscernible *01:07:16) —¶
: I’ll put it to you this way.¶
If I’m on or in Special Housing, I’m making rounds, I’m checking, I’m looking in every cell, I’m making sure that everything is up to nut. If I see something wrong, I’m going to say something, I’m going to correct it. Okay? That’s me. I was an OIC before I was a SHU Lieutenant. Okay? I was an officer first, so - and I was a damn good one and I was a damn good Lieutenant as well. So, I’m different than - well, I take the job serious. Like I said, my integrity is on the line at the end of the day. Okay? I know how this operates. I know how the Bureau operates. And that’s why the attorney said what he said. From the top down, we’re going to put everybody on notice and I understand this is an investigation, but I was not there. I can’t account for on Monday morning quarterback, what anybody else does.¶
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I know because you don’t know, but I’m telling you, the 30 minute round sheet, right, after, and even before Epstein, you know, they had it - it was, we had them on the ranges so the two can physically, you know, be accurate with, you know, with what you had to write, or whatever. They’re printed sheets.¶
Right? The dates change. Some of them are handwritten. Everybody’s interpretation of a round is different. I was an officer. I don’t forget my roots, so when I make a round, I make a round.¶
Does policy state what a round consists of? Can I find that in policy?¶
A 30 minute round? I mean, checking on the inmates. It says in policy, inmates that are in 30 minute - I mean, that are in the continuous lock down situation, all right, want to quote policy, are supposed to be checked on every 30 minutes. Right? And then the special policy says in Special Housing, because they are continuously locked down and¶
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1: Throw some water. 2: — both are sitting there 3: falling asleep together, that’s not -. 4: Somebody got - that’s - then 5: that’s - hey, I can’t -. 6: Okay. 7: You know. It’s just like this. 8: I do hospital trips. I can’t go to sleep. 9: Okay? Especially if we have one weapon on a hospital trip. So you go to sleep and you got the weapon, I’m dead. Or, we live in a world, now everybody carries a cell phone, cha-ching. 10: Yep. 11: So, I just - I stood the watch, 12: I ain’t sleeping. Stood the watch. 13: Sure. You mentioned the files that are printed out on Sundays and then you would, you know, review in the mornings - 14: Uh-huh. 15: — but you weren’t the one that printed them out, on Sundays, they would. We received information that when Epstein was found on the 10th, they went to get the file and the file didn’t really have anything in it. It’s pos- with the indication¶
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on suicide watch. I don’t know how long he was on suicide watch. But he was on suicide watch and we got that email. And I got that email, I got a call from the Captain, so the Warden. Then I heard from the Warden looking for a bunkie for him. You got to vet them and it’s not coming from me, it’s coming from the top. Okay. So I said, “All right,” so I’m here.¶
was still there, the Warden was still there. It was getting past my time I got to be back in the morning, whatever. Spoke to - when I got word, they said, “We got him a bunkie.” Spoke to , he said, “I got it.” He stayed overtime that day. So, him, Reyes, was placed with Epstein. Every day, I had an opportunity to speak with him. I - he was on suicide watch. I took him up to attorney conference. While he was in SHU, he would ask me for phone calls. While he was in SHU, he wanted rec or whatever. I said, “You can get rec.” Whatever he needed, and it was there from the institution, he got. Whether it was clothing, tee-shirt and boxers and shower, like everybody else, and he was afforded all the opportunities just like every other inmate.¶
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He can’t - because SENTRY and BOPWare talks, it’s live, it’s almost like live.¶
So the moment an inmate is moved from one housing unit to another housing unit, his picture is taken from that - he’s no longer on that housing unit no more. He’s on this housing unit. Right? And if he’s placed in SHU, the inmate picture still can be on the file, but his location will show that he’s housed in SHU.¶
But will all the documents that were created in, you know, in the SHU, would they all be maintained somewhere in the system?¶
Well, you could go back, I don’t know how long it is, but I know that I had to pull records for an inmate that had left prior to, or whatever. If it was documented, it’s probably still there, I don’t know.¶
Alright.¶
But it may be in the system.¶
So, but that - it’s some way you got to play with the system to go back. It’s like post¶
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Well, the OIC, who - you know, the day watch OIC is in charge, you know, of making sure of cell rotations and things get done. It’s printed out daily to see on the paper about cell rotations. Because the region looks at that, you know, if somebody is in the cell past 20 something days - actually, the Captain is supposed to review and look at that, you know.¶
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I run the building, from SHU.¶
To, you know, just making sure - I try to make sure that everybody is doing what they’re supposed to do. I’m checking on these inmates myself and I’m making sure to keep this because it’s already a stressful environment, so I’m making sure, you know, people are getting showered, you know, I’m making sure, you know, I’m trying to, you know, we didn’t have rec for a long time, you know. At that time, we had, you know, two rec officers. Sometimes our rec officers are not there, you know, and we’re all helping each other, you know. Showers was every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, you know. So we’re trying making sure inmates got, you know, hygiene and things of that nature is being taken care of.¶
