Phone: (818) 991-8002
| 1 | APPEARANCES: |
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| 2 | |
| 3 | OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL |
| 4 | BY: |
| 5 | BY: |
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| 7 | |
| 8 | WITNESS: |
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| 11 | |
| 12 | OTHER APPEARANCES: |
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| 1 | : Today is Monday, August
MR. |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | The following will be a voluntary
12. |
| 3 | interview of BOP Warden
in |
| 4 | furtherance of OIG investigation to be |
| 5 | determined, for the purpose of transcription, |
| 6 | will now identify all present in the interview. |
| 7 | I'll ask everyone to say and spell their last |
| 8 | name, as well as identify their working title |
| 9 | and employer. |
| 10 | I am Special Agent |
| 11 | , Office of the Inspector General. |
| 12 | MR. III: Special Agent Antonio III, III |
| 13 | I, with the FBI. |
| 14 | MR. -:
Warden, |
| 15 | Spelling of the
Federal Bureau of Prisons. |
| 16 | name is first name is
last name is |
| 17 | |
| 18 | |
| 19 | : Thank you.
MR.
Warden |
| 20 | |
| 21 | Um-hum.
MR.
: |
| 22 | : -- you have reviewed and
MR. |
| 23 | signed Department of Justice OIG Form 226-2 |
| 24 | which is Warnings and Assurances of Employees |
| 25 | Request to Provide Information on a Voluntary |
| 1 | been the Warden? |
| --- | --------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | MR.
I've been here since May of
: |
| 3 | 2018. |
| 4 | : Okay, great.
MR.
Just, your |
| 5 | role, you've done a lot of internal |
| 6 | investigations with the prison and you've |
| 7 | worked with the Department of Justice for |
| 8 | MR.
Um-hum.
: |
| 9 | : -- moving forward, just as
MR. |
| 10 | a note for the record, you're aware that |
| 11 | failure to be honest with us today would be |
| 12 | considered a criminal offense; correct? |
| 13 | MR.
Yes.
: |
| 14 | : Okay, great.
MR.
Let's talk a |
| 15 | little bit about some overall policies at the |
| 16 | prison to start with. |
| 17 | Okay.
MR.
: |
| 18 | : So, actually let me back
MR. |
| 19 | up.
We're here today to talk about, |
| 20 | specifically Jeffrey Epstein. |
| 21 | Um-hum.
MR.
: |
| 22 | : The inmate.
MR. |
| 23 | MR.
Um-hum.
: |
| 24 | : Would you mind just
MR. |
| 25 | telling us a little bit about when, your |
1 understanding of when he arrived and that type 2 of, when he arrived, how he was placed, where 3 he was placed, and the reasons behind that? 4 MR. : I don't remember the 5 specific date he arrived, but we didn't, what 6 happened was, we weren't told that he was going 7 to be coming to the institution. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : When he initially came, he 10 was dropped off on the weekend, and we didn't 11 find out until Monday, myself, that he had been 12 placed at the institution. And from then on, 13 we, you know, went through the whole process of 14 the screening, his medical stuff. Just normal 15 procedures that we follow and (Indiscernible 16 \*00:04:04). 17 MR. : Okay. Now when you say 18 "he was dropped off over the weekend", when 19 somebody arrives at the facility, what's the 20 normal -- 21 MR. : I mean typically if 22 somebody's that high profile -- 23 MR. : Um-hum. 24 MR. : -- we should've been 25 notified and said hey, he's coming in. We
1 weren't. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : You know, I mean, we saw it 4 on the news, but it didn't say. They just said 5 they had him in custody, but we didn't get any 6 formal, I didn't get any formal notice that he 7 had been brought into the institution. 8 So, he was dropped off, and you know, the 9 Lieutenant on shift processed him in and 10 brought him into the institution. We didn't 11 find out or realize it until Monday. 12 MR. : So, it was Monday that you 13 first were officially made aware of it? 14 MR. : That I was made aware. You 15 know, we found out, and I don't remember if it 16 was from looking at the news reports, we put it 17 together that he had been brought into the 18 institution. We went through our Monday 19 morning meeting that we went through. So, 20 that's when -- 21 MR. : When he first arrived, was 22 he placed in general population? Do you know 23 where he was placed? 24 MR. : I don't recall where he was 25 placed when he came in.
| 1 | : At some point, he was
MR. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | placed in Special Housing Unit? |
| 3 | MR.
Yes.
: |
| 4 | : Known as the SHU.
MR. |
| 5 | MR.
Right.
: |
| 6 | : how did he end up there?
MR. |
| 7 | MR.
Well, he was a new
: |
| 8 | commitment.
So, we
He was high profile. |
| 9 | placed him in the Special Housing Unit so we |
| 10 | can further evaluate, you know, his status.
Is |
| 11 | he ready for general population?
And we do |
| 12 | that with all inmates, but -- |
| 13 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 14 | -- and then to see, okay,
MR.
: |
| 15 | any separation issues.
Any threats to him, |
| 16 | before we put him out there in general |
| 17 | population. |
| 18 | : Was he ever in genera\]
MR. |
| 19 | population? |
| 20 | MR.
I don't recall.
I don't,
: |
| 21 | I'm not sure if it might've been the first day |
| 22 | when he came in. |
| 23 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 24 | But I'm not sure, so I mean,
MR.
: |
| 25 | I would have to look at the 37 to confirm. |
| | |
| 1 | : But as far as you know,
MR. |
| --- | --------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | that Monday, the first business day after the |
| 3 | weekend he was initially dropped off. |
| 4 | MR.
Right.
: |
| 5 | : From that point forward,
MR. |
| 6 | was he ever in general population? |
| 7 | No.
MR.
: |
| 8 | : Okay.
MR.
What are the |
| 9 | policies in terms of, or is there policy that |
| 10 | dictates when somebody goes into general |
| 11 | population from the SHU after the first |
| 12 | arrival? |
| 13 | MR.
Well, what we do is we
: |
| 14 | evaluate the individual to see if they're ready |
| 15 | for general population, if they can hang, you |
| 16 | know -- |
| 17 | : Um-hum.
MR. |
| 18 | MR.
-- if they can populate.
: |
| 19 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 20 | And it's a number of
MR.
: |
| 21 | I mean, if I have a gang
factors.
It depends. |
| 22 | member coming in, I'm taking into consideration |
| 23 | separation issues on it.
If it's, you know, |
| 24 | somebody that might've been fraud or bank |
| 25 | fraud, then we determine if it's any issues of |
| 1 | them going into the general population.
So, |
| --- | --------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | it's a case-by-case basis on how we determine |
| 3 | it. |
| 4 | : Okay.
MR.
What are the |
| 5 | policies in terms of when you're notified if |
| 6 | someone enters Special Housing Unit or is |
| 7 | discharged from Special Housing Unit? |
| 8 | MR.
Well what it is is, it's
: |
| 9 | routed the individual, it's called a Release |
| 10 | So, several people sign it.
They review
Form. |
| 11 | it.
I believe psychology, CMC, the Captain, |
| 12 | and it goes to the Associate Warden and then |
| 13 | they sign what we call is a Kick-Out.
Meaning |
| 14 | everybody's reviewed it and said, okay, this |
| 15 | person is appropriate for general population. |
| 16 | : Okay.
MR.
For Mr. Epstein, |
| 17 | after that, he was never put in general |
| 18 | population; correct? |
| 19 | :
MR.
No. |
| 20 | : Was the determination to
MR. |
| 21 | keep him in Special Housing?
What was the |
| 22 | communication that goes on there? |
| 23 | MR.
Well we, now initially when
: |
| 24 | he came in, it's the goal to determine, okay, |
| 25 | can they go to general population. |
| | |
| 1 | MR.
Okay.
: |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | MR.
So, between evaluating him,
: |
| 3 | at the same time, we're looking at saying, |
| 4 | okay, can he go to general population. |
| 5 | Um-hum.
MR.
: |
| 6 | MR.
So, it's a dual role that
: |
| 7 | we're going to -- |
| 8 | MR.
Sure.
: |
| 9 | MR.
But I had gotten word, and I
: |
| 10 | don't recall the date, where from my Regional |
| 11 | Director which stated he's not to go to general |
| 12 | population until further notice. |
| 13 | MR.
The Regional Director,
: |
| 14 | where is that in the chain of command for BOP? |
| 15 | MR.
We have five regional
: |
| 16 | offices. |
| 17 | Okay.
MR.
: |
| 18 | Each region has a Regional
MR.
: |
| 19 | Director. |
| 20 | Okay.
MR.
: |
| 21 | This is the Northeast
MR.
: |
| 22 | Region. |
| 23 | MR.
Okay.
: |
| 24 | MR.
Where we have 21
: |
| 25 | So, he supervises and is in
institutions. |
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : Okay. After Mr. 3 told you to keep him, or it was agreed upon 4 MR. : Um-hum. 5 MR. : -- to keep him in Special 6 Housing Unit. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : Who did you notify that he 9 was to stay in the Special Housing Unit? How 10 does that communication -- 11 MR. : So, what it does is I get my 12 exec staff together -- 13 MR. : Um-hum. 14 MR. : -- which is my Associate 15 Wardens, the Captain, my exec, and we have our 16 meetings, and I tell them he's not, you know, 17 lay out the specific instructions. He's not to 18 go out to general population. And -- 19 MR. : Were there, sorry. 20 MR. : Go ahead. 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : And that's basically how we 23 start. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Yeah.
| 1 | : Were there any other
MR. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------ |
| 2 | specific directions or instructions given to |
| 3 | the staff regarding him? |
| 4 | Well, so at the time of him
MR.
: |
| 5 | staying in there, we had to find him initially |
| 6 | a roommate. |
| 7 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 8 | MR.
So, and it's hard especially
: |
| 9 | in Special Housing Unit when you've got gang |
| 10 | members in there that are not appropriate to be |
| 11 | So, we came up with, I came up
housed with. |
| 12 | , who was in there.
with
White |
| 13 | male, probably be able to cope with him.
And |
| 14 | that's typically how we, you know, that's part |
| 15 | of the evaluation process. |
| 16 | : Is it standard for inmates
MR. |
| 17 | in Special Housing Unit to have cellmates? |
| 18 | : We typically would like for
MR. |
| 19 | them to have it. |
| 20 | : Sure.
MR. |
| 21 | MR.
But certain situations
: |
| 22 | If an inmate's a total
dictate that they can. |
| 23 | separation from a group, and we get word from |
| 24 | US Attorney's office or the arresting agents |
| 25 | that, hey, he's to be totally separated, then |
1 they would be housed by themselves. They could 2 have an incident in the institution, you know, 3 for example our gang members, somebody has an 4 issue, and for example, the Bloods, then we 5 have to say hey, let's separate him from there. 6 You know? 7 MR. : Was there any directions 8 specifically that Mr. Epstein was to have a 9 cellmate at all times? 10 MR. : From psychology when 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : -- said hey, that he's 13 required, he needs to have a cellmate at all 14 times. 15 MR. : Okay. And that occurred 16 later on? When he first arrived, there was no 17 specific directions regarding that; correct? 18 MR. : No, it wasn't. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Wait, let me. 21 MR. : Sure. 22 MR. : You mean when he first came 23 in were we talking about him having a cellmate? 24 MR. : Initially. 25 MR. : I don't recall any talks
1 about him. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Initially, and trying to 4 figure out when he first came in, how he was 5 housed. I don't recall how he was housed when 6 he first came in, but -- 7 MR. : Okay. The MCC is no 8 stranger to high profile 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : -- inmates. Generally 11 speaking, how do you normally, or generally 12 handle these type of high profile inmates? Any 13 other special considerations or concerns. How 14 does this work? 15 MR. : Again, you come in. We 16 evaluate him to determine, okay, if they can go 17 out to general population or not. We've had, 18 you know, we've had a bunch that come in that 19 were able to go out. We had (phonetic 20 sp.), you know, the phone that, I don't know if 21 you recall, the one that 22 23 MR. III: (Indiscernible \*00:12:41). 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Him. So, when he first came
| 1 | just going over some of the overall high |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | profile inmates and the general -- |
| 3 | MR.
Um-hum.
: |
| 4 | : -- evaluation of them.
MR. |
| 5 | Going back to, you said earlier that a few |
| 6 | weeks had occurred.
