SWORN STATEMENT DIGITALLY RECORDED OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 1, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00061431 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061432 EFTA00061433 | 1 | | :--- | | 2 | | 3 | | 4 | | 5 | | 6 | | 7 | | 8 | | 9 | | 10 | | 11 | | 12 | | 13 | | 14 | | 15 | | 16 | | 17 | | 18 | | 19 | | 20 | | 21 | | 22 | | 23 | | 24 | | 25 | 4 : Thank you. This is an official DOJ OIG investigation into the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding circumstances and you’re being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG? Thank you. So we have the Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. Sorry. You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceeding or agency disciplinary EFTA00061434 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 EFTA00061435 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061436 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 your answers were a little unclear and we are here today in hope that we can clear up some of those answers. Is it correct that you worked on August 10th, morning watch shift, at the MCC starting on August 9, 2019 at 10:00 p.m. through August 10, 2019 when you were relieved by oncoming lieutenant at approximately 5:30 a.m.? Here’s the Friday, August 9th and Saturday August 10th are the daily assignment rosters. And this is - the dates that we’re talking about is the day before Epstein was discovered and the day Epstein was discovered. So the Friday and Saturday. According to the roster, I worked the morning watch shift on Friday August 9th and Saturday August 10th. And at that time, is it correct that the morning watch shift actually started the night two hours prior to what the schedule says. You would actually have started at 10:00 p.m. instead of midnight. Those were the times that we relieved each other. Yes. Okay. So in this case, so it’s specifically talking about your August EFTA00061437 EFTA00061438 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061439 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 EFTA00061440 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 EFTA00061441 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061442 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 EFTA00061443 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 I'm talking specifically about the SHU right now. After the feeding was done, you and were done. Do you remember if you did any other tasks or anything while you were in the SHU? : I don’t remember if - . I don’t remember. I don’t remember doing anything else because we fed and then you go the grace point where you’re waiting to see -waiting for the inmates to finish so you can get the things from them. But no. No. Nothing in particular comes to mind from like that. : You mentioned you would have finished up whatever you were - that you didn’t get a chance to complete. What was it that you’re talking about? You said that after the feeding, you would have finished up whatever else that you couldn’t get a chance to complete. You would have finished up-. EFTA00061444 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 have finished that up if that was still due. I don't even know if I even -. I don't -. I don't know if I came and got my stuff and left or if I finished doing the paperwork. I don't know in what order I did that. EFTA00061445 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 effect. I don’t -. Because I can’t remember if I had a 583 packet that I was working on. Okay. And then what time are these emails with the daily activity report and lieutenant’s log. What time are they typically sent out in the mornings? Whenever we finish them. I mean we try and have them done before the end of our shift. But at that particular time because we didn’t have any bodies. And everything took longer. There were times when - sometimes you had things that you didn’t expect. Or rounds or something like that took longer. Hiring overtime or something like that took longer. That everything didn’t get done. And plus, you know, when you’re making rounds-. We were so short and officers were doing so many - officers were being mandated every day during that time. And they have been being mandated every day - five days a week - for months by then. That the officers, you know, they were so tired and exhausted that you spent an additional amount of time talking to them and making sure that EFTA00061446 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 they were okay. So everything just ran on. Okay. So the part - the reason why we’re asking is we have - we looked at all the other lieutenant logs that were this is stapled - sorry. So here, we looked, you know leading up to it. So here’s the one you sent from Tuesday, August 6th. It was sent out at 5:16 a.m. And you sent one out of Wednesday, August 7th at 5:03 a.m. You weren’t - we didn’t’ find Thursday’s but then you sent one out on Friday, August 9th at 5:11 a.m. So this one is Saturday. This one was at 9:26 a.m. And then Sunday’s was sent out at 6:15 a.m. And then Monday’s August 12th, again at 6:30 a.m. So just does this help you recall what could have possibly been happening? I know you said you went up at 7:00 a.m. to help with the feeding. So do you know what you would have been doing up until that 7:00 a.m. hour? Being that all these were sent out, you know, anywhere from as early as 5:00 a.m. to as late as, you know, 6:30, 6:30 something a.m. I’m sure I was still working. Or 6:36 a.m. EFTA00061447 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 EFTA00061448 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 around that time though, what would you typically be working on aside from the daily activity report and lieutenant’s log? It would be - I would be filling overtime. I would be -. There were a number of things that I could have been doing. I could have been talking to staff or somebody on the phone about something that was going on. It could have been