1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
3 -----x
4 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

v.

20 CR 330 (AJN)

5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL,

6 -----x
7 Defendant.

Jury Trial

8 New York, N.Y.
9 December 1, 2021
10 8:55 a.m.

11 Before:

12 HON. ALISON J. NATHAN,

13 District Judge

14 APPEARANCES

15 DAMIAN WILLIAMS

16 United States Attorney for the
17 Southern District of New York

18 BY:



19 Assistant United States Attorneys

20 HADDON MORGAN AND FOREMAN
21 Attorneys for Defendant

22 BY: JEFFREY S. PAGLIUCA
23 CHRISTIAN R. EVERDELL
24 LAURA A. MENNINGER

25 -and-

26 BOBBI C. STERNHEIM
27 -and-

28 RENATO STABILE

29 Also Present:



30 , FBI
31 NYPD

32 Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office
33 Ann Lundberg,
34 Paralegal, Haddon Morgan and Foreman

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8 So let's begin.

9 10 Ms. Menninger, did you want to begin with the Rule 16 issue?

11 12 MS. MENNINGER: I think Mr. Everdell was going to handle that piece.

13 THE COURT: Okay.

14 Ms. are you taking this?

15 MR. : I'm taking this one, your Honor.

16 THE COURT: You all swapped off.

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 So I think the defense is clearly right that if we are talking by impeachment by contradiction, that is to say, impeachment, direct contradiction of something testified to on the stand, it's not required to be disclosed as case-in-chief material under likely not 608 impeachment to for dishonesty Rule 16; and depending on what it is, it's because show - and the it's impeachment by contradiction, not extrinsic evidence to show a character like.

25 So the question is whether it's impeachment or not.

(Trial resumed; jury not present)

THE COURT: All right. Matters to take up, counsel, includes the Rule 16/608, as I see it, issue. And then I want to see where you are in terms of working out anticipated personal identifying information of witnesses who I've given permission to testify under pseudonyms to protect their privacy.

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And I still don't fully understand the photograph of the street that the witness read the line from saying, That's the address where we lived, how that's impeachment. That remains an open question in my mind.

But otherwise, Mr. , do you disagree with anything I've just said as to the state of the law?

MR. : No, I think that that's a correct statement of the law, your Honor.

The issue with the photograph is it wasn't established that that satisfied any of the theories of impeachment; and so if the defense is offering it for some other purpose, that purpose would be part of the defense's case-in-chief and, therefore, subject to Rule 16 or an attack on the witness's character for truthfulness, which would be barred by 608.


But the, I'll charitably call it, theory offered yesterday that anything that's not part of the case-in-chief somehow then falls under 608 as extrinsic, you've walked away from that.

MR. : Yes -- the theory really is that it has to satisfy some proper basis of impeachment for extrinsic evidence. So it's true that there are more than two paths, yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. So just to get to the photograph, as I see it, the witness's testimony -- and tell

4 5 6 7 The witness testified, I believe, that at the time that she met Epstein and Ms. Maxwell, that she was living with her family in a pool house and she described that as homeless; correct?

8 9 10 MR. EVERDELL: And she said that she lived in one place, I believe, continuously for her childhood. The testimony, what you just said, is accurate.

11 12 13 THE COURT: Right. So then you've got the FBI 302 in which she said that she lived at a certain address at the time that she met them; correct?

14 MR. EVERDELL: That's right.

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 THE COURT: I think there's a question of whether that statement comes in as a prior inconsistent statement. I don't know that that was moved. But she said, in any event, she looked at it and it was a typo; so she addressed the apparent discrepancy, as I heard it. I'm not sure if you wanted to move the statement in as a prior inconsistent statement and let the jury resolve that dispute.

22 23 24 25 But we moved on then to a current photograph of a street that had writing on it, an address and a date, and she said that's the street I lived in -- that's the street I lived on, which it just -- I think it suffered from a lot of

me -- I don't know if this is Mr. Everdell or Ms. Menninger.

MR. EVERDELL: It's me, your Honor.


4 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I'm sorry. I just -- see if we could back up.

5 6 Have we moved beyond the Rule 16 issue at this point and we're just talking about --

7 8 9 10 THE COURT: Well, if it's impeaching, then there's not a Rule 16 issue. As I sit here, I don't know -- I don't see that it's impeaching; so that if it's not impeaching, I'm not sure what you're doing with it and it may be a Rule 16 issue.

11 12 13 14 15 16 MR. EVERDELL: If I can address that, your Honor, because I think we disagree with what the state of the law is. I think there's some disagreement on the courts about whether or not if the defense is going to introduce something or talk about something on cross-examination, whether that is considered a Rule 16 document.

17 18 19 20 So what I understand the case law to be, your Honor, is that they are trying to deal with the issue of where the defense is trying to introduce affirmative proof in its own case through the government's own witnesses.

21 22 23 24 THE COURT: For sure. Which is, let's face it, usually what happens. There's often not a defense case. Both cross-examination and impeachment testimony, as well as affirmative evidence, comes in through cross-examination.

25 So I think the cases that say there's not a clear

problems, but certainly wasn't directly impeaching of her testimony.

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temporal time split, that is to say, you don't have to put on your first witness, is not the question; it's a functional question, are you putting on evidence in your case-in-chief as opposed to impeachment testimony.

MR. EVERDELL: I think that's right, your Honor.

Let's give an example, because I think it's helpful to use examples. I'll use one from this very case.

It's my understanding that the government wants to introduce certain FedEx records through a FedEx document custodian. The defense also would like to introduce other FedEx records, coincidentally, through the same document custodian. So if that happens, you'd have a witness called by the government, the defense would want to introduce affirmative proof in its case through that same witness. That would be defense case-in-chief material which, by the way, we disclosed in our Rule 16 letter to the government. That's an example, I think, where the courts are talking about where you disclose things -- where you have a witness where you are trying to put on affirmative proof in the defense case through the government's witness. That is an example where we don't dispute.

I'll give another example. This is a hypothetical one. Larry Visoski just testified. He was shown a number of pictures of Little St. James Island where there were structures, houses on the island. And he testified to those,

4 5 6 7 If we hypothetically had photos of that same island before those houses were built, we don't, but if we did and we wanted to introduce those through Larry Visoski, again, that would be affirmative defense in the defense case-in-chief introduced through the government's witness. That would be Rule 16 which we'd have to disclose ahead of time.

8 THE COURT: Right.

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 MR. EVERDELL: Now, what we are talking about here is what Witness 1, what Jane, remembers about the childhood, about these events; it's about her recollection of everything, and that is critical to the case. So misremembering details, misremembering where she lived, not being able to recognize a house, that all goes to her credibility as a witness, her believability, any contradiction.

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 This is central to the case. Her memory of every single detail of her childhood is central to the case, and that is not case-in-chief material. That is, if she testifies to something and we think we have something that contradicts what she just said, like a photograph of her -- of a place where she lived as a child, but she didn't seem to remember, that's impeachment material. And we don't know if we're going to use that until she says on the stand what she says on the stand. We have it ready to go in case she says that, and she did in this case, and so that's why we were able to use it or try to

and those were introduced.

4 5 THE COURT: Up to the point where you said it contradicted what she said on the stand, you and I were in vigorous agreement.