You and the Regional |
| 7 | Director discussed keeping Epstein in the |
| 8 | Special Housing Unit. |
| 9 | MR.
Um-hum.
: |
| 10 | : How often was the Regional
MR. |
| 11 | Director being briefed on Epstein? |
| 12 | MR.
I guess the situation
: |
| 13 | dictated it.
If something happened, then we'd |
| 14 | notify him, or he needed some questions for |
| 15 | him, he would call me.
But I don't want to, |
| 16 | -
don't recall the specific amount of times. |
| 17 | we were in contact. |
| 18 | : Um-hum.
MS. |
| 19 | MR.
Frequent contact.
: |
| 20 | : Okay.
How often were you,
MR. |
| 21 | are you notified differently of high-profile |
| 22 | inmates or how often were you being aware or |
| 23 | notified of Epstein's housing situation? |
| 24 | :
MR.
Well, I mean, he was in the |
| 25 | So, I knew where he was.
Special Housing Unit. |
| | |
| 1 | : Okay.
MR. |
| --- | --------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | So, it wasn't like I had to
MR.
: |
| 3 | be updated as to where he was. I knew where he |
| 4 | was. |
| 5 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 6 | I mean, I knew that he went
MR.
: |
| 7 | on his attorney visits, spent the whole day |
| 8 | Would be the first one in, last one
there. |
| 9 | And then
So, I mean, that's what I knew.
out. |
| 10 | I kind of (Indiscernible \*00:02:06) with the |
| 11 | I had some outside attorneys
attorneys. |
| 12 | complain about, you know, they were taking up |
| 13 | So, I knew that was, you
the attorney room. |
| 14 | know, those issues were coming up with the |
| 15 | attorney room. |
| 16 | : Okay.
Going back to
MR. |
| 17 | general policies at the -- |
| 18 | Um-hum.
MR.
: |
| 19 | : -- within the BOP,
MR. |
| 20 | actually when Epstein arrive -- |
| 21 | Um-hum.
MR.
: |
| 22 | :
I think we already
MR. |
| 23 | covered this, but just to, were any special |
| 24 | arrangements or considerations given to him? |
| 25 | As far as --
MR.
: |
| 1 | : Obviously you said earlier
MR. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------ |
| 2 | he was put in the SHU on Monday. |
| 3 | MR.
Right.
: |
| 4 | : After, was it, at that
MR. |
| 5 | point, was there any issues that you're aware |
| 6 | of regarding him?
Anything that you needed to |
| 7 | be aware of other than just who he was? |
| 8 | Just who he was and the
MR.
No.
: |
| 9 | basic screening.
The intake screening. |
| 10 | : Okay. At the time he
MR. |
| 11 | first arrived, did you have any, was there any |
| 12 | notification of any mental health concerns? |
| 13 | MR.
No, not that I know of.
: |
| 14 | : Okay.
MR.
How |
| 15 | MR.
Are you talking about the
: |
| 16 | weekend he came in, or |
| 17 | : Yeah.
MR. |
| 18 | MR.
(Indiscernible \*00:03:19).
: |
| 19 | : First arrival.
MR. |
| 20 | MR.
That weekend, I don't know.
: |
| 21 | But I know afterwards, he was medically |
| 22 | assessed and they were, you know, our health |
| 23 | service department assessed him and he, I think |
| 24 | he might have told him that he had certain |
| 25 | medications. |
1 MR. : Okay. When -- 2 MR. : -- that he was taking. 3 MR. : When inmates come into the 4 MCC, are they all screened for mental health 5 issues or medical issues? 6 MR. : Well, yes. They come in, 7 you're screened for your medical. The unit 8 team screens you and psychology screens you. 9 But -- 10 MR. : What timeframe does that 11 occur? 12 MR. : Typically like with him, he 13 came in on the weekend. So, it depends if 14 there was a psychologist. Maybe the next day 15 someone would go screen him, the on-call 16 psychologist. But, you know, or Monday if 17 someone came in. But typically the on-call 18 psychologist is there through the weekend and 19 will screen them. 20 MR. : Who is notified of the 21 results of those screenings? 22 MR. : of? 23 MR. : Of the medical screen and 24 psychological screenings, who gets notified of 25 that?
| | 23
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------ |
| 1 | As far as what?
If they
MR.
: |
| 2 | find something in there? |
| 3 | : Yes.
MR. |
| 4 | MR.
Like what would be an
: |
| 5 | I mean
example? |
| 6 | : Any medical concerns that
MR. |
| 7 | people need to be aware of.
Any psychological |
| 8 | How does that information get
issues. |
| 9 | disseminated? |
| 10 | MR.
Because when we talk about
: |
| 11 | medical issues, some of that falls under |
| 12 | privacy issues. |
| 13 | : Um-hum.
MR. |
| 14 | MR.
So, you know, it's not going
: |
| 15 | to be divulged as to -- |
| 16 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 17 | -- just like that.
MR.
: |
| 18 | : Sure.
MR. |
| 19 | But as far as psychological,
MR.
: |
| 20 | if it was something that psychologists did an |
| 21 | interview and said, hey, there's a mental |
| 22 | health issue or something, then she would, you |
| 23 | know, she would let her Associate Warden know. |
| 24 | She would let me know that, hey, there's some |
| 25 | issues. |
| | LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
24 |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | : Okay. And when he first
MR. |
| 2 | arrived, were you made aware of any medical or |
| 3 | mental issues regarding him? |
| 4 | MR.
Mental health, I don't
: |
| 5 | recall any mental health.
But I was told that |
| 6 | he was on certain medications or whatever.
But |
| 7 | It wasn't
it was general. |
| 8 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 9 | -- anything major.
MR.
: |
| 10 | : Okay. And just, and
MR. |
| 11 | that's a general policy for all inmates that |
| 12 | arrive? |
| 13 | MR.
The screening, yeah.
: |
| 14 | : Just the medical
MR. |
| 15 | screening.
They all get that? |
| 16 | Right.
MR.
: |
| 17 | : Is there any, as a result
MR. |
| 18 | of those screenings, is there any, does it have |
| 19 | any bearing on where they're placed, whether |
| 20 | it's special housing or general population? |
| 21 | I mean typically if you do,
MR.
: |
| 22 | like I said, if you do an intake screening and |
| 23 | the individual comes in and they have no |
| 24 | issues, no separation issues, and, you know, |
| 25 | then they can populate like anyone else. But |
| 1 | if there are issues with them going out in |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | general population; i.e., safety issues, then |
| 3 | you would be placed in the Special Housing. |
| 4 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 5 | MR.
Until we could further
: |
| 6 | evaluate if you could go to general population. |
| 7 | : If someone during the
MR. |
| 8 | mental health screening, the mental health, the |
| 9 | psychologist deemed them to be suicidal -- |
| 10 | MR.
Okay.
: |
| 11 | : -- what are the suicidal
MR. |
| 12 | watch policies as it relates to that? |
| 13 | So, if the psychologist was
MR.
: |
| 14 | to say, hey, they're suicidal, then they would |
| 15 | be placed on suicide watch. |
| 16 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 17 | Now if the psychologist is
MR.
: |
| 18 | not there and someone exhibits suicidal |
| 19 | ideations or statements or thoughts, then |
| 20 | they're placed on suicide watch. |
| 21 | : Can you explain to me what
MR. |
| 22 | suicide watch is, where it is in the MCC -- |
| 23 | MR.
It's on the second floor of
: |
| 24 | the institution, on the same floor of the |
| 25 | hospital. |
| 1 | there.
An inmate. |
| --- | -------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | : In the cell?
MR. |
| 3 | Outside the cell.
MR.
No.
: |
| 4 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 5 | It's a cell where you sit
MR.
: |
| 6 | and observe. |
| 7 | : Okay.
Is the companion
MR. |
| 8 | another inmate or a staff? |
| 9 | No, it's a trained inmate
MR.
: |
| 10 | companion.
Now, we have four cells.
If those |
| 11 | cells get full, then we have to move them up to |
| 12 | the Special Housing Unit and then put a staff |
| 13 | watch on them. |
| 14 | : Okay.
MR.
What policies are |
| 15 | in place for suicide watch as it relates to |
| 16 | staff response, notification, how people get |
| 17 | notified, if they're moving from suicide watch |
| 18 | to off suicide watch.
How does that work? |
| 19 | That works through
MR.
: |
| 20 | psychology. |
| 21 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 22 | MR.
Psychology evaluates and
: |
| 23 | they'll say, okay, we've evaluated him and, you |
| 24 | know, wherever we're going, typically you |
| 25 | always usually go from the Special Housing Unit |
| | LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
28 |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | to suicide. So, they'd say, okay you know |
| 2 | what, they're ready to go back up. |
| 3 | : Okay.
MR.
What role, how does |
| 4 | the program, is the psychologist the program |
| 5 | coordinator? |
| 6 | : The chief psychologist runs
MR. |
| 7 | the department. |
| 8 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 9 | And then she has various
MR.
: |
| 10 | psychologists that work under her. |
| 11 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 12 | MR.
And then evaluate because we
: |
| 13 | have a different mission as far as we have a |
| 14 | So, we get a lot of forensic
forensic mission. |
| 15 | studies in the institution. |
| 16 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 17 | MR.
And then we have a regular
: |
| 18 | psychologist also that handles the inmate |
| 19 | population but they work together and they |
| 20 | handle everything. |
| 21 | : Okay.
MR.
Who's ultimately |
| 22 | responsible for placing somebody on suicide |
| 23 | watch or off suicide watch? |
| 24 | MR.
Well placing it, a staff
: |
| 25 | member comes and says hey, this guy is |
| 1 | suicidal.
You can place him on suicide watch. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------ |
| 2 | : Okay. Anybody in the
MR. |
| 3 | institution can do that? |
| 4 | MR.
If I come upon an
Yeah.
: |
| 5 | inmate that's saying, "Hey, I'm going to kill |
| 6 | myself." Okay, we get him on suicide watch. |
| 7 | Psychology comes and, you know, evaluates them |
| 8 | and then comes up with a plan. |
| 9 | : Within the psychology
MR. |
| 10 | department -- |
| 11 | MR.
Um-hum.
: |
| 12 | : -- or the medical
MR. |
| 13 | department there in mental health, who there |
| 14 | ultimately makes that decision? |
| 15 | MR.
I believe, and don't quote
: |
| 16 | me on this.
I believe the psychologists. |
| 17 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 18 | MR.
You know, they're trained
: |
| 19 | professionals.
So, they can make a decision |
| 20 | and they consult with the Chief in, you know, |
| 21 | determining okay what's the plan of action to |
| 22 | move forward. |
| 23 | : And are you, when
MR. |
| 24 | someone's placed in suicide watch, are you |
| 25 | notified of that? |
| | LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
30 |
| --- | ---------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | They send out a form
MR.
Yeah.
: |
| 2 | every day stating like who's on suicide watch, |
| 3 | So --
who's on psyche observation. |
| 4 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 5 | -- we're aware of who it is
MR.
: |
| 6 | and then they'll send out a form if there's no |
| 7 | one on there. |
| 8 | : You said earlier that
MR. |
| 9 | while on suicide watch, there was an observer. |
| 10 | MR.
Right.
: |
| 11 | : How does an inmate become
MR. |
| 12 | an observer? |
| 13 | MR.
It's an inmate companion.
: |
| 14 | : A companion, I'm sorry.
MR. |
| 15 | MR.
So, it's a trained program.
: |
| 16 | So, they have to go through training.
They |
| 17 | have to take courses, and then they become |
| 18 | eligible to become a companion. |
| 19 | : Who authorizes the use of
MR. |
| 20 | an inmate companion? |
| 21 | MR.
The psychology department
: |
| 22 | So --
runs that. |
| 23 | : Do you have any input as
MR. |
| 24 | the Warden in selecting or training or |
| 25 | implementing the inmate companion program? |
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Clinical Director is a 3 separate position. 4 MR. : Okay. I apologize for 5 that. 6 MR. : That's fine. 7 MR. : Thank you for clarifying. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Who in the medical staff, 10 just for my clarification, who in the medical 11 staff is ultimately responsible for removing 12 somebody from suicide watch? 13 MR. : The psychology department 14 determines to remove somebody from -- 15 MR. : So, who in the psychology 16 department? 17 MR. : Again, it depends on who's 18 evaluating the inmate. 19 MR. : Okay. So -- 20 MR. : And so we have one, two, 21 three, really we have, (Indiscernible 22 \*00:12:26), uh, four. We have four 23 psychologists on staff. 24 MR. : You have four 25 psychologists on staff. And any one of those
| 1 | with your decision, then we debate it and then |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | we ultimately come to a decision. |
| 3 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 4 | MR.
