SWORN STATEMENT¶
DIGITALLY RECORDED¶
OIG CASE #:¶
2019-010614¶
OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL¶
OCTOBER 27, 2021¶
RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES¶
28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285¶
Agoura Hills, CA 91301¶
Phone: (818) 431-5800¶
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: Thank you. I’m going to provide you with the OIG form III-226/2. It states the following, “United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General. Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provided Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended.¶
This investigation pertains to job performance failure, and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer any questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer any questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceeding, or both.” The waiver states, “I understand the warnings and assurance stated above, and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions.¶
No promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has¶
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”: “Code three are more severe cases, and they are seen every week by psychological services, to ensure the inmate is stable. If the inmate isn’t stable in general population, they will be moved to observation. If they continue to deteriorate, they will go to the hospital.”¶
We will try to send them to a BOP medical center. Or we will try to stabilize them in the facility. We have a psychiatrist who is actually, he is a central office psychiatrist, but he was actually located at MCC New York. So, if they started to decompensate the interview, and they were that acute, we would have the psychiatrist see them, and potentially medicate them, and try to stabilize them at our facility. If we cannot do so, then we will try to do an emergency,¶
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a code one can be on suicide watch. Often times, those cases involve manipulation techniques used by inmates to get what they want from staff. For example, if an inmate is not getting along with the guard, or they want a new cellmate, they will claim to be suicidal to get out of their housing area. If an inmate does this two or three times, they will be bumped to a code two, so that a psychologist will meet with them monthly. Suicide watch means an inmate is eminently suicidal. If an inmate is placed on suicide watch, they are under constant watch by staff. They have a special mattress, blanket, and smock to wear. And their cell lights are on 24/7.Ӧ
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clothing, and some materials, such as books. Suicide watch can be detrimental if a person is left on it for too long. So, observation is used to see how an inmate is doing before releasing them back to general population.Ӧ
Correct. So, psychological observation, they are observed constantly, with regard to what they have, they can obtain.¶
They can have those things that you listed.¶
But we have to determine, and sometimes it might be one thing at a time. Like, we might give them their underwear, and see how they do with that. And then, we will, you know, give them a book. But it’s not like once you get stopped down, you get all of those items.¶
: Okay. “Any psychologist at jail can take an inmate off suicide watch, but they do consult with on occasion.¶
Many times, the executive staff at the jail meet, and inmate psychological status and services are discussed.Ӧ
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Yes. So, we have, like, Mondays, we have an opening meeting, and Fridays, we have a close out meeting. And Tuesdays, the days may have changed from then to now. I think it used to be Thursdays, used to be a SHU meeting. And so, certain members, all the members of the executive staff are there. And then, certain department heads attend these meetings. And during the meetings, they will ask me, you know, is there anything for psychology.¶
And then, I will discuss the inmates that are on suicide watch. And what my plans is for those inmates. Or if we were discussing the Special Housing Unit, I’ll discuss inmates that I feel need to be observed closely. Should have cellmates. Or may suffer from mental health problems that I feel we just need to keep an eye on, or make sure they are in more visible, highly visible cells. Any mental health concern I have in the SHU, I would¶
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correctional reasons that, you know, they may have their own ways of viewing where they housed someone. Maybe there will be an inmate up there, or too many that they are separated from, or maybe they are a gang member. I mean, there may be other reasons why they can’t follow our recommendations.¶
And so, there might be exceptions to that rule. So, now, pretty much what we do is, if, like, let’s say we have to house somebody alone in SHU. We have to - we put whether we recommend or not recommend. Now, we do that.¶
And I never recommend an inmate be single celled. Ever. So, if they decide, that’s on them. And usually, it’s because an inmate may be too violent, or may be sept out from all other inmates in the facility because they are so, in all these gangs, and they are cooperating.¶
And there is just too many bloods, let’s say, and there are blood, and they may have to be by themselves, or they may have assaulted other inmates, or officers, and they just can’t be celled with somebody. For whatever reason. Or the U.S. Attorney’s Office has said this¶