anything. It could have been anything. Okay. This is the daily activities report and lieutenant’s log from August 10th and August 11th. So these are the ones that we just discussed that were in those emails. If you can flip to the actual lieutenant’s log. Would you during your shift be reviewing the lieutenant’s log and be constantly filling it out as well as the, you know, what happened prior to your shift? I don’t -. I wouldn’t necessarily -. I have to look at what occurred prior to my shift unless -. Usually -. When I did that, in order to fill this out the daily activity report. In order to do this, sometimes I would reference the EFTA00061449 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 EFTA00061450 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 EFTA00061451 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061452 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 EFTA00061453 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061454 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 EFTA00061455 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 EFTA00061456 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 EFTA00061457 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 EFTA00061458 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 EFTA00061459 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 EFTA00061460 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 : It depends on what was already in the log. I don’t -. I don’t know. I don’t. I mean -. It would have depended on what was in log. I don’t even know if I went back to the log to see what was reflected in the log. Because as long as I made the change on my shift, I don’t know -. I mean I don’t mess with people’s logs. So as long as I make the change on my shift and made sure that it reflected correctly on my shift, I can’t see going beck looking at what somebody else wrote on their sheet. : Okay. So the reason why we think maybe you did - and we’re just asking if it was you who may have did it - because if you notice, when you came on the end of your EFTA00061461 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 EFTA00061462 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 EFTA00061463 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 you’re the one who figured out that he was being counted in the SHU up until this point. He was - according to this roster, this lieutenant log, at 3:15, he was moved. Well he was never moved on any of the count slips or any of the E1s or any of that. He was always being counted in the SHU. Although, the lieutenant’s log is showing that he wasn’t. So the lieutenant logs are saying one thing but the E1 and the count slips are saying something different. So we’re trying to figure out who went back and changed these numbers? Who went back and made these additions. The only logical explanation would be since you’re the one who actually coded him from the SHU to R&D, the thought is, oh you must have. You must EFTA00061464 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 EFTA00061465 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 EFTA00061466 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 EFTA00061467 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 EFTA00061468 EFTA00061469 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061470 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 theory that we have is that - and I don’t know that there’s anything wrong with this. We just need to put the pieces together. you is that at 12:00, when I was taking the 12:00 count, that was the count that I always took for the most part, because I was busy doing overtime trying to fill overtime and stuff like that when I first got in. So the first count that I would have taken was the 12:00 count. That’s when it came to my attention. That’s when I happened - after I figured out what was going on - that’s when we did the change in the computer so that it would reflect the accurate count. I would never have someone turn in a count slip with seven plus something on there. That’s not even how the count slip - that I’m accustomed to doing - is done. : Okay, so do you mean for this 10:00 p.m. count, you know nothing about this 9S plus one or this 73 plus one? EFTA00061471 EFTA00061472 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 EFTA00061473 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 EFTA00061474 EFTA00061475 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 EFTA00061476 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 EFTA00061477 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 EFTA00061478 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 EFTA00061479 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 EFTA00061480 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 EFTA00061481 52 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061482 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061483 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061484 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 EFTA00061485 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 EFTA00061486 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 That if my roster say 73 at the beginning of my shift, which it does, what reason would I have to go back and change the previous day’s roster way from the very tippy top of their roster all the way down to the bottom and change it to something else that doesn’t reflect what my roster say -. EFTA00061487 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 : Okay. So you started at approximately 10:00 p.m. At 10:00 p.m., like we covered, it shows 72. At 12:00 a.m. - and then again at 12:00 a.m. on the - it says 72 and then it says 73. This all happened during your shift. How do you know that it happened during my shift? That’s -. What I’m saying is you saying that the beginning of your shift it says 73. No, it didn’t. At the beginning of your shift it said 72. At 12:00, when I discovered that that inmate was in