LIMITED OFFICIAL USE DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL MAY 31, 2022 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Dr., Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063459 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063460 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063461 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063462 I did three years of training in LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063463 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063464 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063465 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063466 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063467 10 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063468 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063469 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063470 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063471 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063472 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063473 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 the plethora, and the petechiae aren’t quite distributed like his were. His were, like, just all the way from the neck up, he had petechiae. In strangulations, it’s usually just the eyes and mouth, not all of the skin. So, even though they can be seen in homicidal strangulations, they usually have a different pattern then I saw in Mr. Epstein. : Got it. Thank you. So, what made you come to the conclusion that Jeffrey Epstein’s death was a suicide? Can you walk us through that? I know you mentioned the plethora, the petechiae, and also the ligature itself. What else did you see that made you come to the conclusion as suicide? Sorry. So, the autopsy didn't show really any signs of a struggle. And every single strangulation case I’ve had, even people who were really impaired by intoxicants, they struggled. So, he didn't have any marks on his hands. He had one abrasion on his arm, which probably was from convulsing when being hanging. But nothing that suggested a struggle. No broken fingernails. No other bruising anywhere. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063474 17 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE He was pretty much pristine, other than the neck and face findings. He also internally didn't have strap muscle hemorrhages of the neck. That’s bleeding in the lung muscles, in the front of your neck. Nor did he have hemorrhaging in the muscles of the back of his neck. That you see when it’s been an incomplete compression, not a sustained compression like a hanging. So, when I don’t see those, I'm more likely to think hanging than manual strangulation, or even ligature strangulation. And then, lastly, he did have fractures of his thyroid cartilage and one side of his hyoid bone. These are structures inside your neck. Then the pattern of these fractures was consistent with a hanging. You see a very different pattern of fracturing if there has been a manual compression of the neck versus a sustained pressure of a hanging. And the pattern of his fractures was that of a hanging. So, even without an investigation, and although I wanted one, just because of the nature of the case, even without an investigation, this case, autopsy wise, looked LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063475 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063476 EFTA00063477 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063478 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 When you hang yourself, it hangs, and it actually will sometimes make like a peak at the back, right? And sometimes it isn’t fully circumferential. That’s really classic for hanging. So, Mr. Epstein had a peak, it was sort of to the right and behind the ear, and it was not fully circumferential. Totally consistent with a hanging. And if it was circumstantial, that means someone strangled him? It can, or it can mean that if he has - if you are really good, if what they showed me was his ligature, he didn't tie a good slip knot, i.e., he didn't tie a good hangman's knot. If you tie a good hangman's knot, it will sometimes be circumferential just because it tightens with your weight. If you don't, if you have a fixed knot, you slump into the ligature, and it doesn't -. It isn't circumferential. So, it depends on the ligature. I have a feeling he wasn't well versed in the tying of hangman's knots or good slip knots, and that's why his isn't circumferential. So, what type of knot did you LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063479 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 see on the noose? So, they showed me a noose with what looked like a fixed sort of granny knot. And I'm not convinced that's even a noose because they told me they thought this was the ligature, but there was a lot of confusion about what the ligature - which thing was actually the ligature. And there was a lot of stuff in that room. But the thing that they said, this is the ligature, it had a fixed knot. Not a slip knot. : Okay. I kind of jumped, but I'll come back to the noose part. That’s later on in the interview. You said there was no defensive wounds. So, if someone was to - if there was possibly an attack - me just putting it out there - if it was an attack, there would have been defensive wounds. Where else? Where would you have seen the defensive wounds? So, what I tend to see in victims of strangulation is they have lots of debris under their fingernails from fighting, and from trying to pull the strangling person off their own neck. So, you’ll see a bunch of linear abrasions usually on the neck itself, LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063480 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 and chin, and you'll see a lot of debris under the nails. He didn't have either of those things. Those are usually women. Being that he’s a man, I would have also expected more of sort of the pugilistic type of injuries, because I can't imagine somebody strangling a man easily without him trying to punch them out. So, I would think there would be some, you know, punch-type things, too, or sort of contusions on the knuckles and stuff. But he didn't have any of that. None of that stuff. Is it possible, I mean, in cases of suicide, like, once someone tries to hang themselves, do they just sit there? I mean, is it possible that they -? Normally with a person trying, you know, last second, change their mind, and try to dig in, and try to stop themselves from dying? Well, that really rarely happens. I’ve yet to see that happen. I’ve seen hangings where people simply tie a ligature and slump forward in a chair. It happens pretty quickly. You lose consciousness in, like, less than a minute. And then, at LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063481 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 that point, there’s really no intentional activity, and you start to seize pretty quickly. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063482 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 their opinion was that they were recent fractures. It was no superimposed trauma. So, I'm guessing you were familiar with the July 23rd incident where Mr. Epstein tried to take his life initially? Yes. I was. And there was a noose found around his neck. We were just trying to get an idea if it’s possible that he sustained injuries during that attempt, that could have also assisted, or made things, you know, the broken hyoid and the thyroid cartilage could have also been because of the fact of the initial attempt? Could it have been broken because of the damage already caused by the July 23rd incident? I think probably not, just based on how they appeared. They don't describe any - the anthropologist - doesn't describe any healing. So, there would have been, if there is a refracture from a prior fracture, there probably would have been some healing visible, and they didn't see that. Also, if he had sustained that kind of trauma the first time, he would have had LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063483 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 symptoms. He would have, you know, had difficulty talking and swallowing, and they probably would have noted that clinically. So, that might be a question you direct the people who took care of him after the first attempt. And just a follow up, doctor. You said that people lose consciousness within a minute. Is that pretty standard, you know, when they attempt to hang themselves? Is that, in your practice, a pretty standard time frame? So, where I'm getting that information from isn't so much my practice as there is a woman in Canada who researched this extensively, and actually had a collection of films of people hanging themselves. They were judicial hangings. They were in-custody hangings where there were actual cameras on prisoners who had managed to hang themselves. And there were people who actually filmed their own hangings. And on those films, there is a really consistent pattern of they hang, in about a minute or less, they become limp, and then they start to seize violently. And it’s almost a LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063484 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063485 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 the lip, inside, and I think that these are from resuscitative efforts. They’re pretty commonly seen when there is a mixture of different types of resuscitation, particularly if they’ve used a mask, or if it’s somebody who is - if there was any bystander resuscitation, as well. So, these, to me, appeared resuscitative. Also, there is no, like, real bruising under these. If I had thought these were from some kind of impact to his face, there would be bruising, and if you look at the rest of the autopsy, I have the inside of his mouth photographed really well, and all you see are the petechiae. There is no big bruising. So, these aren’t impacts. These are consistent with him probably being already dead when they were trying to resuscitate him. : Okay. And this is, this picture is labeled, "Photos, I.D., Visual 001". This is the picture that was taken by your office. Right? : Yes. It’s taken by the mortuary technicians for the purpose of showing it to a family so they can identify the LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063486 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063487 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 : Yeah. So, it’s a little tough. So, just to give an explanation. Where the picture, the person’s point of view, whoever is standing there, that’s where the door is, the cell door is. Now, if you look in, there is a little window on the door. So, when we got a chance to interview the correctional officer who found Mr. Epstein, he was basically doing feeding, just to give you an understanding, he was coming there early morning, he was doing the feeding time, and he knocked on the cell, and you see the mattress on the floor? LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063488 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 like, to (Indiscernible *00:26:53) - I mean, the mattress sticking out. Mr. Epstein was to the right itself. So, he couldn't see anything to the right. He called out to Mr. Epstein. He didn't answer. So, he walked in. And when he walked in, he couldn't explain it for us, a mess like this, he explained there was a lot of linens, a lot of different stuff, but the mattress was there. And when he found Mr. Epstein - and I'm going to show you another picture - Mr. Epstein was to the right, the part that we can't see in the initial picture. Yup. And he was hanging from the corner over here. So, you see then, he mentioned that’s part of the noose. And he was hanging low with his bottom, with his buttocks off the ground. So, his feet was out, and his buttocks was off the ground. So -- Okay. : -- that's how he found him. So, basically, he didn't use a cutter. He actually pulled. So, I think he used all his might, he panicked, so the C.O. kind of pulled the noose, and the noose broke, and Mr. Epstein LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063489 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063490 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 I believe -. So, I think that it was given to the investigators by the EMS crew who took over the -. Yeah, that's the picture of how it came to us. It was in the bag. And this is what they brought me. So, this is labeled, "Path evidence 006." And the picture prior to this was, "INV scene 009." So, this is what they provided to you. And you said this didn't seem-. This was like a -. You didn't think this was the piece that cost - that was the noose around his neck? Well, I'm asking because in the photo you showed me a piece of stuff hanging, and you tell me that the correction officer pulled and ripped. This thing that they gave me isn't ripped at all like it