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person needs to be by themselves. We’re afraid for their life, at that facility. So, I’m never going to recommend somebody be by themselves because it’s never a good idea. But there might be extenuating circumstances where someone needs to be housed alone, and in that case, you know, we would recommend an increase rounds, or, you know, keeping an eye on that inmate.¶
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captain, supervisory attorney, duty officer, and the executive assistant. Department head meetings are held on Wednesdays.¶
: “Completed the PSIQ for Jeffrey Epstein on July 8, 2019. Epstein did not mark anything on his PSIQ. And had it not been Epstein, he would have been sent to general population, and rated a care code one. consulted with Dr.¶
about Epstein’s risk factors, aside from his psychological health, including high-profile case and sex offense charges.” Who is Dr. ?¶
: He was the suicide prevention coordinator in central office. Now, he has been moved up to a higher position, but he is in central office, and he called me right away, when Epstein came, because of his risk factors. We call those static risk factors. Those are risk factors for suicidality that can’t be changed. So, in other words, if you come in and you are a sex offender, and you are high-profile, like Jeffrey Epstein was, that is¶
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going to take place throughout his incarceration.¶
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: Okay. “When Epstein returned¶
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I wanted him assessed. So, I remember he was placed on watch, and he was waiting for me to come in and do his interview. And, you know, I came into the watch area, and he was, like, are you ? And he’s, like, get me out of here. You know? Because he didn’t endorse anything. He didn’t say he was suicidal. He had just come from court, and he was just waiting to come off of watch because, you know, watch is very depriving, like we said, you can’t have anything there.¶
Like, not even clothes. It’s just -. You know, so, for him to be put in that situation. He was really unhappy about it. And then, you know, I explained, it was for his safety, and¶
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observation, pending a suitable housing placement, given his risk factors of being an alleged sex offender. High-profile, and having one living brother relative. She quoted Epstein as saying, ‘Being alive is fun.’ Dr. believed it was a genuine statement.”¶
the interviewing agents with a copy of the suicide risk assessment, which was placed into this case as reference three. On July 10th, 2019, met with Epstein in observation. Epstein was still in observation, due to housing concerns. He continued to be psychologically stable at that time. Epstein was aware, even if he got bail, he would be at MCC for several more weeks.” That statement, “Epstein was aware even if he got bail.” Was your understanding that he was going to get bail?¶
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of requests. And I guess, in the beginning, you know, I tried to help him as best as I could, and when I say personal assistant, I don’t really like that word. But what I was really trying to say is that the officers would say he would always say, where is¶
So, let me put it that way.¶
It sounds a little better than that. And then, you know what? I wanted to follow up with him, and do a session, but he was in attorney conference, like, eight hours a day, during my entire shift. So, I would have to go up there just to check on him, and make sure he was doing okay. So, when I would ask if he was suicidal, he would be, like, I was never suicidal, and, you know, he would laugh, and the attorney would laugh at me. You know, so, it was just kind of - that’s what I meant. And then, when he would chastise, he would become angry.¶
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regarding Epstein, because he was found in his cell with a loose noose around his neck, and had been placed on suicide watch. She ordered a suicide risk assessment be completed on him. Dr… .” Is that -? Did I -? “Completed the suicide risk assessment later that morning.¶
During the assessment, Epstein told Dr. he did not remember what happened. He denied suicidality. Had future plans. And he wanted to learn. He wanted to fight his case. And he was acting like a big kid. Dr. learned that Epstein had told staff that his cellmate, Tartaglione, had tried to kill him. Dr. kept Epstein on suicide watch.” What was your understanding, and did you have a conversation with Epstein, after that point, about his interaction with Tartaglione? What exactly transpired —¶
: Yes.¶
: — on that incident?¶
: And that was the iss¶
mean, he never retracted that statement. I mean, he said that he thought he was a pedophile, and that he had taken this piece -. I don’t know if it was a piece, or a piece of¶
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getting. So, this is how they were going to play the system to their advantage. Two) it was rehearsal by Epstein, who really was suicidal. Three) it was an assault committed by Tartaglione.” Was that the three? That is your three hypotheses?¶
placed on watch. The SIS investigation hadn’t taken place. I had -. There was enough evidence it could have been any one of those, because the phone call I received in the morning, when he was placed on watch, the lieutenant at that time had told me it was -. She was, like, this doesn’t - because they have been around a while - this isn’t a real thing. It was like a little string, and, you know, he was, he seemed fine.¶