As to yay or nay.
: |
| 5 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 6 | So, it's kind of the same
MR.
: |
| 7 | thing. |
| 8 | : While on suicide watch,
MR. |
| 9 | you said there's a 24-hour companion.
What |
| 10 | does staff do for the inmates while they're on |
| 11 | suicide watch? |
| 12 | MR.
Well we have a camera, well
: |
| 13 | they're trained to, there's a phone there.
So, |
| 14 | let's say something happened where an inmate's |
| 15 | trying to do harm to himself.
They pick up the |
| 16 | phone and they call for assistance, because it |
| 17 | goes directly to control center, and we respond |
| 18 | accordingly to it. |
| 19 | But we also in our control center, while |
| 20 | the individual is on suicide watch, there's a |
| 21 | camera there. |
| 22 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 23 | MR.
To view
: |
| 24 | : What specific training
MR. |
| 25 | does staff get as it relates to the suicide |
1 watch? 2 MR. : Once a year during our 3 annual training, we have suicide prevention 4 training. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : During our annual training. 7 MR. : And that's required for 8 all -- 9 MR. : All employees. 10 MR. : What does that training 11 cover? 12 MR. : Suicide signs, prevention, 13 coping, just anything pertaining to suicide, 14 sir. Signs to look for. 15 MR. : Um-hum. 16 MR. : Um -- 17 MR. : Is there any specific 18 staff that are more trained, or specifically 19 trained for this area of the prison? 20 MR. : Our Special Housing Unit 21 staff get quarterly suicide prevention 22 training. 23 MR. : Okay. Is that part of 24 something the MCC does independent, or is that 25 policy dictated? How does that --
| | LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
36 |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | MR.
That's our policy dictates
: |
| 2 | that they get quarterly training. |
| 3 | : Okay.
MR.
That's BOP policy; |
| 4 | correct? |
| 5 | MR.
Yes.
: |
| 6 | : Okay.
MR.
When someone, you |
| 7 | said that any staff member at the BOP can place |
| 8 | somebody on suicide watch? |
| 9 | MR.
Yes.
: |
| 10 | : Is there any paperwork or
MR. |
| 11 | documentation for that that they have to fill |
| 12 | out? |
| 13 | MR.
Basically they'll tell
No.
: |
| 14 | that, you know, that hey we need to place him |
| 15 | on watch, and we'll place him on watch, and |
| 16 | then we'll contact psychology. |
| 17 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 18 | To come in and talk to them.
MR.
: |
| 19 | : Okay.
MR.
There's no referral |
| 20 | that says, "I placed inmate" -- |
| 21 | MR.
Psychology will handle
No.
: |
| 22 | it -- |
| 23 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 24 | -- here and there, in their
MR.
: |
| 25 | notes and their documentation that they were |
| 1 | placed on it, when they were placed on it. |
| --- | ---------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | : So, the psychology
MR. |
| 3 | department is responsible for documenting when |
| 4 | people come in in treatment. |
| 5 | MR.
We, you know, we have what
: |
| 6 | we call a daily log in the |
| 7 | : Um-hum.
MR. |
| 8 | -- institution.
MR.
So, the log
: |
| 9 | would annotate somebody was placed on suicide |
| 10 | watch also. |
| 11 | : Okay.
Is there any
MR. |
| 12 | specific forms or reports that get filled out |
| 13 | when somebody is removed from suicide watch? |
| 14 | I believe psychology would
MR.
: |
| 15 | do those forms and saying in their reports why |
| 16 | they were removed and if they're ready to be |
| 17 | released. |
| 18 | : Do you get those forms?
MR. |
| 19 | MR.
I don't get the special
: |
| 20 | I just, with the notification
medical ones. |
| 21 | that, you know, with the one that email that |
| 22 | goes out -- |
| 23 | : Um-hum.
MR. |
| 24 | MR.
-- that the individual was
: |
| 25 | released from suicide watch. |
| 1 | : Do you get notified, you
MR. |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | just said you get notified in the email that |
| 3 | somebody's removed or -- |
| 4 | MR.
It's an email that the
: |
| 5 | psychology department puts out stating who's on |
| 6 | suicide watch, who's been removed. |
| 7 | : Is that a daily list?
MR. |
| 8 | Like they send it once a day, or when someone |
| 9 | new comes on and off?
How does that |
| 10 | MR.
It's a daily one. And --
: |
| 11 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 12 | MR.
And it states who's on
: |
| 13 | watch, who's, you know, who's got released, and |
| 14 | |
| 15 | : Who does that get
MR. |
| 16 | disseminated to? |
| 17 | :
MR.
It's a group.
It's a group |
| 18 | email that gets sent to all department heads, |
| 19 | Captain, Lieutenants, everybody in the need to |
| 20 | know. |
| 21 | : This is the supervisors
MR. |
| 22 | within the institution?
The Lieutenants, the |
| 23 | Captain. |
| 24 | MR.
(Indiscernible \*00:17:07).
: |
| 25 | : Okay.
MR. |
| | LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
39 |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | MR.
And, don't quote me on that,
: |
| 2 | but I need to look at the chain -- |
| 3 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 4 | -- to see who's actually on
MR.
: |
| 5 | But --
it. |
| 6 | : But it's not an
MR. |
| 7 | institution-wide email? |
| 8 | It is kind of sent out
MR.
: |
| 9 | institution wide because you have the different |
| 10 | So, you can say it's
departments on it. |
| 11 | institution wide. |
| 12 | : Not every person in the
MR. |
| 13 | institution gets that email, though? |
| 14 | MR.
I don't --
No.
: |
| 15 | : Okay.
Just not an MCC all
MR. |
| 16 | type of -- |
| 17 | MR.
No, it's not an all staff.
: |
| 18 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 19 | Yeah.
MR.
: |
| 20 | : What is the expectation of
MR. |
| 21 | the department heads and the supervisors and |
| 22 | the Lieutenants and Captains once they get this |
| 23 | What are they supposed to do with that?
email? |
| 24 | MR.
I mean, it's just a
: |
| 25 | notification that the individual's being |
| 1 | So, it depends on
removed from suicide watch. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | where they're going.
So, if they're going back |
| 3 | to Special Housing Unit, so it's notification |
| 4 | We
that hey, this person's been taken off. |
| 5 | have nobody on watch right now. |
| 6 | : Okay. Are they supposed
MR. |
| 7 | What are they supposed to
to disseminate that? |
| 8 | do with that information?
Are they supposed to |
| 9 | tell anybody where they -- |
| 10 | MR.
Well, I mean when that
: |
| 11 | individual is released -- |
| 12 | : Um-hum.
MR. |
| 13 | MR.
Wherever they're going for,
: |
| 14 | they're going to be notified by psychology that |
| 15 | they're coming directly -- |
| 16 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 17 | -- to you.
MR.
: |
| 18 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 19 | So, it was just an
MR.
: |
| 20 | accountability -- |
| 21 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 22 | MR.
-- thing just to know that
: |
| 23 | hey, this person is getting off of watch. |
| 24 | : So, psychology will notify
MR. |
| 25 | whatever unit they're going back to? |
1 MR. : Well, it depends where 2 you're going back to. Typically I always go to 3 Special Housing Unit down. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : And typically when you do, 6 let's say an individual has tried to commit 7 suicide. It's an infraction. So, they usually 8 have an incident report that goes beyond that. 9 So, you have to come up to the Special Housing 10 Unit anyway before so that that infraction can 11 be resolved. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : So, there are a number of 14 aspects of, you know, how. Did you go straight 15 back or if you don't go back there. 16 MR. : And this email that 17 psychology sends out with the list of who's in 18 and who's out of suicide watch -- 19 MR. : Who's on watch, yeah? 20 MR. : -- is that once a day or 21 twice a day? Is that morning and evening 22 thing? 23 MR. : It depends. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : When you come in in the
1 morning, they could say, you know, this is 2 who's on watch, and then you get another one 3 stating who's been released off of watch. 4 MR. : Okay. Is there any policy 5 or standard operation procedure on how 6 (Indiscernible \*00:19:21) that email gets sent 7 out? 8 MR. : How what? 9 MR. : How frequent that email -- 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Okay. But it should be at 12 least once a day? 13 MR. : That's when they send it 14 out. I don't -- 15 MR. : Okay. When somebody is 16 removed from Special Housing -- 17 MR. : Um-hum. 18 MR. -- and placed in suicide 19 watch on the second floor -- 20 MR. : Um-hum. 21 MR. -- is anything done to 22 their cell in Special Housing? Is there any 23 precautions or anything that go into that? 24 MR. : So, typically let's say you 25 do leave, and it depends on how much space we
| 1 | have.
We really don't have that much space. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 3 | MR.
So, usually that cell,
: |
| 4 | depending on if when they were removed from the |
| 5 | cell, if they had a cellmate.
So, what happens |
| 6 | is that individual's property is removed, and |
| 7 | we could possibly put somebody else in that |
| 8 | cell. |
| 9 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 10 | MR.
Um --
: |
| 11 | : And again, the suicide
MR. |
| 12 | watch versus psychological, the psyche eval |
| 13 | that, you said that happened right away when |
| 14 | someone first comes in the prison; correct? |
| 15 | Well I --
MR.
: |
| 16 | : A psyche eval?
MR. |
| 17 | MR.
I didn't say what you
: |
| 18 | You said --
said before that. |
| 19 | : A psychological eval.
MR. |
| 20 | Okay.
MR.
: |
| 21 | : I want to clarify, earlier
MR. |
| 22 | you said that people, inmates get that when |
| 23 | they first come into the prison; correct? |
| 24 | MR.
Psychologically when
Yeah.
: |
| 25 | they initially have to come and actually |
| 1 | perform -- |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------ |
| 2 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 3 | -- an initial intake
MR.
: |
| 4 | screening. |
| 5 | : Is there a level below
MR. |
| 6 | suicide watch? |
| 7 | MR.
Well we also have what we
: |
| 8 | call a psyche observation. |
| 9 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 10 | MR.
And I think the best way to
: |
| 11 | describe that would be it's a step-down from |
| 12 | For example, we might have a
suicide watch. |
| 13 | mental health inmate that is just mentally, you |
| 14 | know, out there.
So, we'll put them on psyche |
| 15 | They haven't said they're going
observation. |
| 16 | to hurt themselves, but they have the potential |
| 17 | to do it. |
| 18 | Somebody might be on narcotics and acting |
| 19 | erratic and you don't know what they're on. |
| 20 | So, they might end up doing it.
But it's a |
| 21 | different type of observation because it's not |
| 22 | as stringent as suicide watch. |
| 23 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 24 | : Can you explain what that
MS. |
| 25 | What are the requirements when an
means? |
1 inmate is on psyche eval, or psyche 2 observation? 3 MR. : If they're on psyche 4 observation, we are not necessarily putting 5 them in a smock. You know? You can still have 6 your regular clothing. We're just observing 7 your behavior and that. So, that's the 8 difference. 9 MS. : And does the psychologist 10 stop by every day? 11 MR. : They're treated the same way 12 as somebody that's on suicide watch. They're 13 evaluated, come up with a plan. They're ready 14 to be released. Keep them on, more along those 15 lines. 16 MS. : Well is someone on psyche 17 evaluation, do they have an inmate companion 18 watching them? 19 MR. : Psyche obs also has an 20 inmate companion. So, anybody in that area has 21 an inmate watching them. 22 MR. : As the Warden, do you have 23 any input on the determinate if someone's in 24 psychological observation, in suicide watch or 25 observation status? Do you have any input on
1 that? 2 MR. : I don't overrule medical 3 decisions. I'm not a doctor. 4 MR. : Um-hum. 5 MR. : If they come to me and say 6 this is warranted whether it's medical care or 7 not, I don't -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : But you're briefed on it? 10 MR. : I'm briefed on it. Yes. 11 MS. : Is that orally? 12 MR. : Orally they'll come and say, 13 well we'll discuss an inmate saying, hey, he 14 has mental issues. I feel that they need to be 15 placed here or there. And I'm going with your 16 evaluation. I'm not going to, and I have good 17 psychologists. So, I trust their judgment. 18 MS. : Can an inmate be taken off 19 of suicide watch by Dr. or her staff 20 without consulting you? 21 MR. : They can. The doctor 22 decides who's coming off of watch. So, they 23 can make the determination and, you know, they 24 send up to the Associate Warden, the Captain, 25 and it will come to release and if they're
| 1 | So, it doesn't --
going off it. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------ |
| 2 | : But do they --
MS. |
| 3 | MR.