6 MR. EVERDELL: Okay.

7 THE COURT: Okay.

8 MR. EVERDELL: All right.

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Well, what I would say is that we can't -- no, this is not -- it's not as if we were going to introduce the photograph of her house in our case-in-chief. We are doing this -- we had it ready to be able to use it in case she said something that we believe was contradictory and contradicted by the photograph. So that's why we did not disclose it ahead of time, because we believed it to be impeachment material.

16 17 18 19 By the way, Judge, I'll just note for the record that when we sent our Rule 16 discovery several weeks ago to the government, we included a cover letter, which I'm happy to share with the Court --

20 21 THE COURT: I can imagine it reserved all your rights. And you can keep talking, but we remain in agreement.

22 23 24 MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And it cited all the cases that we cited, and it said we do not consider impeachment material or refreshing material case-in-chief material.

25 THE COURT: It is true. I think, Mr. agrees.

use it, to show that she doesn't have an accurate recollection. That is pure impeachment material.

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The only question in any specific instance is is it impeaching, and is it a prior inconsistent statement. We have to deal with the rules around a prior inconsistent statement. It wasn't like you had deposition testimony. You had an FBI agent's write-up of notes which the witness was confronted with and said it was a mistake. Again, that wasn't moved in, but we can deal with that as it comes.

There could be -- not here, but there could be 608 issues if you're trying to use extrinsic evidence. If what we have is impeaching by contradiction, impeachment of what the witness testified to on the stand, then it's not going to be a 608 issue.

MR. EVERDELL: If we're impeaching the witness, yes, that's right. And I just want to address the issue of impeaching with extrinsic evidence, which I know the government has raised. That rule is -- and the cases they cite --

THE COURT: I know you cited Rule 613. I hadn't understood their argument to be about 613.

MR. EVERDELL: They raised in their papers the notion that you can't impeach -- or you can't use extrinsic evidence to impeach. But the rule there and the cases they've cited stand for the unremarkable proposition that you can't impeach -- or you can't use extrinsic evidence on a collateral matter.

THE COURT: Correct.

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MR. EVERDELL: Her memory about anything to do with this time period is not a collateral matter; she is a central witness to this case.

THE COURT: Well, again, I don't adopt that broad statement. But to the extent you are attempting to impeach so you have something that contradicts what she testified to on the stand, then it's not a Rule 16 issue, I doubt it's a 613 - a 608 issue. We may have to deal with 613 questions and what it is that we're looking at.

MR. EVERDELL: Again, it's also not a 608 issue, I'd say, your Honor, because that rule deals with conduct.

THE COURT: I said it's not a 608 issue.

MR. EVERDELL: Yes. Okay. I agree with you.

MR. : I'm a little confused, your Honor.

I think we're agreeing that, as your Honor said, if it's offered for impeachment with a proper basis for impeachment and it's not about a collateral matter, then they didn't have to disclose it in Rule 16. If it's to advance the defense case, whether in the government's case or in the defense case, then it should have been disclosed in Rule 16.

There are things that the defense might expect to offer for impeachment, but that might be impeachment about a collateral matter or might be impeachment, but is not, in fact, based on a contradiction or some other proper theory of impeachment, in which case it is not an admissible exhibit.

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The government also doesn't agree with the defense's broad statement that anything that goes to this witness's memory is a noncollateral matter. It's hard for us to know now exactly what they plan to do. The government thinks we should take that as it comes. But I think there's sort of broad agreement about the general principles here, your Honor.

MR. EVERDELL: If there's broad agreement, your Honor, then there shouldn't be objections. If we have an issue with the witness's memory that we believe we have a document or some other information that contradicts what she's saying, then we are allowed to cross on it.

THE COURT: Okay. We'll take it as it comes, but we agree on the principles. I think the only question is -- I sustained the objection to admission of the photograph, because it's not clear to me that it's impeaching. As I said, if it's not impeaching, then it might be a Rule 16 issue; I wasn't entirely sure what you were trying to do with it.

You're welcome to -- if there's some basis to show a photograph, to impeach something she suggested in her testimony, then you can do that.

MR. EVERDELL: Yes.


MR. EVERDELL: Understood.

MR. : The government agrees, your Honor. The issue with that particular photograph, setting aside the fact

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that the witness couldn't recognize it, and there are other questions about admissibility than just whether it's relevant or impeaching, is that it wasn't a direct contradiction of anything the witness said on the stand; so it wasn't a proper basis for impeachment. And if it advanced the defense case in some other way, it would have been a Rule 16 --

THE COURT: What is the government's understanding of when the witness lived at the address that's referenced in the 302?

MR. : If I . III, who's taking the rest to answer that question.

THE COURT: Sure.


I don't recall the particular date, but I think the witness was beginning to clarify on cross-examination yesterday that at some point while she was a teenager living in Palm Beach, she moved to the second address. I don't recall the specific date --

THE COURT: And you say the second address, what do you mean?

MS. III : Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: I guess what do you mean by the first address, do you mean the pool house?

MS. III: Yes, your Honor. I believe the witness would explain that at the time that all of this --

4 THE COURT: Even though we're three days in, I still can't hear you without the mic.

5 MS. III: I'm sorry.

6 THE COURT: That's okay.

7 8 9 10 11 MS. III: I believe the witness would explain that when all of this began when she was 14, she was living in a pool house because of her family's financial circumstances. But at some point during the years that followed, her family moved to a second house.

12 13 THE COURT: And that's the address listed in the 302, as you understand it?

14 15 16 17 MS. III: I don't recall offhand whether that's the particular address. I'd want to review the 3500. But I believe the witness was clarifying that she lived at a second house.

18 THE COURT: Okay. All right.

19 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I'm sorry.

20 21 22 23 24 I believe -- and I'm checking this right now, but I believe the address she put on her 1994 Interlochen application was the address we were showing her the photograph of. And she's saying she's in a pool house or homeless. So I think this is impeaching. I think this goes directly --

25 THE COURT: Again, she said she lived -- they move in

THE COURT: Could you pull up the microphone.

MS. III: Yes, your Honor. I apologize.

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the application. All she said about the photograph was, That's the address that I lived in. And so we just don't have a - she looked at your photograph, she looked at the address written on it; she said that's the address where I lived. That's not yet in contradiction to her statement, because there's a timeline issue. But you can try, again, to see if there's a basis for impeachment.

MR. EVERDELL: All right. I'll leave it to Ms. Menninger, who's going to be doing the cross.


Any questions about that, Ms. Menninger?

MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. I think I can ask her questions today that explain when she lived where

THE COURT: Great.

MS. MENNINGER: -- what was on her applications. What she said in her 302, which was already discussed on the record, is that she lived in the same place from the time she met Epstein until she moved to New York. That was her statement. She continued on --

THE COURT: You mean that's the statement recorded in the 302.

MS. MENNINGER: That is one of the statements recorded in the 302 verbatim.

THE COURT: Right. Sorry, verbatim. She said it was a typo. It's a type-up of agents' notes, is it not?

4 5 6 7 The next sentence -- then I'll explain what I think we may get to. The next sentence, she says, That home was a three-bedroom home in a gated community called Bear Lake, something like that. Those were the two statements that were typed up in the agent's 302.