And then, when I turned around, he would be rocking back and forth. So, she, you know,¶
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He had a lot of money at that point. It’s not like he had lost trial. And Tartaglione had a lot to gain, to save a life, because he is facing life. You know, when you get a letter that you save someone’s life, that’s helpful in your case. I’m not saying that’s it, but I mean, I’m just trying to think of hypotheses. So, that was where the gamey stuff came in. That was the gamey piece.¶
The report from the lieutenant, the gains that both of them could have by this behavior. Could that be why that happened? Number two. He is genuinely upset, and he was, it was a rehearsal behavior, and perhaps he really wanted to hurt himself. So, we need to be cautious. So, it could be the gamey thing. It could be the cautious thing. Or maybe Epstein and Tartaglione had it out that night, and he said something pompous or whatever, and the other one got upset, and he did, you know, put the rope around his neck, and that really frightened Epstein, and that is why he went into, like, this fetal position.¶
Maybe he was scared. You know, could it have been any of those? And subsequently, I¶
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think one of his attorneys was convinced that Tartagliione had assaulted him. Not because, I guess he told his attorney the same attorney. So, it could have been any -. I say 33 percent chance it could have been any of those things.¶
Well, I guess towards the end of watch, I thought the assault wasn’t as plausible. Because that he really wanted to hurt Epstein, because later on, Epstein was saying he would go back and cell with him. So, why would you want to go back and cell with somebody that was trying to hurt you? So, but¶
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observation is, he’s in the exact same cell, he’s being constantly observed. She spent a long time with him. I think she interviewed him, like, over an hour, an hour and a half. And she just felt that there was no eminent risk of at that time. Like, while he was in a suicide watch cell, he wasn’t going to do anything to harm himself. So, we stepped him down. I think maybe gave him a-. I don’t know if she gave him underwear, or gave him something, so that he was more comfortable. So, it wasn’t so depriving. Because he kept adamantly denying wanting to harm himself. And, you know, she came and talked to me. I didn’t sit in that interview because she’s a licensed psychologist, and she felt it was safe to step him down, because he would still be by himself in that cell, constantly observe with the lights on all night. Nothing would have changed¶
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the step down, the psychological observation. Some people just have the suicide watch. And then, they will give them privileges while they are on suicide watch. But we have that, so, if you want, because suicide watch is so strict, that he couldn’t even have a pair of underwear. He couldn’t, you know, have a piece of mail. Nothing. So, we didn’t feel he needed that strict of supervision, but we still wanted him constantly observed, to see, and we could always step him back up, if he engaged in any behavior, because he would be constantly watched.¶
All right. So, suicide watch and psychological observation are extremely similar.¶
Very similar. Except that we can give a little more privilege. Like I said, we could give him a book to read. Or we could give him a pair of - start with the underwear.¶
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Or, you know, he could have toothpaste, and give it back to brush his teeth. That type of thing. It wasn’t as strict.¶
I mean, I have had people on suicide watch for long periods of time because they can’t verbalize any protective factors, which would be reasons they have for wanting to be alive at the time. Reasons they have to live. Factors that we would look at to say, hmm, there is more factors here that suggest he wants to be alive, and that he has reasons to be alive versus not. Versus risk factors.¶
So, at that time, he had verbalized enough protective factors that Dr. felt comfortable stepping him down to psychological¶
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He kept saying this thing, if you want -. It was this weird thing he said, something. “If you want my trust, I have to trust you.” And that was trust that, if he asked for certain things, that I would follow through with those wants. You know, if I said I was going to do something, I would follow¶
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wasn’t like that. It was just - again, I probably would have to refer to my notes for that one - but it was just a weird thing that he used to say. Like, if you want, if we want to have, like, this trusting relationship type of thing, then, you know, I have to trust that you are going to follow through with your stuff, and you -. And then, you can trust me. I don’t know. It was strange. I don’t really know what he meant by that.¶
: Okay. “He continued with complaints and jokes, making reference to Dr.¶
being Jewish, like him. It is against Jewish religion to commit suicide.” Is that¶
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different than if he were not seeing his attorneys? Was that the same amount of time that psychology would see him, if he was with his attorneys, or staying in the cell where he was being observed?¶