-- have to necessarily, it's
: |
| 4 | not my approval. |
| 5 | : Do they typically consult
MS. |
| 6 | you when that happens? |
| 7 | Depending on, you know, if
MR.
: |
| 8 | Who it is, you might
it's the case, you know? |
| 9 | be, like I said, a high profile individual they |
| 10 | would say, "Hey, we're taking him off of watch. |
| 11 | We're doing this." So, we'll be following the |
| 12 | plan closely, so -- |
| 13 | : When it comes to Epstein,
MR. |
| 14 | Jeffrey Epstein -- |
| 15 | MR.
Um-hum.
: |
| 16 | : -- he was in the mental
MR. |
| 17 | Can you just tell us your
health program. |
| 18 | understanding of his involvement with the |
| 19 | psychologist at MCC? |
| 20 | MR.
Um, let me back-track.
: |
| 21 | : Sure.
MR. |
| 22 | MR.
It's not a mental health
: |
| 23 | program. |
| 24 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 25 | MR.
Um --
: |
| | LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
48 |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | : Sorry.
MR. |
| 2 | MR.
Being, I guess, reviewed by
: |
| 3 | psychology -- |
| 4 | : Sure.
MR. |
| 5 | MR.
-- they're following him.
: |
| 6 | He was on their case. |
| 7 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 8 | MR.
And you want to know what I
: |
| 9 | knew about it? |
| 10 | : Yes.
MR. |
| 11 | MR.
Again, he was under their
: |
| 12 | They were evaluating him, and, you know,
care. |
| 13 | going through their protocol to determine why |
| 14 | he was on watch.
If he was on suicide watch, |
| 15 | can he come off of suicide watch?
Was he |
| 16 | Things like that.
suicidal? |
| 17 | : At any time, were you
MR. |
| 18 | aware or notified of him being suicidal or |
| 19 | having any suicidal ideations or attempts? |
| 20 | MR.
Well we had an incident
: |
| 21 | where he was in the cell with |
| 22 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 23 | -- that it might've been a
MR.
: |
| 24 | suicide attempt and it might not have been a |
| 25 | So, we followed the protocols
suicide attempt. |
| | |
| 1 | and put him on watch.
There was also an |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | internal investigation where he was interviewed |
| 3 | and his cellmate was interviewed, and he |
| 4 | basically denied (Indiscernible \*00:25:35). |
| 5 | : When you say "he denied",
MR. |
| 6 | |
| 7 | MR.
He said --
: |
| 8 | : -- or Epstein?
MR. |
| 9 | MR.
No, Epstein stated that,
: |
| 10 | "Hey, I didn't try to kill myself." And then |
| 11 | said that he was sitting in the |
| 12 | cell.
He thought he was having a heart attack. |
| 13 | So, I forget the words psychology used to |
| 14 | determine what their conclusion was as far as |
| 15 | the actual act. |
| 16 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 17 | : Did you review the
MS. |
| 18 | incident report for the suicide attempt? |
| 19 | MR.
I reviewed the investigative
: |
| 20 | report that the Lieutenant interviewed both of |
| 21 | them, took their statements, and all that |
| 22 | because the review process goes from, the |
| 23 | Lieutenant initiates it.
It goes to the |
| 24 | And
Captain, Associate Warden, and myself. |
| 25 | then I, uh, sign off on it. |
| 1 | : Did you speak with Dr.
MS. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | after she had consulted with Mr. Epstein |
| 3 | when he was placed on suicide watch? |
| 4 | MR.
Um, yes.
We have SHU
: |
| 5 | meetings, and we have it once a week, and |
| 6 | Epstein was brought up, and she talked about |
| 7 | Mr. Epstein. |
| 8 | : After the suicide attempt?
MS. |
| 9 | MR.
Yes.
: |
| 10 | : What day of the week is
MS. |
| 11 | the SHU thing typically? |
| 12 | MR.
It's Thursdays.
: |
| 13 | : All right and
MS. |
| 14 | MR.
Right.
: |
| 15 | : -- what happens at the SHU
MS. |
| 16 | meetings? |
| 17 | MR.
It's a list where we go
: |
| 18 | around and we talk about every inmate.
We have |
| 19 | inmates that are in there for infractions, |
| 20 | criminal issues, from your office, a high |
| 21 | profile guy might come in. So, we just talk |
| 22 | If we call in
about, okay, what's the status. |
| 23 | a disciplinary citation, that means they've |
| 24 | been sanctioned and they're doing time, and |
| 25 | then we look at the release date.
We have some |
1 in there pending investigations. Cellphone 2 introduction. Drug introduction. So, that 3 goes through the investigative process, and 4 then we have, you know, we also have our SAMS 5 (phonetic sp.) inmates that are housed in 6 there. 7 So, we basically discuss and talk about 8 every inmate. 9 MS. : And who attends these 10 meetings? 11 MR. : Myself, all the Associate 12 Wardens, the Unit Managers, psychology, the 13 Captain, the SHU Lieutenant, the Investigative 14 Lieutenant. So, we just have everyone there 15 that's involved in the -- 16 MS. : And what's your 17 understanding of whether the SHU Lieutenant or 18 the Captain brief out the duty Officers in the 19 SHU about the outcome of that SHU meeting every 20 week. 21 MR. : I don't understand what you 22 mean. 23 MS. : So, do you have an 24 understanding of whether, because the duty 25 Officers are not present in the SHU meeting;
1 correct? 2 MR. : No. 3 MS. : Do you have an 4 understanding of how, for instance, if you tell 5 the Lieutenant, I want this done in the SHU, 6 will the Lieutenant then tell his duty Officers 7 after the meeting? 8 MR. : Well, the duty officer is 9 supposed to make rounds throughout the 10 institution when they're on duty to observe and 11 report if anything is not right. And then if 12 we have incidents, they make notifications, you 13 know, to the region. 14 MS. : To the region? 15 MR. : To, like let's say we have a 16 fight. 17 MS. : Um-hum. 18 MR. : Or maybe like you said, a 19 suicide attempt. So, they have to contact the 20 Regional Duty Officer. That's their 21 notification. They make the Regional Duty 22 Officer, and then it moves up the chain that 23 way, and then I have to make my notifications, 24 which I make my notifications to the Regional 25 Director.
| 1 | : Okay. And my question is,
MS. |
| --- | --------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | does any information, do you have an |
| 3 | understanding of whether any information that's |
| 4 | conveyed in these SHU meetings gets briefed |
| 5 | down to the line Officers who are responsible |
| 6 | for patrolling the SHU? |
| 7 | MR.
Right.
: |
| 8 | : It does?
MS. |
| 9 | MR.
The SHU Lieutenant is
Yeah.
: |
| 10 | there, and he's in the meeting, he or she is in |
| 11 | the meeting, and they're talking to their staff |
| 12 | on what needs to be done or the status, you |
| 13 | We're going in and we determine if
know. |
| 14 | somebody can be released, then that will be |
| 15 | conveyed back that hey, an individual can be |
| 16 | released. |
| 17 | : So, you were saying that
MS. |
| 18 | after the July 23rd
suicide attempt, there was a |
| 19 | Thursday SHU meeting? |
| 20 | Right.
MR.
: |
| 21 | : In which Dr.
MS. |
| 22 | discussed at least her initial observations of |
| 23 | Mr. Epstein? |
| 24 | MR.
Well, she would initially
: |
| 25 | discuss it there, but she would also initially, |
| | |
| | LIMITED OFFICIAL USE |
| --- | ---------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | whoever, you know, if the Warden is there, |
| 2 | initiate it to the AW.
So, that would be |
| 3 | something immediate that she would say, hey, |
| 4 | he's on watch and this happened. |
| 5 | : And what happened at that
MS. |
| 6 | first SHU meeting after the suicide attempt? |
| 7 | MR.
The week of July 22'd
to the
: |
| 8 | 26th, I was on leave. |
| 9 | : Okay.
MS. |
| 10 | So, I was, you know, I was
MR.
: |
| 11 | getting called.
So, I don't know the |
| 12 | specifics, but I was aware of, you know, I got |
| 13 | called that hey, there was an attempt and the |
| 14 | protocols were followed. |
| 15 | : Okay.
MS. |
| 16 | MR.
Notifications were made.
: |
| 17 | : Okay. So, the following
MS. |
| 18 | week which I think is the week of the 29". |
| 19 | The 29k" or the 30th, yeah.
MR.
: |
| 20 | : You were back in the
MS. |
| 21 | office? |
| 22 | MR.
So, if you
That Monday.
: |
| 23 | have a calendar, I can look at it. |
| 24 | : I think it's the 29th
MS. |
| 25 | So, the 29th
MR.
is a
So, yeah.
: |
| 1 | I have to check, did I take a extra
Monday. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------ |
| 2 | I'm not sure, but the 29th, I
day or not? |
| 3 | should've, I would've been back. |
| 4 | : So, that Thursday meeting
MS. |
| 5 | which looks like would've been August 13', you |
| 6 | were present at? |
| 7 | MR.
Yes.
: |
| 8 | : And what was discussed
MS. |
| 9 | during the SHU meeting? |
| 10 | MR.
The SHU meeting, we'll
: |
| 11 | discuss every inmate.
Every inmate on the |
| 12 | list, what's their status?
Updates and all |
| 13 | that stuff. |
| 14 | : Okay. And specifically
MS. |
| 15 | with respect to Epstein, what was discussed? |
| 16 | I don't recall specifically.
MR.
: |
| 17 | I know we would've talked about him.
We |
| 18 | would've probably talked about, you know, his |
| 19 | psychological status and I got to remember on |
| 20 | the first, he was probably back in the Special |
| 21 | Housing Unit.
So, we were probably, you know, |
| 22 | talking about his housing conditions, what's he |
| 23 | doing, and usually the conversation was during |
| 24 | the day he was down at the attorney visits, you |
| 25 | know? |
| 1 | And then there were certain exams that we |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | had to do that we wanted to get done on him. |
| 3 | And then we discussed that. |
| 4 | : Uh, what kind of exams?
MS. |
| 5 | MR.
Physicals and then, you
: |
| 6 | know, and I don't know if that was before or |
| 7 | after his sleep apnea machine that he was, you |
| 8 | know, requesting. |
| 9 | : Um-hum.
MS. |
| 10 | MR.
Because typically, you know,
: |
| 11 | you have to go through the fitting and the |
| 12 | process, but, you know, we allowed that one to |
| 13 | come in.
We checked it, security wise, and |
| 14 | said it was fine to come in, and we got it. |
| 15 | So, I think we might have been discussing that, |
| 16 | more along those lines. |
| 17 | But we discuss every inmate in there.
I |
| 18 | don't specifically remember it.
I know we |
| 19 | would've talked about what the issues were |
| 20 | pertaining to him. |
| 21 | : Um, let's go back to
MS. |
| 22 | Um-hum.
MR.
: |
| 23 | : -- the suicide attempt.
MS. |
| 24 | MR.
Okay.
: |
| 25 | : You said that you were on
MS. |
1 leave that week, but you were notified by your 2 Associate Warden? 3 MR. : Associate Warden, yes. 4 MS. : Okay. Were you receiving 5 daily updates? 6 MR. : Not, I mean, they called me 7 during the day the first time that it happened. 8 Hey, this is what happened. He's on watch. 9 And then the next day, you know, he was still 10 on watch. So, there was really no, I didn't 11 need that much updates because we knew he was 12 on watch. 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : Um -- 15 MS. : And you notified your 16 Regional Director? 17 MR. : I notified my Regional 18 Director. And then while I was on leave, my 19 Regional Director was also in contact with my 20 acting AW. 21 MS. : Did the -- 22 MR. : Acting Warden, I'm sorry. 23 MS. : Did the Regional Director 24 convey any directions to your AW during that 25 time?
| 1 | are we going to house him with? |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | : Um-hum.