8 THE COURT: Okay.

9 MS. MENNINGER: And in the handwritten notes.

10 11 12 13 14 She's had a chance to explain it; in her mind, it's a typo. We have those agents on call to be witnesses, and they can talk about whether it was a typo or not a typo. I mean, I think that's the state of play in terms of contradicting a witness with a prior inconsistent statement.

15 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else on that?

16 MR. : Nothing from the government.

17 MR. EVERDELL: No, your Honor. Thank you.

18 19 THE COURT: Do we have issues to take up around specific identifying information?

20 MS. III: Yes, your Honor.

21 22 23 24 25 Just to provide the Court with an update on the status of our conferral with defense counsel, defense counsel provided the government with a list of certain topics this morning, which we appreciated; and we had a productive conversation this morning about a number of those topics, and I think I've

MS. MENNINGER: It's a type-up of the agent's notes. We also have the agent's handwritten notes.

narrowed the scope of any disagreement.

There are two remaining topics. And I think we've agreed that before those topics are raised at a break or before 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 the jury comes out, we're going to confer counsel just to confirm what issues might those two particular issues. I'm hopeful with the witness's be identifying as to that we'll be able to resolve any disagreement there, but we want to just work that out before that comes out before the jury. And I think there are one or two issues that we've agreed that won't be raised without a sidebar in advance to discuss them.

11 12 THE COURT: Okay. Is there no way to do that now while we're waiting for our jurors or --

13 14 MS. III: Your Honor, I think defense counsel's preference was to do that at a sidebar.

15 THE COURT: It's here.

16 MS. III: Yes, your Honor.

17 18 19 20 THE COURT: I just meant I'm happy to do it at the sidebar, to the extent we're referencing the specific identifying information. I just meant as a time saver can we do it now.

21 22 23 MS. MENNINGER: I think there are two of the three that we can do now; but the third one depends on what the witness says, your Honor.

24 THE COURT: Okay.

25 Let me just get a check on our juror numbers.

4 5 Just to be clear, I think two of those topics were ones that we wanted to just confer with the witness's attorney about, because there may not be any disagreement; we just wanted to confer with him to ensure we have that right.

6 7 8 I think there was one remaining topic that defense counsel preferred to raise as it arises during the course of cross-examination. That's what I meant by at sidebar.

9 Apologies.

10 11 THE COURT: Okay. So is there anything we can discuss now at the sidebar or no?

12 13 14 15 MS. MENNINGER: There's two of the three we can discuss at sidebar. I'm happy -- if the witness's counsel wants to join us at the sidebar and weigh in on what counsel thinks is identifying or not as we discuss it.

16 17 THE COURT: My preference would be for you to confer first and then let me know.

18 19 MS. III: Yes, your Honor, that's what we would propose.

20 THE COURT: Okay.

21 MS. Thank you.

22 THE COURT: All right.

23 Anything else we can take up now?

24 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor.

25 I conferred with the government. We have prepared,


similar to the government and similar to what Mr. Everdell did 4 5 6 7 yesterday, 18 binders that have potentially admissible sealed exhibits in them we would like to place under the jurors' chairs, consistent with the practice on prior witnesses, to only have them directed to a particular tab when and if the Court admits a particular document that has identifying information contained in it, if that's okay with your Honor.

8 THE COURT: Ms. III, is that fine with you?

9 10 MS. III: Your Honor, may I have just one moment? (Counsel conferred)

11 MS. III: No, your Honor. Thank you.

12 13 THE COURT: Fine. Okay. So you can place the binders. Anything else we can take up now, Ms. Menninger?

14 15 16 MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. I'm just going to approach the witness stand at some point and re-place the binder on the witness stand.

17 THE COURT: You may do that.

18 Ms. III, anything we can take up now?

19 MS. M: No, your Honor.

20 THE COURT: All right. I will step down.

21 22 23 I appreciate counsel conferring on the anonymity issues and working through as much as you could. I greatly appreciate that. I will see you in a few minutes.

24 (Recess)

25 THE COURT: All right. We have our jury.

Anything to take up?

4 5 6 7 8 9 I just wanted to report to the Court, we had a chance to confer about those two issues. We've narrowed the scope of disagreement to just one issue after conferring with the witness's counsel, which we'd like to raise at sidebar. I don't know how soon that will come up, so I defer to defense counsel whether to do that now or whether it would be more efficient to bring the jury out and deal with that at a break.

10 11 There's a second issue to flag, but let me just pause there on that to see.

12 THE COURT: Sure.

13 Is it anytime soon, Ms. Menninger?

14 15 MS. MENNINGER: I don't think so, but I don't have it all memorized.

16 17 THE COURT: Understand. Let's hope we get to the break and then we'll take it.

18 What else?

19 MS. III: Yes, your Honor.

20 21 22 23 24 25 Defense counsel provided the government with a number of exhibits, and we appreciated the chance to review those in order to raise issues in advance. We just wanted to flag that for two of those we anticipate there being a Rule 408 objection. Again, I don't know how quickly that will arise, so I just wanted to alert that to the Court. We can take that up

MS. Yes, your Honor.

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as it arises, but wanted to bring that to the Court's attention.

In addition, defense counsel has notified the government that they've provided binders of defense materials for the jurors. It appears that -- we have not had a chance to review those materials, but based on a sampling that defense counsel has provided to the government, it appears a large number of them are things like printouts from the internet and otherwise. So we have concerns about jurors flipping through a binder that would appear to contain a wide array of materials that would not be admissible. And because we haven't examined that binder, we have concerns about that.

I don't want to delay bringing the jury out, and so I would just ask for an opportunity to be heard about that before the jurors bring out any binders and begin flipping through them.

MS. MENNINGER: I'm going to be asking them to look at the binders at the outset at the beginning exhibits. I think we've all come to believe --

THE COURT: We're going to keep doing what we've been doing, which is before the jury turns to it, the defense will tell us what it is. If you have an objection before they turn to it, you'll raise it and we'll deal with it.

MS. M: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.

THE COURT: Is there any general set of objections in

4 5 6 I think materials like printouts from the internet, things like tabloid articles, Wikipedia pages, we don't think are appropriate as exhibits before the jury, and so we would object to exhibits of that nature.

7 8 In addition, the samples that we've been provided include --

9 10 11 THE COURT: Doesn't it depend what it's being used - you have an internet objection, is that the -- what's the grounds for a blanket objection to internet material?

12 MS. M: Yes, your Honor.

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 I agree that we'll have to take these as they come. Thinking ahead, we can't conceive of a basis for offering things like Wikipedia articles with this witness or tabloid articles with this witness, but we recognize the Court will have to address that as it comes because we're not quite sure what the defense argument would be. We mostly just wanted to give the Court a preview of those issues that we anticipate arising.


22 23 24 25 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I feel like I'm trying to give them stuff in advance so they can be prepared and we can move this proceeding more quickly, but it will only come up when and if it comes up.

that regard that we can --


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THE COURT: All right. Then we'll take it -- I'm going to try to minimize sidebars, so we have to keep moving.

My request always is if there are things that you think are likely to require a discussion to address admissibility, that you do raise them in advance. Confer. If you disagree, raise them.