: We’re just, you know, doing a mental status, seeing how they are doing. Are you eating or sleeping? Are you having thoughts of hurting yourself? We read the book.¶
In its entirety, for the past 24 hours, to see, did he voice anything to the companions that he wanted to hurt himself. Did he take his meals? Did he eat his meals? Did he shower? Is he, you know, is he displaying any behaviors that are consistent with depression? So, we look at all of that. And then, we interview him. We do the mental status. We ask him how he’s doing. And so, that would be pretty consistent. It might have been a little shorter on occasion, if he was up¶
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When they weren’t what he wanted them to be, and I guess maybe he heard rumors, or whatever, that the SHU was, like, a bad place, or a scary place, he didn’t want to go back there.¶
But a lot of inmates don’t want to go to SHU, and that is why, earlier, when you said a lot of people fake mental illness, or fake suicidality, so that they can come down to our suicide watch area, and just interact with the companions, and hope that maybe someone will slip them something they couldn’t have while they were in the SHU. Or just to get a timeout because it could be loud up there, because inmates will scream outside their cells, because I don’t know if you are familiar with an AD-SEG (Phonetic Sp. *01:06:16) unit, or a Special Housing Unit, where inmates are in a cell, with a cellmate, like, 23 out of 24 hours a day. So, it gets loud and rowdy.¶
So, a lot of times, people try to come down. It’s, like, almost, like, the Marriott, you know, to come to our suicide watch area, where it is peaceful and quiet, and they don’t have to hear things, or if they are having problems with officers up there. So, it’s not¶
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I can’t remember who he said. There was somebody else, more high-profile, that was¶
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inmates, including housing, single cells, and private spaces. SHU employees receive training on suicide prevention quarterly. All employees receive suicide prevention training once a year. provided slides from MCC’s suicide prevention training to the interviewing agents, reference that, referred to as references any denying, attached to his report.¶
She stated all lieutenants should be aware of the cellmate policy. Both due to the training regularly provided, and psychological services constantly reminding them of the procedure, and needs of specific inmates. noted, after Epstein’s death, his old cellmate’s label was still on his door. That is one of the things that the psych department looks for, in their daily rounds in the SHU, that there are two bodies in each cell.” Now, that label on the door, if an inmate is removed, should that label have been removed, too?¶
How soon?¶
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after reading the paper, gee, that would have been helpful information. Because had I known that, I would have said, that is a red flag, and let’s put him back on, and just watch him for a few more days, and see if we can get more information from him. About why he would do that, or what was going on.¶
So, you know, a lot of times, attorneys call us all the time if they are concerned about their patients. I mean, I get, I used to get, like, several a week, where attorneys would call in and say, you know, I’m worried, I talked to my client on the phone. I don’t like how he sounded. Can psychology check on that inmate? And I was, like, why didn’t they do that this time? Because they always do that. And we do. We go immediately. So, if that was true, I wish someone would have called us, but they didn’t.¶
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That was the first question I asked. When I was away, and I was went to and the times difference was off, and my flight was delayed. I had slept for, like, two hours. It was very strange. I went into the restroom, you know how you bring your phone? I know, TMI. I pressed my phone, and all these alerts came on, and everyone was texting me, and then, I saw that he had hung himself, and I was just, like, how could that happen? And the first thing, when I called my associate warden, the first thing I asked is, did he have a cellmate? Because that was the first thing that came in my mind. And she was, like, no.¶
So¶
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notified us, but at least made - or I would think - someone would make arrangements to say, well, this guy is coming out, we’ve got to get someone in with Epstein. There would be no need to call psychology. Unless Epstein was demonstrating any psychological issues, because¶
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suggested a cell room with a camera for Epstein, because she wanted him to have a cellmate.Ӧ
I don’t make those decisions, as far as who goes on Ten South. Ten South is a high security unit where we house many of the SAMs inmates. I don’t know if you are familiar with the SAMs, but they are in Special Administrative Measures. On occasion, we have had high profile inmates, but that is at the discretion of the warden. Not psychology.¶
Whether he wants to house a high-profile inmate up there. We had Bernard Mayta (Phonetic Sp. *01:30:19) up there. We had El Chapo (Phonetic Sp. *01:30:20) up there. We had the Russian arms dealer up there for a while. So, we have had people there. But the warden - and I don’t know why, because I was not in those meetings decided that he was not going to place him in¶