MS. |
| 3 | MR.
You know, coming to that
: |
| 4 | decision and then that would give her more time |
| 5 | to work with him if she needed. |
| 6 | : Okay.
MS.
Did you have a |
| 7 | discussion with Dr.
about whether she |
| 8 | felt he was still suicidal? |
| 9 | Again, if the psychologist
MR.
: |
| 10 | tells me that he's ready and he goes, I don't |
| 11 | question medical judgment.
I trust her |
| 12 | judgement.
If she says he's not suicidal and |
| 13 | he's ready to go back, then we trust her |
| 14 | judgment. |
| 15 | : And she did --
MS. |
| 16 | Because she --
MR.
: |
| 17 | : -- tell you that?
MS. |
| 18 | MR.
She said he was ready to go
: |
| 19 | back.
He wasn't suicidal and that he was ready |
| 20 | to go back. |
| 21 | : Did you review any of her
MS. |
| 22 | reports or the psychologist's reports -- |
| 23 | MR.
I don't --
: |
| | |
| 24 | : -- during the time he was
MS. |
1 MR. : No. I don't review any 2 medical files. 3 MS. : And he came back to the 4 SHU on the 30th, is that right? 5 MR. : Uh, yes. 6 MS. : Okay. 7 MR. : Um-hum. 8 MS. : And what discussions did 9 you have, let's start with Dr. , about 10 the conditions of his confinement in the SHU? 11 MR. : She just said to get him in, 12 you know, we're going to put him, get him a 13 cellmate because typically every inmate that, 14 you know, is on suicide or whatever, we say, 15 okay, we're going to give him a cellmate. So, 16 that was when we went through the process of 17 figuring out, okay, who could we possibly put 18 him in with? Um, the pickings were slim. 19 So, I came up with, and no 20 wait, no. , he had been put down 21 there originally because of 22 MS. : Um-hum. 23 MR. : So, what happened was, we 24 had to come up with some more inmates. So, 25 came up with three. It was, I believe,
| 1 | , and who was the other one?
We had |
| --- | ---------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | another sex offender in there that we were |
| 3 | going to put him in there, and he said, "If he |
| 4 | comes in here, it's going to be a problem." |
| 5 | So, we didn't put him in there. |
| 6 | So, we ended up putting
in there. |
| 7 | : Um-hum.
MS. |
| 8 | MR. -:
, an older gentleman. |
| 9 | He couldn't be in the institution because it |
| 10 | was cooperating, so we figured that was a good |
| 11 | fit, and then I sent an email of the three to |
| 12 | the Director's Chief of Staff I sent an email |
| 13 | to. |
| 14 | : And what is his name?
MS. |
| 15 | MR.
(phonetic |
| 16 | sp.). |
| 17 | : Okay. And so you emailed
MS. |
| 18 | him, here are the three -- |
| 19 | : Here are the three --
MR. |
| 20 | : -- possible --
MS. |
| 21 | possible ones.
MR.
: |
| 22 | : Okay.
MS. |
| 23 | MR.
Right.
: |
| 24 | : Did you tell
MS. |
| 25 | MR. -: |
| | |
1 MS. : Did you tell Mr. 2 that he needed to have a cellmate? 3 MR. : Yes. That's what the 4 discussion was, for a cellmate. So, I sent 5 that up, spoke with my Regional Director. 6 believe he received it too, and came to the 7 conclusion would probably be the best fit 8 for him. So, we put him in the cell with 9 10 MS. : Is there a policy about 11 whether an inmate needs to have a cellmate 12 after they've been taken off of suicide watch? 13 MR. : There's no policy, but it's 14 sound correctional judgment. I mean even if an 15 individual is not on suicide watch, and you're 16 in the Special Housing Unit, you typically want 17 somebody in there with them. 18 MS. : Um-hum. 19 MR. : Because, I mean, you never 20 know what could happen. So, just for somebody 21 to talk to, you know, pass the time. So, you 22 typically put somebody in there unless again 23 we're in a situation where they're just totally 24 separated from somebody -- 25 MS. : Um-hum.
| 1 | -- and we can't put them in
MR. |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | there because it becomes a life safety issue. |
| 3 | : How long after someone is
MS. |
| 4 | taken off suicide watch would you typically |
| 5 | direct that they have a cellmate? |
| 6 | MR.
It would depend on the
: |
| 7 | situation, because you could be getting |
| 8 | released to a unit where you would |
| 9 | automatically have a cellmate going through, or |
| 10 | you know, direction could put out that, hey, |
| 11 | make sure the individual has a cellmate. |
| 12 | So, there's no really timeframe on when |
| 13 | you would decide that. |
| 14 | : Just to clarify, as it
MR. |
| 15 | relates to, I know you guys just discussed |
| 16 | this, but just making sure I'm following you |
| 17 | guys correctly.
As it relates to the first |
| 18 | suicide attempt back on July 23'd, Mr. Epstein. |
| 19 | Right.
MR.
: |
| 20 | : You were on leave.
MR. |
| 21 | MR.
Yeah, the 22dd.
: |
| 22 | : You were notified via
MR. |
| 23 | telephone of this, and you notified the |
| 24 | Regional Director.
Is that correct? |
| 25 | Yeah, of the, yeah, I did
MR.
: |
| 1 | process, notifying, hey, he's coming off watch. |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | He's going to the Special Housing Unit. |
| 3 | : Um-hum.
MR. |
| 4 | MR.
And he's going to get a
: |
| 5 | roommate. |
| 6 | : Other than your Regional
MR. |
| 7 | Director, did you notify anybody else? |
| 8 | MR.
That he was coming off
: |
| 9 | : Yes.
MR. |
| 10 | -- or talk about it?
MR.
: |
| 11 | : Yep.
MR. |
| 12 | My exec staff.
MR.
Yeah.
: |
| 13 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 14 | MR.
And said that, you know,
: |
| 15 | what the expectation was that, you know, he's |
| 16 | going to have a cellmate. |
| 17 | : So, you told, during that
MR. |
| 18 | meeting, do you recall when that meeting was? |
| 19 | MR.
I don't recall when the
: |
| 20 | meeting was, but I just told them, hey, he |
| 21 | needs to have a cellmate.
This is his |
| 22 | Cellmate at all times.
cellmate.
And, you |
| 23 | know, put it out to your -- |
| 24 | : Okay.
Um --
MR. |
| 25 | : Put it out to your people?
MS. |
| | 69
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | MR.
To the departments and your
: |
| 2 | areas of responsibility on that's how he was |
| 3 | going to be housed. |
| 4 | : And who did you
MS. |
| 5 | specifically tell that to? |
| 6 | My Associate Wardens were in
MR.
: |
| 7 | there, whoever was acting, the Captain because |
| 8 | that specifically falls under his area. |
| 9 | : Um-hum.
MS. |
| 10 | I
MR.
The Special Housing Unit.
: |
| 11 | told him specifically he needs to be housed |
| 12 | alone.
I informed his Lieutenant, you know, |
| 13 | and his offices and basically on each shift, |
| 14 | just be mindful, you know, of making rounds and |
| 15 | just not for him, just for everybody. |
| 16 | : And what's the Captain's
MS. |
| 17 | name? |
| 18 | MR. -: |
| 19 | . Okay.
MS. |
| 20 | Um-hum.
MR.
: |
| 21 | : Did you tell Captain
MS. |
| 22 | this before Epstein was moved back to |
| 23 | the SHU? |
| 24 | MR.
Yeah.
We had a meeting, and
: |
| 25 | I got together and I said, hey, this was going |
| LIMITED OFFICIAL USE | 70 |
| -------------------- | ------------------------------------------------ |
| 1 | to be the plan that
was going to be moved |
| 2 | He was going to have a cellmate,
in with him. |
| 3 | and that was the protocol we were going to |
| 4 | follow. |
| 5 | : Did
MS.
confirm that he |
| 6 | would tell his Lieutenants, or his -- |
| 7 | MR.
He confirmed.
I followed up
: |
| 8 | and asked him, did you put it out to the |
| 9 | Lieutenants and staff working, and he told me |
| 10 | yes. |
| 11 | : And was that before
MS. |
| 12 | Epstein, his confirmation, did that come before |
| 13 | Epstein was moved back to the SHU, or around |
| 14 | the first day he was in the SHU? |
| 15 | MR.
No before.
I had the
: |
| 16 | conversation with him, and then I followed up |
| 17 | afterwards and said, "Hey, did you disseminate |
| 18 | the information?" And he said, "Everything was |
| 19 | disseminated." |
| 20 | But it wasn't just a one-day thing.
It |
| 21 | was a constant, I told him, a constant follow |
| 22 | up, you know?
Make sure that, you know, these |
| 23 | protocols are being followed. |
| 24 | : How many times do you
MS. |
| 25 | recall telling Captain
that, between |
| 1 | when Epstein went back to the SHU -- |
| --- | ---------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | MR.
Um-hum.
: |
| 3 | : -- and then his suicide?
MS. |
| 4 | I don't recall the number of
MR.
: |
| 5 | times, but it was just a conversation |
| 6 | constantly reminding that let's be vigilant on |
| 7 | just not him, but everybody in the Special |
| 8 | Housing Unit. |
| 9 | : Could you estimate daily?
MS. |
| 10 | Once?
Twice? |
| 11 | MR.
I wouldn't say daily.
I
: |
| 12 | would say, I don't have an actual number. |
| 13 | don't want to say an actual number, but you |
| 14 | know, if I did encounter, or I made rounds in |
| 15 | the unit, I would, you know, tell staff up |
| 16 | there, you know, be vigilant with your |
| 17 | protocol. |
| 18 | So, I don't know the specific amount of |
| 19 | I make my rounds once a week at a
time. |
| 20 | minimum, but, you know, sometimes it's more. |
| 21 | Sometimes it's less. |
| 22 | : When it comes to the
MR. |
| 23 | ability, so you specifically go back to, what |
| 24 | you said earlier about |
| 25 | MR.
Right.
: |
1 MR. : Um-hum. 2 MR. : -- but you know, one I had 3 was a 26-year-old drug dealer I know he, and he 4 was still in there, and I was like although he 5 was separated, I just didn't -- 6 MR. : Um-hum. 7 MR. : -- feel that he could, you 8 know, he might, somebody could convince him to 9 do something. So, he didn't, I didn't feel 10 comfortable with him, and I forget the other 11 one. And I think the other one might've been 12 somebody that was going to be releasing soon. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, I took in the factors 15 age -- 16 MR. : Um-hum. 17 MR. : -- and second when he 18 checked himself in and feeling that he was 19 going to be long-term. 20 MR. : Okay. That, so you made 21 special care and consideration in picking 22 Epstein's roommate, cellmate? 23 MR. : Based on the -- 24 MR. : Yep. 25 MR. : -- options I had --
| 1 | : Yep.
MR. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------ |
| 2 | -- which wasn't too many.
MR.
I
: |
| 3 | mean, he had to have a cellmate, and the |
| 4 | options weren't good. |
| 5 | : Are staff in the Special
MR. |
| 6 | Housing Unit allowed to assign cellmates |
| 7 | arbitrarily or on their own without consulting |
| 8 | a Captain, Lieutenant, or yourself |
| 9 | (Indiscernible \*00:46:26). |
| 10 | MR.
Yeah, the offices on their
: |
| 11 | own can, you know, if they have to move |
| 12 | somebody around can move somebody around based |
| 13 | on they know who can be housed with who.
If |
| 14 | somebody's separation, they know who's |
| 15 | So, they can do
separated from an individual. |
| 16 | that. |
| 17 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 18 | I mean, they're capable of
MR.
: |
| 19 | doing that. |
| 20 | : Okay. As it relates, talK
MR. |
| 21 | a little bit.
about |
| 22 | MR.
Right.
: |
| 23 | : He's no longer in MCC;
MR. |
| 24 | correct? |
| 25 | MR.
Right.
: |
| | LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
75 |
| --- | --------------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | : When was he released from
MR. |
| 2 | the facility? |
| 3 | MR.
He was released, I believe,
: |
| 4 | on Friday. |
| 5 | : Okay.
MR.
Was he transferred |
| 6 | out?
Was he released from custody?
Under what |
| 7 | conditions, do you know? |
| 8 | MR.
From what I understand, it
: |
| 9 | So, I don't --
was with all belongings. |
| 10 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 11 | -- who took him.