I think at this point we'll bring out the jury. I'll ask you to keep trying to do that as we go, so we use our time efficiently. But it makes no sense to have the jury sitting idly now.


THE COURT: We'll bring in the jury.

Can we bring in the witness.

(Witness present)

(Jury present)

THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Nice to see you. Thank you so much for your punctuality and attention and diligence. I greatly appreciate it. I hope you had a good evening.

We will continue with Ms. Menninger's cross-examination of the witness who's testifying under the pseudonym "Jane."

I remind Jane that you are under oath.

I do remind the sketch artists that pursuant to my order, please don't sketch exact likeness of the witness who is

testifying under a pseudonym.

4 JANE,

5 called as a witness by the Government,

6 having been previously duly sworn, testified as follows:

7 CROSS-EXAMINATION (continued)

8 BY MS. MENNINGER:

9 Q. Good morning, Jane.

10 A. Good morning.

11 12 13 Q. I'd like to pick up again with your Interlochen applications, all right? You don't need to open the binder until we let you know. Thank you.

14 15 You are aware that Interlochen awards financial aid; correct?


17 18 Q. You are aware that Interlochen awards scholarships; correct?


20 Q. You went there for three years in the summers?


22 Q. Ages 13 to 17 16?

23 A. 16, yes.

24 Q. No, 17; I think you turned 17 in your final summer.

25 THE COURT: Is that a question?

With that,

II. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.


THE COURT: Did you turn 17 in your final summer?

THE WITNESS: Sorry, I'm doing the math. 14, 15 -- 4 no, 16.

5 Q. Your brothers went there as well?


7 8 9 MS. MENNINGER: If we could turn to J-3, which has already been admitted. And there is a little green flag for you to get to the J exhibits more quickly.

10 11 12 And your Honor, because J-3 has been admitted, I would ask at this time that the jurors be permitted to access the smaller binder under their chairs which has J-3 in it.

13 THE COURT: Just one moment.

14 Without objection?

15 MS. III: No objection, your Honor.

16 17 THE COURT: Okay. Jurors, you may pick up the smaller binder please and turn to J-3. Thank you.

18 BY MS. MENNINGER:

19 Q. Have you found J-3?


21 22 Q. I think as we discussed yesterday, that's your name on this application; correct?

23 A. Yes,

24 25 Q. And at the top line above your name, the question was asked: Are you applying for scholarship/financial aid;


5 6 7 Q. I want to ask you to turn to the second page of that exhibit. And on the second page, you described what kind of classes you wanted to apply for; correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 10 Q. You wrote that: When asked about something difficult, nothing has been difficult for me; correct?

11 A. I guess I did.

12 13 Q. You were involved in the school of the arts as we discussed, right?


15 Q. Costuming, acting, improvisation, right?


17 Q. Plays, performances, movies, right?


19 Q. This was at the age of 13, right?


21 22 23 Q. And then just below that, it has the names of some individuals who offered letters of recommendation for you, right?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. When you were 13; correct?

Q. And you checked off no; correct?

4 5 Q. And then the next page in this exhibit are some photographs of yourself, right --


7 Q. -- that you submitted?


9 Q. These were all taken before you had turned 14, right?


11 Q. All of them on the page?


13 14 15 Q. All right. If we could turn to page -- well, actually, yes, the next page, 4. That also has your address at the time; correct?


17 18 Q. And one more page, page 6. That is one of the letters of recommendation for you; correct?

19 20 THE COURT: Ms. Menninger, could I have a binder? I don't think I have it. That's the government exhibits.

21 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor --

22 THE COURT: If you don't, that's okay.

23 24 25 MS. MENNINGER: No, no. I believe for this one we gave you one yesterday, but I could be wrong about that. If I could just check with Ms. Lundberg.


Q. And then your signature is on that page, right?


THE COURT: I thought you did, too. I have just the government exhibits.

MS. MENNINGER: Can she put it on the screen, your Honor?

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THE COURT: That would be fine. That is, I think, what we were doing in part yesterday.

MS. MENNINGER: My apologies.

J-3, and we're on page 6.

THE COURT: Go ahead, Ms. Menninger.


Q. On page 6, we have a letter of recommendation for you. Do you see that?


Q. Glowing letter of recommendation, right?

A. Yes, it looks like it.

Q. And the person that is referred to who performed or wrote that letter of recommendation gave her qualifications, right?


Q. Her credentials, right?


Q. She was then on the board of the Palm Beach School of the Arts, right?

A. I didn't know that till I just saw it.

Q. Well, it's in your application, right? You solicited this letter of recommendation from her; correct?


5 6 Q. And that's the school that you ultimately went to in New York for senior year, right?


8 9 Q. And she was glowing in her support of your application to go to Interlochen when you were 13 years old; correct?


11 12 13 14 Q. I want to direct your attention to the last page in that exhibit, page 11. If I could have you read the third full paragraph; but, of course, omit your family name from that reading. If you could read it out loud.

15 A. The third paragraph?

16 Q. Yes, that begins with "Each."

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. Each child has their own individual personality and talent, but all three reflect the qualities of a strong, loving family background. The arts have always been a common interest with music as a binding love. The family organized and underwrote an annual charity performance for our school. After attending their Feastival of Lights, our school community has always felt we had witnessed the rebirth of the von Trapp family.

24 Q. The von Trapp family, is that right?

Q. And she was presently on the -- formerly, I'm sorry, a director of the Professional Children's School; correct?

4 5 6 Q. I also believe, just in case it wasn't audible, it said that you and your two brothers came from a strong and loving family background; is that right?

7 A. That's what it says.

8 9 10 Q. I want to turn to -- and we could show for the Court what's been marked for identification as J-4. But you're certainly welcome, Jane, to turn to that in paper form.

11 THE COURT: Not the jurors.

12 MS. MENNINGER: Not the jurors.

13 14 THE COURT: Please wait till I direct you. Please wait till I direct you. You can close your binders.

15 Thank you.

16 17 MS. MENNINGER: It's going to come out again, I hope soon.

18 BY MS. MENNINGER:

19 Q. Do you recognize this document?

20 A. I do not recognize the document per se.

21 Q. J-4?

22 A. But I recognize my signature.

23 Q. Okay. Do you believe that this is your application?


25 Q. And to the same Interlochen Arts Camp?

Q. And this was a reference to you and your two brothers, right?


4 5 Q. And that would have been an application for the next year, for the next summer, is that fair?


7 Q. All right.

8 9 10 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, at this time I'm moving for the admission of J-4, which I previously discussed with the government.

11 12 13 MS. III: No objection, your Honor. We would just ask that it be under seal and that any identifying information not be read into the record.

14 15 16 17 18 THE COURT: Okay. J-4 is admitted. It's admitted under seal consistent with my ruling that this witness may testify under pseudonym. And if any reference -- if any reading of the document occurs, everyone is admonished not to use the identifying information.

19 (Defendant's Exhibit J-4 received in evidence)

20 BY MS. MENNINGER:

21 22 Q. So if you need to turn on the second page, I think it has your signature, just for reference sake. Do you see that?


24 Q. Do you believe this is your application?

Q. And do you see the date on the upper right-hand corner?


Q. That was submitted in October of 1994?


5 Q. Up again on the top line above your name there is a

6 question: Are you applying for financial aid?