would be ripped off of something. It's ripped to create the strip, but it's not ripped off. So LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063491 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063492 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE And if you compare it to the other picture that we saw, if he pulled, if this was around Mr. Epstein’s neck, to me, it seems like there should have been more -. Like, it should have been tight, tightened up a lot more. Like, he should have been more wrinkled up because it was wrapped around his neck. Right? As a noose. But it doesn't seem like there was much. It looks like -. Can you explain the difference? By looking at it, what do you think? Well, what it looks like to me is that it's too tidy. And if you tell me that somebody tore him off of the corner-. Like, when you look at that thing that they showed me, it was never clear to me how that suspended him from anything. All right? I could see him putting the looped part around his neck, but I can't see how this suspended him from anything. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063493 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 There is no knot hanging anywhere or anything like this. And then, that other thing you showed me that’s by the desk apparatus, that is torn, it makes more sense to me because that’s got the tearing that the correction officer remembers. Either one of these, in terms of its shape, could have caused the markings on Mr. Epstein, but this one, this second one that you’re showing me that was never brought to me, looks like a more likely candidate. : Okay. Do you recall -? Do you know if the initial noose that was brought to you, was there any DNA testing, or any kind of testing done on that noose? : It means that I bag it up again, and submit it as evidence, and then whoever is investigating, the cops, you guys, whoever it is, they decide whether or not to do LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063494 EFTA00063495 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063496 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE All right. So, a witness, basically an inmate, told the guard man that he saw the C.O. who entered Epstein’s cell fall to the ground with Epstein when he attempted to move him, or when he pulled him, whatever, he couldn't describe -. He didn't give us an exact explanation. But he said that he actually saw the C.O. and Epstein fall to the ground. In your examination, did you see any bruising or anything consistent with any falls that Mr. Epstein might have taken? : Okay. And if he didn't, if he landed on the floor, would there have been bruising being the fact that he was already - if he was already dead at this point. Would there have been bruising on his body? There might not have been bruising, but what I might have seen might have LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063497 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063498 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063499 EFTA00063500 : Okay. And they mentioned, they told the OIG that, when they spoke with you, that you needed information from the correctional officer who found Jeffrey Epstein, before you could make the determination on cause of death, and instead of waiting on that information, you actually moved forward and made a determination anyway as suicide. So, what I did was, we attempted to get the information from the correctional officer, and I also, I wanted to go and see the cell. They wouldn't allow that. I wanted to see some film footage. I was allowed to do that. So, there were a couple of different things I wanted to do before I could ascertain whether or not -. You know, and mostly, in LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063501 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063502 EFTA00063503 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063504 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063505 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063506 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 : Absolutely. That’s one thing that we definitely do as medical examiners. It’s a very important part of my job, is conveying the findings to families. The only times that I do not do that is when it’s a homicide, for sure, and there is an ongoing investigation, or a case that’s suspicious for homicide, then I don’t talk to family members because sometimes they’re the perpetrators. But when it’s as clear cut as this, I always talk to the families. As much as they need to talk to me. : That’s all that I have, too. Is there anything else? Any information you think that might help us in our investigation, or you think wasn’t shared in the report, that might be useful to us? You want to share with us? LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063507 EFTA00063508 : Okay. And I'm just going to scroll down slowly, for both of you guys, just to make sure, and especially . Let me know if you see that there is any records or documents missing, that stands out, that you can only see. MS. : Let me just say, it’s going to be very hard to determine that. I mean, all I can tell you, I mean, it’s sort of more a presumption of regularity. If we issued a certified copy of the medical examiner case file, that means it’s been really carefully vetted and that it has been certified to be a true and exact copy of that file. I am not going to be able to give you any information, on this call, that would be any different from that. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063509 it. It came to you from our Records Department, but I specifically remember approving the release by the Records Department, and it is clear that, you know, that we okayed it, and that it came from the Office of Chief Medical Examiner. And as you know, there is that little red sort of self-protective note that I okayed the release by whoever put the note there. So, it seems to me that this looks exactly like what we would have issued to you. There is no way for me to verify that, looking at it, and I couldn't even do that on, you know, a giant plasma screen, either. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063510 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063511 p.m. on May 31^{st}, 2022. I am ending the recording. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063512 55 ## LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ## CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063513