SHU, the count at that time was 73. There were times at the beginning of my shift I don’t even start my roster at the beginning of my shift - the lieutenant’s log. The lieutenant’s log is something that I do towards the end of my shift - especially on morning watch because there’s EFTA00061488 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 not a whole lot going on but the count. So there’s not going to be a lot of - a whole lot of entries going on during that time. So simply because you seen an entry at a particular time don’t mean that I’m sitting there looking at the clock at every hour doing an entry into my log. No. The thought is - the thought is that like you said you were working from approximately 5:30 a.m. until 7:00 a.m. on your paperwork and then again it sounds like from probably about 8:00 a.m. until you sent out the email at 9:26 a.m. on your paperwork. And we talked about this is the paperwork that you would have been working on. So for approximately three plus hours you may have been working on this. type of work do I normally do during the course of my shift. And what paperwork would I have been working on if I was late. And I told you more than likely the daily log, the finishing up my lieutenant’s log or something to that effect. I could have been doing the roster. I could have been doing a bunch of things. I EFTA00061489 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 don't recall everything that I did verbatim during the course of that night. There was a lot of things going on at that time. And that’s why we covered ahead of time that all of these emails that you sent out previously, they were all sent out way before the 6:30 timeframe with the daily activities log and the lieutenant’s log. So you told us previously that you were relieved at approximately 5:30 a.m. that day. And we have confirmed that. And at 7:00 a.m. you went up to help with feeding. And then at approximately 8:00 a.m., you went back to do other things. And then at approximately 9:30 a.m., you sent this out. So aside from the feeding, if you weren't working on this, what else would you have been working on? EFTA00061490 EFTA00061491 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 remember. So on this August 9, 2019, on the lieutenant’s log it shows that at 8:38 a.m. went from to pre-remove. And then here’s the daily log which says again pre-removed and it shows 8/9/2019 at 0838. What does pre-remove mean? That is something - that’s an R&D thing. You’ll have to ask R&D what that means. If the count change, that meant that he was removed from this institution. All right. So you’re saying that if you see something listed as pre-remove on the lieutenant’s log - it literally says it on the lieutenant’s log, so I would think a lieutenant would know what that means. And the count did change. But do you know what pre-remove means being that it’s on the lieutenant’s log? the lieutenant’s log and because it says pre-remove, doesn’t mean that we know the exact meaning of pre-remove. That is an R&D term that they use when they are changing the inmate’s status. EFTA00061492 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061493 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 So with getting with R&D, we have these emails from the U.S. Marshals Service on August 8, 2019. One at 10:33 a.m. and the next one at 3:36 p.m. And they all talk about a prisoner production. All the lieutenants were sent the second one that was sent at 3:36 p.m. The initial email that was sent at 10:33 p.m. specifically says, “the following prisoners are to be transferred.” The second name down says [ ] , [ ] . And the one that you had received for lieutenants is a prisoner schedule report. It says, “[ ] , [ ] , transfer within. It says Judge MCC to GEO. Do you know what GEO is, G-E-O? I know GEO is a EFTA00061494 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 EFTA00061495 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 EFTA00061496 EFTA00061497 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 EFTA00061498 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 EFTA00061499 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 Those - if an inmate is definitively supposed to have a cellie, psychology would let us know or someone would let us know. Who’s aware of that information. never - like standard procedure. Inmates go - inmates that come off of suicide watch are often - most especially here - put in a cell by themselves. I mean that’s not something - the psychologists would - psychology services. They would be the ones who determine whether or not - based upon their interactions with that inmate or what they diagnose as his - what you know and dealing with that inmate and his mental needs, whether or not that particular inmate is supposed to have a cellie or not. That is not something that’s understood or something that we should know automatically. That’s not true. That is not true. So two things to that. One, psychology did send out an email saying that he was required to have a cellmate. And you did - you were a recipient of that email. EFTA00061500 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 EFTA00061501 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 EFTA00061502 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061503 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 EFTA00061504 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 EFTA00061505 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 EFTA00061506 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 something that - something of that importance. If you feel as though his life depended on it, I don’t know why you would be taking him off suicide watch anyway. If he had to be guarded around the clock by an inmate, then he should have - he should have been - he should have stayed on watch. Because apparently, that says to me that you’re not secure in the fact that you don’t feel that he’s not capable of committing suicide. So why would you take him off of watch