7 , the jurors can look at J-4 now, if

8 that's okay.

9 THE COURT: Without objection?

10 MS. III: No objection, your Honor.

11 THE COURT: You may open your binder to J-4, please.

12 Thank you.

13 14 Q. So we see your name in the top portion of the application, right?


16 17 Q. And then above that, are you applying for financial aid, and you checked no; correct?


19 20 21 Q. If you want to turn to page 2 of that exhibit, up on the top line there are some references and one is your father's name; is that right?


23 24 Q. And then next to that was your teacher from Palm Beach School of the Arts, right?

Q. And that would be for the summer of 1995?

4 A. A couple.

5 Q. Many performances singing, right?


7 Q. Plays, skits, etc., right?


9 10 Q. You had been in the New York Broadway production of and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat; correct?

11 A. I was not in the New York production.

12 Q. It was a local production?

13 A. It was -- it was the touring company in Florida.

14 Q. Okay.

15 16 MS. M: Your Honor, may I have just a moment to confer with defense counsel?

17 THE COURT: You

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19 • • Thank you, your Honor.

20 21 Q. And again, you said: Nothing has been very difficult for me. Correct?

22 A. I guess I did.

23 24 Q. On the next page you had submitted a letter asking to take extra classes the next summer, right?

25 A. Yeah.

Q. And then below that, again, it gave a little summary of where you were in your career in October of '94; correct? It talked about you had done commercials, right?


5 6 7 8 MS. MENNINGER: All right. And then if we could - not the jurors, if the jurors could wait a minute, could we have the witness identify what's been marked as J-5, which is the next exhibit?

9 10 THE COURT: Jurors, close your binders please. And keep them on your laps, but close them. Thank you.

11 Q. Do you see the exhibit at J-5?


13 Q. And that has your signature as well, correct?


15 16 Q. And there's a date on the upper left-hand corner, do you see that date?


18 19 Q. And do you believe this to be your application for the summer of 1996?


21 Q. All right.

22 23 MS. MENNINGER: At this time I would move for the admission of J-6.

24 25 MS. III: No objection, your Honor. We'd ask that this exhibit be received under seal for the same reasons.

Q. And your address on this application for the summer of '95 is the same address as the one that was on your application for the summer of '94; correct?

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THE COURT: Okay. J-6 is admitted. It's admitted under seal, consistent with my ruling --

MS. MENNINGER: I'm sorry, J-5 for 1996.

THE COURT: II, I apologize, J-5. J-5 is admitted under seal consistent with my ruling that this witness may testify under a pseudonym, and without objection from the government.

(Defendant's Exhibit J-5 received in evidence)

THE COURT: I'll direct, Ms. III, the jury to look at the binder, J-5.


THE COURT: All right.

Jurors, you may look at J-5 please.


Q. So on J-5 we have your signature there again; correct?


Q. And you were applying for the high school level, right?


Q. And you had a new address for this application for the summer of 1996; correct?


Q. That address is the one we talked about yesterday that was in the Bear Lake Estates gated community, right?


Q. I want to show you, at the bottom of that page, it's the

same teacher who had supported you from the prior year's application; correct?

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Q. And then if we could turn the page to the next page, on page 2 of J-5, in the second box down from the top, there's a label "Financial Information." Do you see that box?


Q. And in that box it asks: Are you applying for financial aid? And you said no. Correct?


Q. And then the next line says: Does the student applying expect to be the recipient of any funds, scholarship, grant, award, or prize from any country, state, organization, or individual specifically for attendance at the Interlochen Arts Camp. And you checked no. Correct?


Q. And then on that same page there is a little newspaper clip; correct?


Q. And I won't say the names of any performances, but it's talking about some performances that you and your brothers had performed in the area, right?


Honor? MS. MENNINGER: And if I may have one second, your 4 Q• And that you and your brothers had performed the last week for a School of the Arts performance locally; correct?


6 7 Q. And then you were going to be performing in another city in Florida in the upcoming days; is that right?

8 A. That's right.

9 10 Q. And then it said in April that you would be traveling to Italy for a vocal competition; correct?

11 A. Correct, with my school.

12 Q. And so this was in -- this was dated in 1996, right?

13 A. Yes,

14 15 16 17 Q. All right. And then if we could go to the last -- I'm sorry, page 5 of that exhibit we touched on briefly yesterday. On page 5 of that exhibit, it gives the camp fee structure for Interlochen for you for that summer, right?

18 A. It looks like it, yeah.

19 Q. And it's \$4,025 for the summer; correct?


21 Q. And you signed under that as well as your mother, right?


23 24 Q. And on none of these three applications is there any mention of Jeffrey Epstein; correct?


THE COURT: You may.


4 MS. MENNINGER: All right. At this point, if we could ask the jurors to close the binders, your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Please do. Thank you.

6 Q. I want to talk about the first time that you say you met

7 Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell, okay?


9 Q. And you claim that was in 1994 when you were 14, right?


11 12 13 14 Q. You testified yesterday on direct examination that you were sitting with friends at a picnic table, and a tall, thin woman approached you with a dog. And you chitchatted with her, and then a man came and joined her, right?


16 17 Q. You recalled a lot of details about that incident in 1994, right?


19 20 Q. You remember that the man had a newspaper under his arm which he put down on the table, right?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. You remember that you were on a break from classes, right?


24 25 Q. You were eating an ice cream cone and the man said, I think I know your mom. That's what you testified to yesterday;

Q. And there's no mention of Ghislaine Maxwell; correct?


4 Q. All right. You gave some statements about that meeting to several people over the course of the last 20 years, right?


6 7 Q. You spoke to your brother, your older brother Brian within a few days of that meeting, right?

8 9 A. I'm sorry, can you -- a few days of the meeting back in 1994?

10 Q. Right.


12 13 Q. Well, isn't it true that you told your brother Brian that you had been approached by Epstein?


15 16 Q. Isn't it true that you told your brother Brian that Epstein said he knew your dad and admired him?

17 A. I don't recall.

18 19 Q. Isn't it true you told Brian nothing about Ghislaine Maxwell being there at all; correct?

20 A. I don't recall.

21 22 Q. Do you remember talking to your younger brother about it over the last 20 years?

23 A. Over the last 20 years?

24 Q. Yes.

4 A. I don't recall.

5 6 Q. You didn't tell him anything about meeting a woman; correct?

7 A. I don't recall.

8 9 Q. And you also gave an interview to a news source about this initial meeting; correct?


11 12 13 Q. And when you spoke to that news source, you told the news person, journalist, that you were approached by Epstein; correct?


15 Q. You said nothing about Ghislaine being there?

16 A. I don't remember what I said.

17 18 Q. All right. Could I have you -- and only you and not the jurors -- take a look at J-13.

19 20 MS. MENNINGER: And for the Court and the witness we could put it on the screen.

21 22 If I could direct the witness's attention to page 2 of that document.

23 Q. Are you at page 2?


25 Q. And on the fourth paragraph, you told the reporter that

Q. And when you spoke to your younger brother about this initial meeting, you also told him that you only met Epstein; correct?

4 Q. You didn't say anything to the reporter about Ghislaine being there; correct?


6 7 Q. You spoke to the government for the first time, as we discussed yesterday, in September of 2019; correct?