MR.
You can't,
: |
| 12 | I mean, even if you look on Sentry, you don't |
| 13 | know where he was -- |
| 14 | : Um-hum.
MR. |
| 15 | -- but when we looked at him
MR.
: |
| 16 | originally, it still showed that he was going |
| 17 | to court. |
| 18 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 19 | So, that he was going to be
MR.
: |
| 20 | long-term.
Now it's just showing there's no |
| 21 | So, I don't know where
is.
DST. |
| 22 | : Okay.
But he's not in
MR. |
| 23 | MCC? |
| 24 | MR.
No, he's not in MCC.
: |
| 25 | : Okay.
MR. |
| | |
| 1 | MR.
Uh --
: |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | : Prior to, you had, you
MR. |
| 3 | were very active in making sure that Epstein |
| 4 | had an appropriate cellmate? |
| 5 | MR.
Right.
: |
| 6 | : What were you, leading up
MR. |
| 7 | to the last week Friday, what were you aware of |
| 8 | , any court proceedings or any issues or |
| 9 | concerns about him leaving the MCC? |
| 10 | MR.
I was off on Friday.
: |
| 11 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 12 | MR.
So, I didn't know anything
: |
| 13 | about his court proceedings -- |
| 14 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 15 | -- or whatever.
MR.
I just know
: |
| 16 | this from after the fact. |
| 17 | : Okay.
MR.
When it comes to |
| 18 | , the staff in the Special Housing Unit, |
| 19 | how do they get notified of court dates, of the |
| 20 | probability of someone being released from the |
| 21 | facility?
How does that process work? |
| 22 | They get a call from
MR.
: |
| 23 | receiving, it's called receiving and discharge. |
| 24 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 25 | MR.
Where the inmates are
: |
| LIMITED OFFICIAL USE | 77 |
| -------------------- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | processed in and processed out. So, they get |
| 2 | notification that hey, such and such is |
| 3 | leaving, and send him down. |
| 4 | : Okay.
Does the MCC
MR. |
| 5 | usually, or sometimes, what's the, how often or |
| 6 | frequently does the MCC get advanced notice of |
| 7 | an inmate leaving? |
| 8 | : It depends.
If the
MR. |
| 9 | inmate's designated -- |
| 10 | : Um-hum.
MR. |
| 11 | -- then we know in advance
MR.
: |
| 12 | But usually the Marshalls
he's designated. |
| 13 | will come and say, whoever is picking him up, |
| 14 | "Hey, we're taking such and such." We might |
| 15 | get a list ahead of time if somebody's going to |
| 16 | maybe one of the county facilities or some they |
| 17 | just come and say, "Hey, we need this guy." |
| 18 | : Okay.
Ultimately Friday,
MR. |
| 19 | the 9th,
is discharged. |
| 20 | : Um-hum.
MR. |
| 21 | : Leaving Epstein, actually
MR. |
| 22 | Was there
let's talk about without a cellmate. |
| 23 | a plan in place if that were to happen? |
| 24 | We'd review it and say,
MR.
: |
| 25 | okay, who can he be with? But he wouldn't have |
1 was like, okay. Where are they at? Is EMS 2 coming in? She said she didn't have that much 3 information because the Lieutenant was down 4 with Epstein performing life-saving measures. 5 So, that's when I came in.
6 MR. : When did you start asking 7 questions about ? On the phone or when 8 you arrived at the facility?
9 MR. : So, when I got there, I was 10 like, where is the cellmate.
11 MR. : Um-hum.
12 MR. : I asked the Lieutenant, like 13 where is his cellmate, and Lieutenant said, "I 14 asked the same question when I went down and, 15 you know, started." He asked the officer, 16 "Where's his cellmate?"
17 And, you know, just couldn't, you know, he 18 was disoriented and told me he had said that. 19 So, that's when we started, you know, started 20 the process of where's 21 MR. : Just for timeline 22 purposes, about what time did you arrive? 23 MR. : I got there about 7:30. 24 MR. : Okay. Who within the 25 Special Housing Unit would've had the ability
| 1 | or who within the Special Housing Unit would've |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | had the ability or the authority to back-fill |
| 3 | spot as Epstein's cellmate? |
| 4 | MR.
Well what would've happened,
: |
| 5 | which was instructed to them, was -- |
| 6 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 7 | MR.
-- they would've told the
: |
| 8 | I mean
Lieutenant or Captain, hey, |
| 9 | Epstein needs a cellmate.
And then we would've |
| 10 | started the process of getting him a cellmate. |
| 11 | Because when, and this was Epstein's routine. |
| 12 | He got up early in the morning at 8, and he |
| 13 | didn't come back to his cell until about 7:30 |
| 14 | at night from his attorney visits. |
| 15 | left in the morning.
So, he doesn't |
| 16 | come back to his cell until in the evening, |
| 17 | which on that particular day, he got back |
| 18 | about, from what I understand, around 6:45. |
| 19 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 20 | Yeah.
MR.
: |
| 21 | : You said that they were
MR. |
| 22 | instructed to notify that Epstein needed a |
| 23 | cellmate? |
| 24 | So, the Captain, as I told
MR.
: |
| 25 | you before -- |
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 MR. : Um-hum. 2 MR. : -- and if they say WAB, it's 3 with all belongings. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : So, they more than likely 6 just took his stuff -- 7 MR. : Um-hum. 8 MR. : -- and then whatever he had 9 in his cell, and if he had something in the 10 property room, they might've gone to get it. 11 Or if they didn't, then we would somewhere down 12 the line ship it to wherever his destination 13 is. 14 MR. : Is the staff that's 15 packing up ' belongings different than the 16 Correctional Officers? 17 MR. -: property would've 18 been stored up in our Special Housing Unit. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : And then it would've been 21 taken by our Special Housing Unit staff to our 22 receiving and discharge center. 23 MR. : Is that staff, when you 24 say "staff", is that a different responsibility 25 than being a Correctional Officer?
| 1 | was departed the institution. |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | : Okay.
MR.
And that would ce |
| 3 | in the system somewhere? |
| 4 | MR.
They would be
Uh, yeah.
: |
| 5 | receipts, but our receiving and discharge would |
| 6 | have that. |
| 7 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 8 | And it will also show in
MR.
: |
| 9 | Sentry, which we use to track on when he was |
| 10 | keyed out. |
| 11 | : Okay. So, just to recap.
MR. |
| 12 | MR.
Um-hum.
: |
| 13 | : The Officers that were
MR. |
| 14 | working in the Special Housing Unit would've |
| 15 | ' belongings leaving.
They were
observed |
| 16 | instructed via the Captain through your orders |
| 17 | that if Epstein was to have a cellmate at all |
| 18 | times. |
| 19 | MR.
At all times.
: |
| 20 | : And that if that wasn't,
MR. |
| 21 | you know, supposed to be briefed up to the |
| 22 | Captain and then ultimately to you.
Is that |
| 23 | correct? |
| 24 | MR.
Right.
The Lieutenant, if
: |
| 25 | the SHU Lieutenant was working, the SHU |
| 1 | Lieutenant happened to be off that day. |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | : Um-hum.
MR. |
| 3 | And then it goes up the
MR.
: |
| 4 | chain to notify somebody that he doesn't have a |
| 5 | cellmate. |
| 6 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 7 | : So, the SHU Lieutenant was
MS. |
| 8 | off that day, you said? |
| 9 | He was off that day of --
MR.
: |
| 10 | MS.
And which SHU was that?
: |
| 11 | It was the Lieutenant
MR.
Huh?
: |
| 12 | at the time was |
| 13 | MS. |
| 14 | Uh, Lieutenant
MR.
: |
| 15 | : So, who was the Acting
MS. |
| 16 | Supervisor? |
| 17 | We didn't, well the
MR.
: |
| 18 | Operations, if we don't have a SHU Lieutenant |
| 19 | on duty, the Operations Lieutenant is the |
| 20 | Lieutenant that would come up, make rounds, and |
| 21 | (Indiscernible \*00:57:40). |
| 22 | : Okay. And who was that on
MS. |
| 23 | Friday? |
| 24 | I have to
MR.
I don't recall.
: |
| 25 | look at the roster. |
1 staffing? Like what percentage are you, would 2 you say? 3 MR. : I believe we're in our low 4 80s, high 70s. I'd have to look at the 5 staffing or whatever. 6 MR. : But somewhere around 80%. 7 MR. : Right, but it doesn't only, 8 that's not the only issue. The only issue 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. : -- is like we, let's say 11 we're staffed to 80%, we've got about 30 people 12 that we can't use. Either they're on Workman's 13 Comp. They're on AWOL status. You name it, we 14 have it. But the problem is, it takes a while 15 to go through that process to remove an 16 employee. 17 So, we can't just hire when you have a 18 bunch of people like that on you. So, that's 19 where we're at. 20 MR. : Okay. So, how do you as a 21 Warden and as an institution compensate for 22 being 20% understaffed? 23 MR. : Well, I mean everyone has to 24 chip in. I mean, we're not like the state 25 where you have your Correctional workers and
1 you have the contractor workers. Everyone, 2 despite the fact that you might have a 3 different job title, you know how to perform 4 the functions of a Correctional Officer. You 5 have to qualify with weapons every year. You 6 take training on working the housing units, and 7 the majority of them weren't hired off the 8 street as into their positions. There might be 9 a few. But the majority were Correctional 10 Officers and then promoted into the different 11 positions. 12 So, we have annual refresher training 13 every year where we train and move on like 14 that. But that's just not, it's not their 15 primary discipline, being a Correctional 16 Officer. 17 MR. : You said all staff are 18 trained as Corrections Officers? 19 MR. : The terminology is you're 20 Correctional workers. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : So, you know how to perform 23 the functions of a Correctional Officer. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Carry firearms. You can do
1 escorted trips. You could work the housing 2 unit. The only ones who probably are exempt 3 from that are doctors and attorneys and 4 psychologists, the professionals. But everyone 5 else, 6 MR. : And where do the 7 Correctional workers receive this training? 8 MR. : Well initially you go to 9 Glencoe. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Everyone goes to Glencoe for 12 training. 13 MR. : Um-hum. 14 MR. : And then specialized 15 training, we have annual refresher training 16 every year where we re-qualify and go over 17 certain correctional topics. 18 MR. : Okay. Let me ask you 19 about some specific people. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : If you happen to know if 22 they, what their primary duties are. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. 25 MR. : He's a material handler
1 foreman. 2 MR. : What is a material 3 handler? 4 MR. : They work in the warehouse. 5 So, in the warehouse, it has several functions. 6 You either work in the commissary which the 7 inmates shop for food. He can work in the 8 laundry where you do that, or you work in the 9 warehouse where you're processing 10 MR. : Um—hum. 11 MR. : -- in stuff. What's the 12 other one? We also have an outside warehouse 13 where we take deliveries. So, that's our, and 14 it's under our trust fund department. 15 MR. : Okay. And the night of 16 August 9th, August 10th -- 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : -- do you happen to know 19 if Mr. Thompson was working as a Correctional 20 Officer in that primary responsibility? 21 MR. : He was one of the Officers 22 in the Special Housing Unit. 23 MR. : Okay. Do you know how 24 often he works as a Correction, his 25 responsibility as an Officer?
1 MR. : What they do is since he 2 works in that department, we might, if we need 3 him during the daytime, assign him over to the 4 department. But he does overtime. He was 5 working overtime then. So, we have a lot of 6 overtime. So, individuals in other departments 7 work the overtime. 8 MR. : Is that something they can 9 do voluntarily, or are they told to do that? 10 How does that work? 11 MR. : We have a volunteer list for 12 the individuals that don't work in the 13 department. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : If you're a Correctional 16 Officer, we have what's called a mandation 17 list. So, if we call around and I say, "Hey, 18 we need somebody to work this", and everyone 19 turns it down and says, "No, I don't want to 20 work it", then we go to the mandation list. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Which is you're next up to 23 be mandated to work a post. 24 MR. : Okay. Um -- 25 MS. : Was he mandated that
1 night? 2 MR. : I believe he wasn't. He 3 wouldn't be mandated because he works as a 4 material handler foreman. 5 MS. : Got it. 6 MR. : So, he signed up for it. 7 MS. : Okay. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So, just to clarify, the 10 Correctional Officers or only the Officers are 11 on the mandated list? 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : The rest of Correctional 14 workers have the opportunity to volunteer for 15 overtime? 16 MR. : Right. You volunteer for 17 overtime. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Or during the daytime, I can 20 say, "Look I need to fill these posts. I need 21 you to come from your department to work over 22 in Correctional services." 23 MR. : Okay. Toba Noel (phonetic 24 25 MR. : Uh, is a Correctional
| 1 | It's voluntary.