if he needs 24-hour watch? And if that was the case, then why didn’t they put him on Ten South where he would have had cameras on him all day and all night, 24 hours a day. A staff member watching him 24 hours, 7 days a week. I mean you had El Chapo here. El Chapo didn’t commit suicide. They had extra lieutenants on him 24 hours. They had all kinds of extra staff on him 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So -. Sure. And you had EFTA00061507 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 EFTA00061508 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 EFTA00061509 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 EFTA00061510 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 EFTA00061511 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 EFTA00061512 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 EFTA00061513 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 EFTA00061514 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 EFTA00061515 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061516 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 EFTA00061517 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 EFTA00061518 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 All right. So to your recollection, those were always on the desk and MCC is just different than all the other BOP institutions? : I mean you putting it -. That’s just the way that they did things here. I mean you making it sound like, you know, out of all places I have been this place does things differently. It does. And it does in a lot of ways which is why we’re in the predicament that we’re in. Because there are a lot of things that are done here. And if you don’t work here, I guess it’s hard for you to believe. But there are a lot of people here who can attest to that, most especially people who have been at other institutions and have come here. There are a lot of things that they do here that they don’t do at other places. list of inmates that have like special circumstances and stuff like that. I haven’t seen a hotlist in a while though. EFTA00061519 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061520 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 that he's leaving. : Yeah, I know. He was WAB. He left in the morning of August 9, 2010 - sorry, August 9th, 2019 as WAB. And then he was listed as pre-remove on all the documentation. So they removed him from the institution. What should have happened? If he was required to have a cellmate? If the SHU OIC brings him down to R&D as a WAB. So he’s got all of his belongings. What should have happened if it is known that Epstein’s cellmate, , and everybody knows that Epstein - and I’m not talking about you - everybody that brings him down knows that Epstein is required to have a cellmate. What should have happened at the time that the OIC of the SHU brought - Epstein cellmate - down to R&D as a WAB? First, they should have ensured that he was actually leaving and never coming back. If they were aware of that information. And they should have put forth that action to notify someone that his cellmate was leaving. If they knew that he was supposed to have a cellie and they knew for a fact that | EFTA00061521 | | :--- | :--- LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 EFTA00061522 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 EFTA00061523 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 EFTA00061524 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 EFTA00061525 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 EFTA00061526 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 effect. But I also wanted to go check and make sure myself so I could see what was actually going on. So I would know what was - what the situation and the circumstances were. think after the - I think I went - after the count, I think I called. I don’t know. When I made - because I know after the count I went up to R&D and physical saw the guy up there, talked to the officer, saw that he was on - I think he was on dry cell or something to that effect. And but I think before that we made phone calls to make sure that the inmate - because I want to say one of the - somebody in SHU knew. I mean somebody in control was aware that the inmate was in R&D as well. So once we verified that the inmate was in R&D, he was in dry cell, then we can move forward and make the change because if he was on dry cell in R&D, then that’s where he was. That was the decision that somebody had made and because I don’t even think there was any room. There was any room anywhere for him to go. I don’t think EFTA00061527 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 there was any room in SHU for him to be on dry cell. And there wasn't any room on two. I can't remember. EFTA00061528 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 EFTA00061529 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061530 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 | EFTA00061531 | | :--- | :--- LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 EFTA00061532 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 asking me stuff that occurred on day watch, stuff that occurred on evening watch. The 10:00 count is the responsibility of whatever occurred on that shift. If it pertains to the 10:00 count, that would have been referenced with the person who was there who was there at EFTA00061533 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 EFTA00061534 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 EFTA00061535 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061536 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 EFTA00061537 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 EFTA00061538 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061539 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 EFTA00061540 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061541 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 EFTA00061542 