8 A. I don't recall the exact date.

9 10 Q. Well, you were there in California with your lawyers and Ms. III and some others; correct?


12 13 Q. And what happened when you spoke to them then is you were asked about the first time that you met Ghislaine, right?


15 16 17 Q. And what you told the government on that day with your attorneys there is that Ghislaine walked by with her dog; correct?

18 A. I don't recall my exact vernacular.

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Epstein approached you; correct?

4 MS. III: Objection, your Honor.

5 MS. MENNINGER: 3509-002, page 1.

6 THE COURT: Can I have it on the screen?

7 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. 3509-002.

8 9 10 Q• What you told the government on September 19 of 2019 is that Ghislaine walked by with her dog and Jeffrey Epstein came up to meet you, correct?

11 A. I wouldn't have said that.

12 Q. So, the (inaudible) again.

13 (Reporter inquired)

14 MS. III: Objection, your Honor.

15 16 THE COURT: You cut out. I think I heard the question, but can you repeat the question?

17 Q. So the FBI got it wrong again?

18 MS. III: Objection, your Honor.

19 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

20 A. Maybe they typed it up wrong.

21 22 23 Q. What you told the government is that -- well, what you testified to yesterday is that both Ghislaine and Jeffrey told you that they give scholarships, correct?

24 A. I don't remember which -- I know Jeffrey said it.

25 Ghislaine was standing there.

BY MS. MENNINGER: (Continued)

Q. And you told the government that only Epstein came up to meet you, correct?

4 A. I cannot remember his exact verbiage this many years later.

5 Q. And Jeffrey said, can I have your mom's phone number?


7 Q. Not Ghislaine asking for your mom's phone number?


9 10 Q. You testified yesterday that you were sitting on a park bench with your friends, right?


12 13 14 Q. And when you filed your civil lawsuit in January of 2020 you said you were sitting alone on a bench between classes, correct?

15 A. I don't recall what was written.

16 17 Q. I want to talk about the second meeting that you had with Mr. Epstein. You went back home after camp that summer?


19 Q. And you started school for the school year, right?


21 22 23 Q. You testified yesterday that a few days after you got back to school, someone from Epstein's office called your mom, right?


25 Q. That someone from Epstein's office was not Ghislaine

Q. And that's right. Ghislaine didn't walk by?

A. No, she was right there.

Q. And Jeffrey said, can I give scholarships?


5 Q. Invited you to Epstein's house, correct?


7 Q. With your mother, right?


9 10 Q. And when you got to Epstein's house with your mother, it was 15 or 20 minutes away from your house, right?


12 Q. It was in -- your house was in West Palm Beach, right?

13 A. No, not at this time. It was in Palm Beach.

14 Q. You didn't cross any state lines, did you?

15 A. No.

16 17 Q. When you got to Epstein's house for tea, you and your mother sat by the pool?


19 Q. You were the only people there?


21 Q. Ghislaine was not there?


23 24 25 Q. Well, you spoke to the government in October of 2021, so two months ago. Do you recall speaking with them two months ago?

Maxwell, correct?


Q. Well, did the person invite you to Maxwell's house?

A. Yes. So I was sitting -- it was only the three of us having tea, yes. I don't recall if Ghislaine was in the house.

4 5 Q. Well, what you said to the government in October of 2021 at 3509-28 in the handwritten notes is, it was just Epstein, mom and you present, correct?

6 7 MS. III: Again, your Honor, I think we've been over reading documents that are not in evidence.

8 9 THE COURT: That statement is not inconsistent, so I'll sustain the objection with respect to that statement.

10 11 Q. At the first tea, the only people there were you and your mom and Epstein, correct?


13 14 Q. You never reported to the government that Ms. Maxwell was present for the tea, correct?

15 A. That's right.

16 17 Q. During the conversation, Epstein told you he gives scholarships and mentors people, right?


19 Q. He said he does that; not we do that, correct?


21 22 Q. And he did not refer to Ms. Maxwell at all during your initial meeting with him, correct?


24 Q. Wasn't a part of the conversation?

25 A. No.

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Q. After this tea with your mother, you went back to Epstein's house, correct?


Q. Yesterday you testified that for the first few months when you spent time with Epstein in Palm Beach, you were there by yourself. Do you remember that testimony?

A. I'm sorry, can you repeat that?

Q. Yesterday you testified that for the first few months when you spent time with Jeffrey Epstein in Palm Beach, you were there by yourself?

A. By myself as in without my mother.

Q. Right. You said --


Q. You were --

A. Yes, yes, without my mother.

Q. And then you clarified that your mother did not go back to his house with you for meetings because she was "not invited." That was your testimony yesterday, correct?


Q. That is not what you told the government when you met with them in September of 2019, is it?


Q. What you told the government in September of 2019, including Ms. II. is "In the beginning, I would be with my mother and brother"?

MS. I.: I object to just reading documents.

THE COURT: Let me see it. Let me see it before you 4 read, I'll see it, okay? And then you can make your objection, Ms. III' and I'll rule.

5 MS. MI: Thank you, your Honor.

6 THE COURT: Let me have the passage first.

7 8 9 MS. MENNINGER: It's going to be in 3509-001 on the second page, in the fourth paragraph beginning in the middle of the paragraph.

10 THE COURT: Ms. III?

11 12 MS. III: Your Honor, if the question is whether she made that statement, we have no objection.

13 THE COURT: Go ahead.

14 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you.

15 16 17 Q. What you said to Ms. III and the agents was, "In the beginning, I would be with my mother and brothers at Epstein's house," correct?

18 A. I don't recall that.

19 20 Q. You told the government nothing about your mother wasn't invited back to Epstein's house, correct?

21 A. I don't recall.

22 23 24 Q. And you talked thereafter about being driven repeatedly to Epstein's house by a chauffeur who was a sweet Latin American man, correct?


4 5 Q. So approximately a hundred times he picked you up over three years every week or two. That's your testimony, correct?

6 A. I'm not good at math, but I wouldn't recall how many times.

7 Q. Well, you testified under oath yesterday --


9 Q. -- that it was every week or two for three years, right?


11 12 13 Q. All right. You were asked yesterday by the government how these meetings at Epstein's house were typically arranged. Do you remember that question?


15 16 17 Q. And you said yesterday it was Ghislaine calling the house or Jeffrey's office calling the house like an assistant or something. Do you remember that testimony?


19 20 21 Q. That's not what you told the government in November of 2019 when you met with them then. And if we could turn to 3509-003 at page 1, fourth paragraph?

22 MS. IMI: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the number.

23 Q. 3509-003, first page, fourth paragraph.

24 MS. M: Thank you.

25 Q. What you told the government on that occasion is you were

Q. And you said that that sweet Latin American man picked you up every week or two while you were 14, 15 and 16 years old?


not sure if Maxwell ever called you to make appointments, correct?

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A. I don't recall. I don't know.

Q. And then on the next page in the same interview in the first paragraph, same document, next page, you said, "When in Florida, Epstein or his office would call your house," right?