MR.
: |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | Okay.
MR.
: |
| 3 | And then it's, like you
MR.
: |
| 4 | said, the prison business is 24 hours. |
| 5 | Um-hum.
MR.
: |
| 6 | We don't have the luxury to
MR.
: |
| 7 | turn around and say we can't fill a post.
Now |
| 8 | I might have a post that might require, you |
| 9 | know, X amount of people, but I have to staff |
| 10 | it at a minimum where we're safe coming and |
| 11 | going. |
| 12 | Um-hum.
MR.
: |
| 13 | So, there's really no set
MR.
: |
| 14 | I mean, depending, you know, I've been
amount. |
| 15 | here, when I first got here where our staffing |
| 16 | was really bad where people were doing four a |
| 17 | week. |
| 18 | When you say --
MR.
: |
| 19 | You know?
MR.
: |
| 20 | -- "four a week", what is
MR.
: |
| 21 | |
| 22 | Four overtimes a week.
MR.
: |
| 23 | Now is, when you say, what
MR.
: |
| 24 | Is that like another 8-hour
is an overtime? |
| 25 | shift? |
| 1 | Another 8-hour shift.
MR.
: |
| --- | ---------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | MR.
Okay. So, you
: |
| 3 | MR.
So, it depends on, you know,
: |
| 4 | the number of people we have, those |
| 5 | volunteering.
So, right now we're in the |
| 6 | hiring process where we are getting, you know, |
| 7 | bodies to fill in these positions. |
| 8 | So, an overtime shift is
MR.
: |
| 9 | eight additional hours? |
| 10 | MR.
Eight additional hours.
: |
| 11 | Is there any --
MR.
Okay.
: |
| 12 | MS.
Go ahead.
: |
| 13 | -- is there any limit on
MR.
: |
| 14 | how many 16-hour days a week an employee can |
| 15 | work? |
| 16 | MR.
You just can't exceed the
: |
| 17 | amount of 16 hours in a day. |
| 18 | MR.
Could you explain that for
: |
| 19 | me? |
| 20 | MR.
Okay.
You work eight hours.
: |
| 21 | MR.
Right.
: |
| 22 | You can only work 16 hours
MR.
: |
| 23 | that day. |
| 24 | MR.
Okay.
: |
| 25 | MR.
You can't work 24 hours.
: |
| | |
| | LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
102 |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | You can't, you're not like a fireman where, you |
| 2 | know, you're on duty 24 hours in. |
| 3 | MR.
Okay.
: |
| 4 | MR.
SO, there's a limit on the
: |
| 5 | daily. |
| 6 | MR.
Okay.
: |
| 7 | That you can do.
MR.
: |
| 8 | But there's no limit on
MR.
: |
| 9 | how many days in a row you can work those 16 |
| 10 | hours? |
| 11 | MR.
If somebody wants to,
No.
: |
| 12 | they could. |
| 13 | Do you have any unofficial
MR.
: |
| 14 | or any guidance on that front? |
| 15 | MR.
No, not really, because I
: |
| 16 | mean you have some people that sign up for |
| 17 | overtime. |
| 18 | MR.
Got you.
: |
| 19 | MR.
You know?
They say
: |
| 20 | Um-hum.
MR.
: |
| 21 | MR.
-- hey, they might, I don't
: |
| 22 | know people's financial situations. |
| 23 | MR.
Right.
: |
| 24 | MR.
But they might say, hey, you
: |
| 25 | know, I need to get some extra money -- |
| | |
| 1 | : No.
MS. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | : Okay.
MR.
Talk a little bit |
| 3 | about the cameras in the facility. |
| 4 | Okay.
MR.
: |
| 5 | : What is your understanding
MR. |
| 6 | on the general reliability of them? |
| 7 | MR.
They're not good.
We were
: |
| 8 | just funded to get new cameras installed but, |
| 9 | you know, when you're installing the cameras, |
| 10 | The building is
there's a lot you have to do. |
| 11 | It's not like a new building,
built in 1975. |
| 12 | and we've got to go through cinderblock. |
| 13 | There's a lot of things that, you know, are in |
| 14 | that block.
Asbestos.
So, we have to do the |
| 15 | Um --
wiring.
SO, the system is outdated. |
| 16 | : When you say they're not,
MR. |
| 17 | Is it poor quality in
are they not reliable? |
| 18 | recording?
What's the |
| 19 | :
MR.
It's the recording, but what |
| 20 | do they call that, the DVRs? |
| 21 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 22 | The ones that hold the
MR.
: |
| 23 | recordings, they're breaking down.
So, |
| 24 | sometimes we have where they're not recording. |
| 25 | We have to get it fixed, you know, more along |
1 those lines. 2 MR. : How were you aware, how 3 are you as the Warden made aware of cameras not 4 working appropriately or any issues with the 5 recording devices? 6 MR. : The department head would 7 bring it up to me, or the Associate Warden 8 would tell me, you know, we were informed that 9 the cameras aren't working. 10 MR. : What is the normal 11 procedure when the cameras go down? 12 MR. : So, if the cameras go down, 13 then the contact has to look and determine 14 what's the problem with the cameras. 15 MR. : Okay. How long would you 16 say that the cameras have been unreliable? 17 MR. : What do you mean by 18 "unreliable?" 19 MR. : I'm sorry, how long would 20 you say the cameras have been not working? 21 MR. : They work, but periodically 22 they go down. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : That's what I meant by it, 25 but they do record. You can, you know, it's
-
1 problem. The cameras are not recording. 2 MS. : So, does SIS have a room 3 where they can see the cameras in the facility? 4 MR. : We have a, the camera room 5 is in our communications room behind that area. 6 MS. : Okay. So, if a camera, if 7 the camera in the SHU was not working -- 8 MR. : Um-hum. 9 MS. : -- someone in that camera 10 room would be able to see that there's no feed 11 from that particular camera? 12 MR. : It's not the feed, it's the 13 recording. You can have, you always have the 14 life feed that you can see what's going on. 15 it's the recording of it. 16 MS. : Um-hum. 17 MR. : And the recordings 18 typically, and don't quote me on it, are on a 19 two-week or less timeline. So, what it is is, 20 if it gets to that two-week period, the memory 21 gets full, then it starts re-recording over 22 again. So, that's how most camera systems 23 work. 24 MS. : But if for instance a 25 camera in the SHU was down --
1 MR. : Right. 2 MS. : -- someone in that camera 3 room would see that the camera was down. 4 MR. : Or the SIS would check and 5 say, determine hey the recordings are not down 6 or yeah, you're right, or even the screen. 7 MS. : Um-hum. 8 MR. : If we didn't have a visual 9 screen to say, hey, there's problems with the 10 camera. 11 MS. : And did that happen with 12 the SHU camera? Was anyone notified that it 13 wasn't working? 14 MR. : Well, and this is what I was 15 told after the fact, the SIS Lieutenant I 16 believe conveyed that to the Communication 17 Officer that there was a problem with the 18 cameras. 19 MS. : Is that Lieutenant 20 (phonetic sp.)? 21 MR. : Lieutenant 22 MS. : And it's a she? 23 MR. : Yes, she. 24 MS. : When did she know about 25 it?
1 opportunity. 2 MR. : How does the inmate get a 3 telephone account set up? 4 MR. : Typically he has to go out 5 of SHU into a housing unit and go through the 6 voice recognition process in order to get set 7 up for it. You can't do it in the Special 8 Housing Unit. 9 MR. : And we said earlier that 10 Mr. Epstein was never left, was always in 11 Special Housing Unit. 12 MR. : Was always in the Special 13 Housing Unit. 14 MR. : Did he have an opportunity 15 to get a telephone account set up? 16 MR. : The problem with Mr. Epstein 17 was he was in the attorney room all day. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : From beginning to end, and 20 that's something that you do during the daytime 21 because our communications people are there. 22 So, we did, and then again, he had to be in an 23 assigned unit to get that. It's just to have 24 it set up. 25 MR. : Okay. Was Mr. Epstein
| 1 | allowed phone calls? |
| --- | --------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | MR.
Was he what?
: |
| 3 | : Was Mr. Epstein allowed
MR. |
| 4 | phone calls? |
| 5 | MR.
Yeah.
His initial one, he
: |
| 6 | didn't get his initial one, so we had to give |
| 7 | him a call, his initial call when he came in. |
| 8 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 9 | MR.
Then while you're in the
: |
| 10 | Special Housing Unit, you're entitled to one |
| 11 | call every 30 days. |
| 12 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 13 | So, he was entitled to a 30-
MR.
: |
| 14 | day phone call. |
| 15 | : And are those normally
MR. |
| 16 | monitored, recorded?
How do those? |
| 17 | Typically in his case, that
MR.
: |
| 18 | he didn't have his monitor set up, the unit |
| 19 | manager stood there and listened to the call. |
| 20 | : Okay.
Um --
MR. |
| 21 | : And would that be the
MS. |
| 22 | Lieutenant? |
| 23 | : No.
It was the Unit
MR. |
| 24 | Manager. |
| 25 | : And who would that be?
MS. |
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 MR. : We didn't, because again, he 2 wasn't set up. 3 MR. : Okay. Are you aware of 4 how many phone calls Mr. Epstein's made while 5 in the Special Housing Unit? 6 MR. : I'm not sure. I'm not aware 7 how many made. But I don't, I know he made 8 that one -- 9 MR. : Um-hum. 10 MR. : -- that day and I'm aware of 11 the initial one, but I don't believe he made 12 that many, because I do believe I saw a 13 correspondence that his attorney made to our 14 attorney about him getting a phone call. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : That he hadn't gotten a 17 phone call. So, there's some correspondence on 18 that. 19 MR. : Okay. You got any else on 20 the -- 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. III: Let's go over real quick 24 (Indiscernible \*01:18:13). 25 MR. : We covered this a little
| 1 | : Lieutenant
MS. |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | MR.
when he
Uh, Lieutenant
: |
| 3 | came in and my first, you know, any time you |
| 4 | have a suicide attempt, you want to make sure |
| 5 | your staff are all right and how they're doing. |
| 6 | So, I went to, you know, to check on him to |
| 7 | kind of get a debrief on what was going on.
He |
| 8 | Um --
kind of debriefed me on the situation. |
| 9 | : What did Lieutenant
MR. |
| 10 | tell you? |
| 11 | So, I asked him, so I
MR.
: |
| 12 | basically told him what happened, and he said, |
| 13 | he talked to Officer Noel and she said we |
| 14 | didn't do the 3 o'clock count or the 5 o'clock |
| 15 | count. |
| 16 | And then he said he talked to Noel, |
| 17 | Officer Noel, and she said, no he talked to |
| 18 | Officer Thomas and that Officer Thomas said, "I |
| 19 | We messed up." Something about it's
messed up. |
| 20 | But he said he was just talking
not her fault. |
| 21 | way off the line. |
| 22 | Let me back-track a little.
I did make |
| 23 | one more call, because I couldn't get in |
| 24 | contact with Lieutenant
I called up to |
| 25 | the Special Housing Unit. |
| 1 | : Okay.
MR. |
| --- | -------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | MR.
And I believe Ms. Noel
: |
| 3 | picked up the phone, and I asked her, you know, |
| 4 | what was going.
And she told me what was going |
| 5 | on.
But she really couldn't talk.
So, then I |
| 6 | came, when I got to the institution, I saw her |
| 7 | and I said, "Hey, are you all right?
Is |
| 8 | everything fine." And she was like okay. |
| 9 | So, I had somebody from our crisis support |
| 10 | team that was there talk to her to make sure |
| 11 | that she was all right, and then I went to try |
| 12 | to find Thomas.
She said Thomas had left. |
| 13 | So, I said, okay, "Left where?
Where did |
| 14 | he go?" |
| 15 | They said, you know, "He went home.
He |
| 16 | was distraught." |
| 17 | So, then I get another call saying Thomas |
| 18 | was outside, and that he told me, "I'm not |
| 19 | answering any questions from you.