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 EFTA00061543 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 EFTA00061544 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 EFTA00061545 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 EFTA00061546 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 agree with the fact that Epstein should have been on SHU. Personally. Epstein should not have been on SHU. He should have been in um - he should have been on Ten South. If he required that type of supervision. Inmates - BOP policy states that inmates are not even responsible for other inmates. So for you to even put a requirement on his to say that he had to have another inmate - and expect that inmate to supervise another inmate is irresponsible to begin with. You have - I’ve seen a lot of inmates during my time in the Bureau who have had cellies that have fallen out and been unconscious. And they waited until you actively made rounds to let you know, hey you may want to check on this inmate. So that’s why the BOP has that policy that inmates are not responsible for other inmates. I don’t even like the inmates that they put on suicide watch to watch other inmates. Because I’ve seen them sit there and agitate the inmates that are on watch. So that’s ineffective to expect another inmate is irresponsible to expect another inmate to care that much about another inmate. EFTA00061547 EFTA00061548 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 EFTA00061549 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 there’s anyone that would have been responsible for that. Because there’s no - there’s - it may not have been a mistake. It could have been an oversight or something like that. You know during this time, we were so short and everybody was so busy. We had so many things going on. We had the inmates in the institution was - were going crazy at that time because they were unhappy. A lot of their especially in the SHU - a lot of the services that stuff that they were supposed to have weren’t being given to them. You know so there was a lot going on in the institution at that time. And you had very few people working. So you was doing numerous - you had one or two people doing the jobs of what would normally be four or five people. So there was just a lot going on at that time. : So you think that the mistake would have been - if it was a mistake rather than intentional, someone intentionally doing it-. : I mean I can’t answer that. Because I don’t know what Epstein’s assigned cell was in relations to -- EFTA00061550 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE | EFTA00061551 | | :--- | :--- LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 : I don’t know who. I don’t know if there’s anybody up in SHU that reviews on a daily basis or whatever timeframe where each inmate is located especially at that time. I mean there was so much going on. A lot of that is why we’re here. Because we didn’t have the resources in grave numbers that we needed to do a whole lot of things. We didn’t even have the adequate amount of staff to do uses of forces. Do you know how grave that is to safety and security? We had a ton of contraband in the building at the time. We had so many things that we were dealing with and so many - such a lack of staff. To do those things with that we were just doing the best that we could with what we had. Because nobody was giving us anything else. Nobody was giving us anything else to work with. And then on top of that, you had officers that were being mandated. You can check around at any other institution in the Bureau. You will never see that. But officers are being mandated five days a week. And there were days when they was fed an additional two, two and a half hours on their shift in addition to doing EFTA00061552 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 EFTA00061553 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061554 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 EFTA00061555 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 EFTA00061556 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 EFTA00061557 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 EFTA00061558 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 EFTA00061559 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 When the count slip was submitted, there wasn’t an error. Because that’s what – that’s what the number of inmates that they had as far as they knew that was pertaining to the SHU count. They weren’t sure as to whether or not - I said what should be placed on the count because that was - because there was an inmate in R&D. That’s how all of this came about. So it wasn’t necessarily an error, it was how the count slip had been completed because they didn’t know at the time what the situation was with the inmate in R&D. So that’s why they called - they notified me to see if - to see what I wanted them to do about it. So we made - once we verified that the inmate was in R&D, we made the change in Sentry and on the E1 which effectively changed the E1, and a new count slip should have been routed. : I asked - well they knew to do a new count slip. And yes, you know, do a new count slip, and send a new slip down. EFTA00061560 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 | EFTA00061561 | | :--- | :--- | This is a simple Markdown document with no headings or paragraphs. It contains a single line of text. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 they were saying that the count slip had - that they - the count that they had on their unit - of course, we - I - we went thought everything that they were supposed to do. Go head. You know do a fresh count, make sure that what you have on your unit is what you have. And do a count - resubmit the count slip. Because I think the guys that was there previously had counted. The officers that was there previously, I think they may have counted prior to them getting there. Right. So the question to that is do you know if they were calling in their 73 here and one in R&D? Is that what they were trying to say? Do you know? Because their count slip said 73 and it still to this day is attached as 73. And their books show that there was 73. And the people that were in the previous - all the previous counts - the - you know, leading up to this - the 10:00 p.m. and then - what is the one before that, the 4:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.? 