A. I guess so.

Q. You didn't say Maxwell would call your house, right?

A. I guess -- I don't know. I guess so.

Q. And so two years later, now you remember that Ghislaine called your home to make appointments, right?


Q. That memory has come back to you in the last two years?

A. Well, memory is not linear.

Q. Do you remember that Mr. Epstein came to your house for dinner?


Q. In Bear Lakes Estate?


Q. Right? And he came to your house with your mother and your brothers there, correct?


Q. Ghislaine was not there?


Q. You recall that that did not happen right at the beginning

4 Q. And it was a year or two after meeting Epstein that he came to your house for dinner, correct?

5 A. I don't know the timeline, but it was at the new house.

6 7 Q. Well, in February of 2020, you told the government -- this is at 3509-008, page 12.

8 THE COURT: What paragraph?

9 Q. The fourth full paragraph beginning with the word "this."

10 11 12 13 At the end of that paragraph -- I'm sorry -- the middle of that paragraph is that you said to the government, "They visited you one to two times at your house in Florida. This was about a year or two after meeting him," correct?

14 A. Correct, I guess.

15 16 Q. So then you remembered it was a year or two, but you don't remember it today. Is that right?

17 18 A. Well, I'm trying to be very accurate, so I don't know. I just know it's at the new house.

19 20 Q. And the dinner that you had at your house was prior to any abuse?

21 A. That's not true.

22 23 Q. Well, in the same interview in February of 2020, at page 11 --

24 25 about -- MS. Your Honor, I'd object to counsel testifying

of your meeting with Mr. Epstein, right?


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THE COURT: We're going to keep doing point to the passage. You'll read it, Ms. III. You'll let me know if there's an objection, okay?


THE COURT: So where are we reading?

Q. On page 11 of that same document in the last full paragraph, second sentence.

THE COURT: Okay. No objection. You

II. Menninger.

Q. What you told the government on that occasion is that at some point Maxwell and Epstein came to your house prior to the abuse, correct?


Q. You mentioned on direct examination that you felt Ghislaine had kind of become your big sister, right?


Q. And you have two older sisters as we discussed yesterday, correct?


Q. One is approximately ten years older than you, right?


Q. One is approximately 15 years older than you, correct?


Q. During the time you were in high school, you traveled to see your sisters?

4 A. I don't recall what year, but, yes, at some point.

5 Q. You remember staying with her in Los Angeles, correct?


7 Q. Before you lived in Los Angeles?


9 Q. So it was while you were still in high school, right?


11 12 Q. And you traveled to Boston to visit the other sister, correct?

13 A. No, that's the same sister.

14 Q. Same sister, a different time?


16 Q. In high school, right?

17 18 A. Middle school -- no, middle school and then, okay, once in high school.

19 20 Q. And your own sisters took you shopping on occasion, correct?


22 Q. They took you to the movies, correct?


24 25 Q. Over the years, they've talked to you about your boyfriends, correct?


Q. You traveled to Los Angeles to visit and stay with one of them there, correct?


4 Q. You've never had a boyfriend?

5 A. Not in high school, I didn't.

6 7 Q. Sorry. My question was had you ever over the years spoken to your sisters about boyfriends?

8 A. Over the years, yes.

9 10 Q. Because yesterday you suggested that you hadn't had normal relationships, right?

11 A. Right.

12 13 Q. But you have had boyfriends for multiple years at a time, correct?


15 16 17 Q. You talked a little bit about Ghislaine and Epstein taking you to see the movies; you said that's something that you guys did together, right?


19 20 Q. You went to a movie theater in the area of Epstein's house in Florida, correct?


22 Q. Which is a nice area, right?


24 Q. They were normal movie theaters?


Q. You have not talked to your sisters about your boyfriends?

A. I never had any boyfriends.

4 Q. And Epstein would direct who was supposed to sit where in the movie theater, correct?


6 7 Q. And he did not sit next to you in the movie theater, correct?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 10 11 Q. Well, let's turn -- well, not you, but we'll look at February 27 of 2020 when you spoke with the government, 3509-008 on page 3.

12 13 MS. M: Your Honor, could we have just a very brief sidebar about this issue?

14 15 THE COURT: Can you tell me what paragraph I'm reading? And then yes.

16 17 MS. MENNINGER: It's going to be on page 4 at the end of the paragraph that began on the page 3, the last sentence.

18 (Continued on next page)

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Q. Sometimes other girls went with you, right?


(At the sidebar)

MS. III: Thank you, your Honor. And I apologize for asking for a sidebar, but I'm hoping this will streamline things. The issue is at a number of times the witness has testified that she doesn't recall, and instead of showing the witness the document and asking if that refreshes her recollection, which is the only thing that would be proper at that juncture, I believe counsel is now just reading reports into the record, which is not proper.

THE COURT: Well, the question was yesterday you testified --

(Pause)

THE COURT: So, yes, she said she didn't remember if Epstein directed where they sat.

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, under 613, I'm not obligated to show the witness a prior statement before I ask her about it. I have to give her an opportunity --

THE COURT: She said she didn't remember. What's the inconsistency?

MS. MENNINGER: Well, your Honor, her not remembering I don't have to refresh her recollection. Her memory is at issue in this case. If she can't remember what she said a month ago or two months ago or a year ago, that's relevant to the jury's determination. Then we can put on evidence through other witnesses that that is in fact what she said to the

4 THE COURT: Your theory is everything that she -- when you ask her, "What did you say on this date to the government," she says, "I don't remember."

5 6 7 MS. MENNINGER: Her story has changed like a hundred thousand times, and that is exactly what the problem is here, your Honor.

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 THE COURT: Well, here's the problem: There is a way you can get in her story has changed, but what you're doing and what -- I don't know what the limits to this would be. You're asking her very specific questions about multiple instances of reporting, and when she said "I don't remember what I said in that moment," you're then introducing the statements of what she said.

15 16 MS. MENNINGER: I can say, isn't it true that you said this? That's the other way to phrase it.

17 18 THE COURT: You could say "do you recall saying this to the government"? If she says no, then you move on.

19 MS. MENNINGER: Right. That's all I've been doing.

20 THE COURT: Is that right?

21 22 23 24 25 MS. III: Yes, your Honor. I think we're talking about two different scenarios. The first is, for example, if Ms. Menninger asked the witness, "Did this meeting happen on a particular date" or you know "were you living in the blue house" for example. If the witness says, "I don't remember,"

government on that date.

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then we're talking about refreshing her recollection with a document. If the witness says something that Ms. Menninger believes to be inconsistent with a prior statement, the question then is instead, not a document, but do you recall like isn't it true that you told the government X? And if the witness says, "I don't remember that," then that's the record. If the witness says, "Yes, I said that," then that's the impeachment.

The documents themselves are impeachment by collateral material. The proper way to do this is to ask the witness whether she said something or not. If she denies it, then the way to do that is through the witnesses to that meeting, and not by asking the witness to read a document that she didn't prepare into the record, which is what's happening.

THE COURT: Well, what I understand you to be saying is you want first her to show it to her and see if it refreshes her recollection.