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a seasoned psychologist. I don’t read every single note that goes into the record. The only time I read every single note is when somebody is a probationary psychologist, and unlicensed.¶
typos. Looking back and having a conversation with her, they were typos, but she is a seasoned psychologist, a forensic psychologist, and I couldn’t possibly read every note that goes in the record. Or else I would never sleep. But I read, you know, like I said, if they are unlicensed, on probationary, then I read all of the notes that go into the record.¶
So, it is not that didn’t do the intake properly.¶
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“July 16th, 12:48 p.m., inmate Epstein is seen by psychology in the presence of his attorneys, while conducting a legal visit. This visit recommended no follow up. This visit was at the request of inmate Epstein, that was wholly inappropriate. Inmate Epstein attempted to establish guidelines for communication, and bring his attorneys into the fray regarding mental health treatment be provided by the institution.¶
It is not typical for the Bureau of Prisons to provide psychological intervention in the presence of others, nor is it appropriate for an agency psychologist to meet with the inmate attorneys.” The summary they put on there is, “On July 16th, 2019, a psychologist met with inmate Epstein in the presence of his attorneys. This visit was done at the request of inmate Epstein, that appears¶
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to have been the purpose of airing grievances with conditions of confinement.¶
This is a highly abnormal event. It is not typical for the Bureau of Prisons to provide psychological intervention in the presence of others, and agency psychologists should not - should neither provide mental health intervention in the presence of others, nor engage legal representation regarding institution operations or conditions of confinement.¶
Although the specifics of what information the psychologists are unknown, any items shared could be viewed as an unauthorized release of information, both regarding inmate Epstein’s mental health treatment, and institution operational information.”¶
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psychologists, or I went up one time, and I think another one of my psychologists went up, it was probably just to see that he was okay, and that he didn’t need anything from psychology. So, the intention was to check on him. It wasn’t to breach any security, or it wasn’t to meet his demands, or anything like that. It was probably because he did spend eight hours up there, and it was more well meaning that we just probably just wanted to see if he had any needs from our department, at that time. Or on that one occasion, he was up there when that psychologist was conducting her rounds in the suicide watch area, and he wasn’t there. And she went up there to check on his mental status, to see if he was okay.¶
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attorneys. He stepped out of the room. Like, the attorneys were sitting at the table. And then, there is the door, and he walked up towards the door. And I just said, you know, I think when I went up there, you know, are you okay? Have you been eating and sleeping okay? I didn’t discuss any intimate details of his childhood, or anything like that. It was kind of just, like, are you okay?¶
Do you have any thoughts of harming yourself? Have you been eating and sleeping, or do you have any concerns like that. And you could see my notes, it would probably indicate what I did ask him. It was well meaning. I certainly didn’t engage. I don’t know. I doubt Dr. did, because she is very rigid. And any discourse with his attorney about anything. I think his attorneys may have made a comment to me, but I think I ignored it.¶
: Okay.¶
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Yes. I mean, it would be highly unlikely that he didn’t. I can say that psychologists, the difficult thing is that we are psychologists. We are not psychic. But the events leading up to it, too, that period of time, he appeared psychologically stable. But the information that he received, according¶
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to what I heard the night before, and all of that information being unsealed, and him being alone with his thoughts, and thinking that maybe, perhaps he would have to spend the rest of his life in jail, and that all of these high-profile individuals information was going to come out about them.¶
Could he have, at that moment, just felt completely hopeless, and thought of ending his life? Yes. That is very possible. You know, that is very possible. Prior to me leaving, he wasn’t given any of this information, and he had a lot of hope, he had a lot of resources. Perhaps he thought, you know, maybe he could cooperate, or get some kind of a deal. I don’t know what happened at that meeting. But having been in the prison system as long as I have been, and being a psychologist, sometimes when people get really bad news, and they feel very hopeless, and the opportunity is there.¶
They will take that opportunity. So, yes. It would be highly improbable, you know, the way our prison is set up, that someone could have snuck up there and harmed him, in some way. The way that the tiers are and¶
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CERTIFICATE¶
I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of:¶
Interview of¶
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