4:00 p.m. 4:00 p.m. So the 4:00 EFTA00061562 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 p. m. count are all wrong. They’re all off one. So do you know if when they were calling it in did they say, yep we have 73. So that’s why they entered up 73. They gave you the 73. And also we have one in R&D. thought that there were 73. So they were always off one to include what and sent in when it said 73. So it’s either, the 10:00 p.m. count slip was wrong and their 4:00 p.m. count slips were wrong. So they’re all wrong in the SHU. So the question is do you know if during your conversation if they said we have 70 - we verified - we have 73 here and there’s one in R&D. Because this account slip - No, I don’t remember. - -- at 10:00 p.m. does say 73 plus one. - I don’t remember if EFTA00061563 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 they -. I don’t remember if they said. I don’t remember if that was the conversation. If they had -. I don’t remember the plus one. : So you just remember they said they have a count and there’s one in R&D? : I remember them -. I remember them when they -. I think I was calling in the count. Because I don’t know what other reason. Unless he was calling me to tell me. He was either calling in the count well it was at the time of the count. So when he called me, he was like there’s a - there’s seven - whatever number. They had issues - 73 or whatever it was. I don’t remember the number. And - but there’s a guy in - there’s a guy in R&D from here. And I think they wanted to know what did they want me to do about the count - about the inmate in R&D as far as the count slip went. You know. Because already knows that I don’t play around with -. knew me because we had worked together long enough for him to know that there was just certain things that he needed to consult with me about because he knew that I was - if it was supposed to be a certain way EFTA00061564 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 EFTA00061565 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061566 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 them give me an explanation as to what happened that led up to that because that would have been part of me determining, you know, one finding out what was going on. And determining in the end what I needed to do about it. You know. that? Because R&D isn’t a place where we house inmates. So that was out of the ordinary. So it’s like why do we have an inmate in R&D? And especially one that’s bedded down for the night. So that - that just - that just raised a lot of questions for me that I needed to get answers to prior to make a determination as to whether or not this inmate needed to go back up to the SHU. Or if there was no reason other than to let him stay on R&D. EFTA00061567 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 I know I visited R&D. And I think we called to make sure - to verify - that the inmate - that there was actually an inmate there. And I want to say that somebody in control that was saying yeah, there is an inmate in R&D. So I can’t remember offhand how, but I’m sure we made a phone call to verify that there was an inmate in R&D. And that the circumstances of why he was there. And at some point, I went and visited R&D. : Okay. And again, just to give you the backstory of what we have, all of the people - the 10:00 p.m. count and the 4:00 p.m. -? : 4:00 p.m. count. They’ve already told us we didn’t do the count. We didn’t count them. We know at 12:00 a.m. they didn’t do the count. They did not count them. No counts were conducted. So this just - I want you to know that for the back of your head, especially since they were counting in their count that they thought that they were doing that was accurate. Are you sure you had a conversation with someone in the EFTA00061568 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 started at midnight and they didn’t seem to know. So the people that were doing the counts and they were doing it wrong, they were all like, “Well we didn’t’ know that. We didn’t know our count was wrong. We weren’t intentionally ghost counting.” So started at midnight. The fact that he would be calling you with that information just seems very unlikely since no one before him knew about that. Because he started at midnight. And the people that were in the SHU weren’t aware of the mistake, which caused all their counts to be wrong and now we know that they all counted wrong and they’ve all admitted it. Yep, we didn’t’ count. So I just want to make - because this is the one EFTA00061569 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 part of our story that doesn’t really add up is the fact that you’re saying he told you there was somebody in dry cell when nobody else seemed to know. And he just started that shift. EFTA00061570 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00061571 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 EFTA00061572 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 EFTA00061573 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 EFTA00061574 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 that they - that there was an inmate in R&D and was going - wanting to know how I wanted them to fill out the count slip. : Okay. And that’s your recollection. Great. Thank you for your time. It is - this is Senior Special Agent with the U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General. It is 2:41 p.m. and I am turning off the recorder. EFTA00061575 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 ## CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: EFTA00061576