I want my |
| 20 | union", I said Thomas, "I'm not concerned about |
| 21 | I'm concerned about your well
what happened. |
| 22 | You've
being.
Make sure you're all right. |
| 23 | been through a traumatic experience", and he |
| 24 | just kept talking. |
| 25 | So, there was a staff member out there.
I |
1 said, try to find him if he's outside. So, 2 they went outside and they said, you know, he 3 was gone.
4 I didn't see Ms. Noel, but I told them to 5 get a memorandum from her on what happened. 6 They told me said she wasn't feeling well and 7 she had to talk to her Union rep.
8 So, and I said, "You know what, let them 9 go. We'll get back with them or somebody will 10 get back with them." And they left. And we 11 just started the process of collecting and 12 preserving.
13 MS. : Have Noel or Thomas been 14 in to work since then?
15 MR. : No. Noel, I sent some 16 support staff on Sunday to go talk to them. 17 Today, the mother of Thomas' child, she works 18 at the institution but they're not together, 19 said, "Hey, he was with her all weekend but she 20 can't get in contact with him." I sent her and 21 a Lieutenant to go over to his house to find 22 out if he's okay. He called me a little irate 23 saying, "You know, you're sending people to my 24 house. You know, I was sleeping." 25 I said, "I'm checking on your well-being",
| | LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
120 |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------ |
| 1 | And then I didn't know, and I asked
you know. |
| 2 | him, I said, "Did you call in for work today?" |
| 3 | And he said, "Yes, I did." And he said, |
| 4 | "He was sleeping and he was tired." |
| 5 | And I said, "Well I'm just checking on |
| 6 | your well-being and just seeing how you are", |
| 7 | and I left it at that. |
| 8 | : That was this morning?
MS. |
| 9 | MR.
That was this morning.
: |
| 10 | : So, he basically called in
MS. |
| 11 | sick today? |
| 12 | MR.
He called in sick today.
: |
| 13 | She's on days off Monday and Tuesday. |
| 14 | : Okay.
MS. |
| 15 | I'm going to assign both of
MR.
: |
| 16 | them with no inmate contact, so they're going |
| 17 | to be away from inmates and assigned on the |
| 18 | outside (Indiscernible \*01:23:09). |
| 19 | : And then Lieutenant
MS. |
| 20 | MR.
And then that's basically
: |
| 21 | what Lieutenant
told me, and I told him, |
| 22 | "Write a memorandum on what was said", and he |
| 23 | wrote the memorandum and he submitted it. |
| 24 | : Has he been in to work
MS. |
| 25 | since Saturday? |
| 1 | MR.
Yes, he did. Actually he
: |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | stayed there late on Saturday.
He basically |
| 3 | worked a double, and then he came back and |
| 4 | worked during the day on it.
So, he hasn't |
| 5 | taken any time off. |
| 6 | : Is he there now?
MS. |
| 7 | MR.
He's there
He's there.
: |
| 8 | today, so he's working here. |
| 9 | : And --
MS. |
| 10 | MR.
Oh, and I do have an
: |
| 11 | And I did ask him, you know, when he
addition. |
| 12 | got there what happened, and he says, he |
| 13 | doesn't know what the condition was because |
| 14 | when Thomas called for the emergency medical, |
| 15 | he opened the door and took him down himself |
| 16 | and started life-saving measures. |
| 17 | : So, Epstein was hanging
MS. |
| 18 | from the door? |
| 19 | MR.
We don't know what he was
: |
| 20 | doing because Thomas was the first one there, |
| 21 | and when responding staff came, he was already |
| 22 | there doing compressions and life-saving |
| 23 | So, I definitively can't say where,
measures. |
| 24 | was he hanging?
What position he was or not |
| 25 | because nobody knows when they responded, so. |
1 MR. : What is the policy 2 regarding if an Officer or staff member sees an 3 inmate in that situation?
4 MR. : Okay. And I won't want to 5 quote this is a policy thing, but you call for 6 assistance and you wait for assistance to come 7 because you don't know if that's a ploy. So, 8 if you go in there as one person, and you know, 9 when somebody's hanging, that's dead. That is 10 dead weight.
11 So, you go in there, you don't know if 12 it's a ploy. So, you go in there and get 13 overpowered, guess what? Now that individual 14 has the cell door keys for every key on that 15 range, and that could be a recipe for disaster.
16 So, it might sound inhumane that, you 17 know, we have to wait because the individual on 18 the grill can't come down range either because 19 if they get overpowered, guess what, we've lost 20 a whole unit. And that's the most secure unit 21 in the institution.
22 So, she has to stay outside with the keys 23 on the grill because there are two different 24 keys. They don't mix. And we wait for 25 responding staff to come in and perform, you
| 1 | Epstein? |
| --- | ---------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | MR.
Let's see, I had one, I saw
: |
| 3 | him by the attorney visit, small conversation. |
| 4 | Another one I saw him when I was making rounds |
| 5 | on the unit when he had first gotten into the |
| 6 | cell with
He was going into the shower. |
| 7 | I asked him, "How was everything going." He |
| 8 | I'm fine."
said, "I'm good. |
| 9 | And then
, I said, "How's he doing?" |
| 10 | was like, "I want to go back to a unit." |
| 11 | So, you know, was just that type of |
| 12 | conversation while making rounds. |
| 13 | MR.
Okay.
Thank you.
: |
| 14 | Okay.
MR.
: |
| 15 | MR.
And did you want just step
: |
| 16 | outside? |
| 17 | Huh?
MR.
: |
| 18 | Do you mind if we just take
MR. |
| 19 | step out? |
| 20 | No, I have no problem.
MR.
: |
| 21 | It is 12:23.
MR.
We're
: |
| 22 | pausing the interview. |
| 23 | We're resuming the interview at this time. |
| 24 | It is 12:29 in the afternoon. |
| 25 | Okay. So, the first
MS.
: |
1 question is, I just want to make sure we have 2 the name right. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : The Lieutenant or the 5 Captain that you told that Epstein should have 6 a cellmate? 7 MR. : Well, it was Captain 8 9 MS. , okay. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MS. : Okay. And I know you're 12 probably already doing this, but we just wanted 13 to make sure you're preserving all of the 14 emails that you referenced, any text messages 15 that you've sent about this, any communications 16 that you've had at all. 17 MR. : Well when I had gave the 18 direction, it was given verbally in a meeting. 19 MS. : Um-hum. 20 MR. : I didn't send emails out. 21 had a direct conversation. 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. : So, it was everyone in the 24 room. So -- 25 MS. : Okay. But for instance,
1 what happened, the times -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : -- and moving forward with 4 that. 5 MR. : Do you know who drafted 6 that? 7 MR. : The SIS Lieutenant does it. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : And then I review it because 10 it's ultimately sent from me. It's a report of 11 incident -- 12 MR. : Um-hum. 13 MR. : -- to our central office. 14 So, I look at it, the synopsis. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Just for terminology to make 17 sure it's accurate. And it's just a brief 18 statement saying that, you know, he made 19 rounds. 20 MR. : Um-hum. 21 MR. : He was unresponsive. Life-22 saving measures were initiated. Taken to the 23 outside hospital and then he was pronounced 24 deceased at that time. And then we just move 25 on from there.
| | LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
129 |
| --- | ------------------------------------------------- |
| 1 | : Just a couple of more --
MR. |
| 2 | MR.
Um-hum.
: |
| 3 | : -- housekeeping stuff just
MR. |
| 4 | to say, have you had any contact with the press |
| 5 | regarding this? |
| 6 | MR.
No, I have not.
: |
| 7 | : Has any press contacted
MR. |
| 8 | you directly? |
| 9 | MR.
No, they have not.
: |
| 10 | : Have you directed any
MR. |
| 11 | staff to destroy anything? |
| 12 | MR.
No, I have not.
: |
| 13 | : What directions have you
MR. |
| 14 | given the staff in terms of preserving things? |
| 15 | So, initially when we came,
MR.
: |
| 16 | when I got in, I told the Captain, get all the |
| 17 | log books up there, the rounds, anything |
| 18 | pertaining to get it and anything we can think |
| 19 | of that might be needed.
And it's given to the |
| 20 | It's in the SIS office with the SIS
SIS. |
| 21 | Lieutenant. |
| 22 | So, told them to preserve it, and whoever |
| 23 | needed it, I know the IG has come by.
They've |
| 24 | taken some stuff.
But basically preserve |
| 25 | everything that might be needed to be |
| | |
# LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 preserved. And then if any requests come, you 2 know, we'll go and get it and preserve it. 3 MR. : Are you -- 4 MS. : Can I just ask one quick 5 question about the log books? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Actually while she's 8 looking at it -- 9 MS. : Yeah. 10 MR. : do you mind? 11 MS. : This is -- 12 MR. : Are you aware of any 13 objects missing from his cell? Are you aware 14 of anything peculiar occurring since his 15 suicide? Since his body was discovered? 16 MR. : You mean missing from his 17 cell? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : I didn't observe the cell, 20 so I don't know what's in -- 21 MR. : Were you ever notified of 22 any, after his body was discovered, have you 23 been notified of any peculiarities or anything 24 that stuck out in your mind as odd? 25 MR. : As far as what would've been
| 1 | an incident report. |
| --- | ----------------------------------------------- |
| 2 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 3 | And the only incident report
MR.
: |
| 4 | he had was, I guess it was the cloth that was |
| 5 | found on the initial one, but then our |
| 6 | Disciplinary Hearing Officer concluded that we |
| 7 | couldn't' sustain any charges on him because it |
| 8 | was inconclusive -- |
| 9 | : Okay.
MR. |
| 10 | -- with it, but that's --
MR.
: |
| 11 | : Okay. And were you aware
MR. |
| 12 | of him having any enemies or anything, or being |
| 13 | a specific target by anybody? |
| 14 | MR.
Where?
: |
| 15 | : In the institution?
MR. |
| 16 | I mean no one's came to
MR.
No.
: |
| 17 | me specifically saying, you know, "He's my |
| 18 | enemy", or all that, so I don't, you know. |
| 19 | : Was he not to be, not to
MR. |
| 20 | be celled with anybody because of any problems |
| 21 | that he would have, or -- |
| 22 | MR.
I mean.
: |
| 23 | : Let me rephrase that a
MR. |
| 24 | Were you aware of any other inmates
little. |
| 25 | who had targeted him specifically? |
133
1 it. 2 MS. : Okay. Okay. 3 MR. : This is not complete for the 4 simple fact that, you know, with the emergency 5 coming, I had them take it and preserve it. 6 So, it was part of the preservation. So, 7 that's probably why it doesn't go all the way 8 up to 8 o'clock. 9 MS. : Got it. 10 MR. : Because as soon as I came 11 in, I told the Lieutenant grab the 30-minute 12 checks. 13 MS. : And is this a signature or 14 a circle for a signature? 15 MR. : That's a signature. 16 MS. : Okay. 17 MR. : Whoever was in, and I 18 believe, and I'm not sure, but if it was the 19 morning watch Lieutenant, it would be 20 Lieutenant 21 MS. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MS. : I think that's all the 24 questions that we have. 25 MR. : Great. That's it. The
| 1 | time is now 12:35.
Warden, we really |
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| 2 | appreciate your time. |
| 3 | MR.
Okay.
: |
| 4 | : And the interview is
MR. |
| 5 | completed, oh actually before we do that.
Is |
| 6 | there anything that you would like to tell us? |
| 7 | Any statements that you would like to make? |
| 8 | Anything you think we should know about the |
| 9 | incident in general?
Just wanted to give you |
| 10 | an opportunity if there's anything that you |
| 11 | think we should know that we haven't discussed. |
| 12 | I can't think of anything
MR.
: |
| 13 | But I mean, as it comes along, I'll pass
else. |
| 14 | Anything I get or any
it on to the IG. |
| 15 | information. |
| 16 | : Thank you.
MR. |
| 17 | MR.
Okay.
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| 1 | CERTIFICATE |
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| 2 | I hereby certify that the foregoing pages |
| 3 | represent an accurate transcript of the |
| 4 | electronic sound recording of the proceedings |
| 5 | before the Department of Justice, Office of the |
| 6 | Inspector General in the matter of: |
| 7 | |
| 8 | Interview of |
| 9 | |
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| 11 | |
| 12 | |
| 13 | , Transcriber |
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