Okay. Back to that phone call. That is authorized to let inmates in the SHU have phone calls on unrecorded lines?¶
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: After the court list comes out, or whatever, the count changes on the E1. If they get - if the courts kept them, or whatever, so whoever that R&D staff is, I don’t know what their protocols are, whatever, but because it’s a whole different department but we all work together. As a Lieutenant, only way I would catch it on - probably on morning watch or on - if I’m evening watch, when I’m doing my log and I run the 38, the daily change log, and depending on what I’m looking at, I’m going to see who’s off my base count. The morning watch Lieutenant is going to write down¶
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: Yeah, I mean, because, to me, I had people that tried to hang themselves and I work morning watch and I work evening watch.¶
I’m going to check on that individual and I’m making sure they good.¶
And I’m telling everybody, “Yo, make sure you all are doing rounds because, you know, not on my watch,” and anybody will tell you, I’m known for making big rounds, what you doing? We doing big rounds, right? Rounds, rounds, rounds, and we checking on inmates in the Special Housing Unit. That’s what I’m known for. I can’t account for anybody else, but I know me, I’m checking on the individual.¶
The last time you saw Epstein —¶
Uh-huh.¶
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1: But otherwise, unless you go up to the door, you can’t see.¶
No, there was a switch, but you still couldn’t - the inmate can press the button and only one of the lights would come on and if that light wasn’t working, they you can’t see inside the cell unless you tell him to get up out of their bed and put that light on. Or if you have a flashlight, you know,¶
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number that you have in the housing unit, that means somebody is not where they’re supposed to be. If you have less than you have on the housing unit, this tells me two things.¶
: Okay. Originally, it was 73 and that’s the count that they called in.¶
Somebody realized, “Hey, this guy is not here.¶
Holy shit. Oh, he has - did we key him out?¶
Holy shit. We didn’t key him out. Oh, key that guy out.” If that guy was keyed out,¶
let’s say, I don’t know, after 10 o’clock, 11 o’clock, when this was printed - this was printed at 12:35, the computers don’t come back up until 12:30. After 12:30 you can log on the computer and print if you want.¶
: Does this tell you that they didn’t conduct the count and they just used the number that -.¶
: That says a lot of things.¶
: What does it say to you?¶
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No. I’m just - I wasn’t there. So unfortunately, what happened, happened.¶
Everybody works different. I know there’s an investigation, but through all the conspiracy stuff, everybody, the staff that was there when they found him, they worked hard to try to revive him and save his life. But, unfortunately, you know, it turned to a sad event. But we are very well understaffed. Had we had more officers - I know everybody want to point the finger, but it’s an unfortunate thing to happen, you know? You know, a lot of things have to change in the BOP, you know, but, you know, I only can be as truthful and honest with you as I can, you know?¶
On that note, you just made me think of one more small question. You said that they did work hard on saving his life. Was it okay that Thomas immediately went into the cell upon seeing Epstein in the state that he was in or should have he waited?¶
He made a decision.¶
All right so was it - do you -.¶
I would have made the same¶
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know, it’s two to one, you know, two officers to one inmate. Then they came and they said, “One to one ratio,” but they never really changed it, that’s word of mouth. But it’s always two to one, right? If you down range with me, it’s two to one. So if it’s an emergency situation and I’ve activated my body alarm, I’m a go get you. Okay? Now, who knows, he could have been faking a funk. Come in there, he came in his cell and try to escape. Now you got the keys, now your SHU is compromised. So it’s a judgment call. But at the end of the day, I’ve been in situations where two people in my career tried to commit suicide. I saved both of them. Okay? One was early, I think early this year, January or something or late last year. Inmate tried to kill himself. I was called upstairs. I didn’t wait. They said, “Operations to the Special Housing Unit -” I mean, Special Housing. I¶
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didn’t wait. I came upstairs ASAP. They let me in and the dude was hanging. I did my 583, I did my notification to the Warden, right? Did they thank me? No, she sent me a personal email like three days later. You know who did it, I did, but it’s okay. I’m there for officers. I’m there to save lives. I did my job. Prior to that, I still had a guy, a young man who was in the newspaper, gang member. Okay? I saved his lift. He was hanging on J Tier in a suicide cell, tried to hang himself. We went in there, grabbed him with enough staff and we lowered him down. After that, there was a young boy. Always had a bunkie. Who was the SHU Lieutenant? Me. Okay? So do I - from experience, yes, I know. Do I talk to my crew? Yes. Was it documented? Yes. That’s all I can say.¶
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CERTIFICATE¶
I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of:¶
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