MS. III: Yes, your Honor, if she says she doesn't recall. If she denies the fact and the point is to impeach her with a fact of a prior inconsistent statement --

THE COURT: Well, I think the window of disagreement is not just an inconsistent statement but that she doesn't recall -- no, I think you're right. So if she doesn't recall what she said in a meeting, you can refresh her recollection as to what she said. If she says, "I didn't say that" or "I don't

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recall," you can say, "Didn't you say the following to the FBI agent," and then --

MS. MENNINGER: So I believe that I do not have to refresh for impeachment, but I can ask her --

THE COURT: You're claiming that because she doesn't recall what she said, it's an inconsistent statement. There's not an inconsistency there.

MS. MENNINGER: So, I can ask her, "Did you say this?" She can say, "I don't recall." And then I can say, "Isn't it true you said it on this date?" And she can say, "No, I didn't" or "I still don't recall."

THE COURT: Every trial I've been to with these materials I've presided over -- and there's been a lot in ten years -- this precise thing happens. You testified X. Didn't you tell the agent some variation of x or Y.

I don't remember way said to the agent.

You show them the 302. Does that refresh your recollection, or didn't you -- and didn't you say if it doesn't refresh your recollection and then you get to do precisely what you're doing.

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, may I get the statute book because it says right in 613.

THE COURT: Sure.

MS. MENNINGER: Yesterday I tried to show the witness an exhibit and I was directing her to when the exhibit was made and what the date of the interview was, and nobody liked that. So today I tried --

THE COURT: I don't think I sustained an objection to that.

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MS. MENNINGER: Well, I said here's the date and then there was an objection at the time. But in Rule 613(a), it says: When showing or disposing the statement during examination. When examining a witness about the witness' prior statement, a party need not show it or disclose its contents to the witness. But the party must on request show it or disclose its contents to an adversary party's attorney.

And so because I don't believe I have to show it to her. If I want to prove it later with extrinsic evidence, she has to be given an opportunity to explain or deny the statement and the adversary party is given an opportunity to examine the witness about it. That's the way I read that rule.

THE COURT: So the extrinsic evidence of a witness' prior inconsistent statement. My point is if she says she doesn't remember, it's not an inconsistent statement. You have to get to a point of inconsistency.

MS. MENNINGER: Here is the inconsistency.

THE COURT: When you're doing it based on what she testified to yesterday, if there's a difference, yes.

MS. MENNINGER: That's what I've been trying to do.

THE COURT: Here you're saying on this date you said

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Epstein told you where to sit. She says, "I don't remember." It's not an inconsistent statement. That's the difference. Then you can refresh her on what she said. But if what you're doing is -- right? What's inconsistent about you saying, "You said X to the agent," and she says, "I don't remember." Is that an inconsistency?

MS. MENNINGER: The statement that she gave yesterday versus what her statement to the agent that's what I'm trying.

THE COURT: I let you do that. I let you do that. Just now the example that drew the objection you said Epstein didn't -- you told the agent you didn't sit next to Epstein and she said "I don't remember."

MS. MENNINGER: Okay. So I will show her for that type of example --

THE COURT: But I agree with you if you have a prior statement that is inconsistent with testimony, that's when we're there.

MS. III: Yes, your Honor and in that scenario, it's a question: Did you say that to the agent on this date? If not, showing the witness the document and asking her to read it into the record. The question is, did you make that statement?

MS. MENNINGER: I just asked.

THE COURT: I agree. I think you did it right up until this moment when we didn't have and inconsistent statement? We're in vigorous disagreement.

MS. STERNHEIM: Vigorously.

4 I want to pause. Counsel, one of the exhibits referenced was not in one of the jurors' binders, so I want to just correct that.

5 6 was? can you let counsel know what exhibit it

7 8 MS. MENNINGER: My apologies, your Honor. We'll get that fixed.

9 10 THE COURT: Thank you. And thank you to the juror for alerting us.

11 12 MS. MENNINGER: If there is anyone else that has a problem.

13 Thank you, your Honor.

14 15 16 17 THE COURT: I apologize for that. I'm grateful to the jurors. If anything like that happens, feel free to kind of raise your hand in the moment and we'll have as she always does, make things right.

18 (Pause)

19 20 21 THE COURT: I think we're not in the binders at the moment, so while Mr. Everdell is working on that, you'll proceed.

22 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.

23 BY MS. MENNINGER:

24 25 Q. I believe we were talking about you going to the movies with Epstein and Ghislaine. Do you remember that?

THE COURT: Ms. Menninger, you can take off your mask.

4 A. I don't recall.

5 6 Q. Okay. If I could have you look at 3509-008, page 4, in the binder sorry. Just you.

7 A. Sorry, 35 what?

8 Q. It's in the first set.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. She'll show it to you, I apologize.

11 THE COURT: It's on the screen.

12 13 Q. 004 -- I'm sorry, page 4 of 008, and the top paragraph and the last line of that top paragraph.

14 A. Okay.

15 16 Q. You told the agents that Epstein would decide where everyone sat?


18 Q. Correct?

19 20 MS. III: Objection, your Honor. Same issue. The question is whether that refreshes her recollection.

21 THE COURT: Go ahead.

22 23 Q. Does it refresh your recollection what you told the government?


25 Q. And what you told the government is that Epstein would


Q. And isn't it true that you told the government that you did not sit next to Epstein in the movie theaters?

4 Q. And you told them that you did not sit next to Epstein, right?

5 A. Right.

6 7 Q. But when you were in the movie theater, nothing sexual was happening; you weren't sitting next to him, right?

8 A. Right.

9 10 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the first time that you saw Ghislaine without her clothes on, correct?


12 13 Q. You said that happened shortly after the first incident in the pool house, correct?


15 16 Q. And you described that you were just hanging out and all of a sudden Epstein demanded that you follow him upstairs, right?

17 A. I'm sorry, can you clarify which --

18 19 Q. The first time that you saw Ghislaine without her clothes on is what you claimed. Do you remember that?

20 A. The first time I saw her without a top on was by the pool.

21 22 Q. Yesterday Ms. III asked you about the first time you saw Ghislaine without her clothes on. Do you recall that?

23 24 A. I -- I don't recall which question you were referring to or I don't recall, sorry.

25 Q. You don't recall the first time you saw Ghislaine without

decide where everyone sat, correct?


4 5 6 Q. The question from Ms. III was the first time you saw Ghislaine with her clothes off, and you didn't have any question about what she meant.

7 MS. III: Objection to form.

8 THE COURT: Sustained.

9 Q. Yesterday you were asked:

10 11 Q . Did there ever come a time when you saw Ghislaine Maxwell without her clothes on?"

12 Do you recall that question?


14 Q. And you said yes?


16 Q. You didn't say her top or not her top?

17 MS. III: Objection to form.


19 Q. Right?

20 A. Right.

21 22 23 Q. And you described a whole scenario where you claim you and Epstein and Ghislaine went upstairs and there was fondling in a room. Do you recall relating that to this jury yesterday?


25 Q. When you spoke with the government in December of 2019, you

her clothes on?

A. Yes, I do recall, but to be specific, topless or completely naked?

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told them that you do not have a specific memory of the first time with Ghislaine?

Q. Yesterday did you give a specific memory of the first time that you recall being in a massage scenario with Ghislaine?


Q. All right. And when you spoke with the government in December of 2019, you told them you do not have a specific memory of the first time with Ghislaine.


THE COURT: That's not a question.

Q. Isn't it true that you told the government in December of 2019 that you do not have a specific memory of the first time with Ghislaine?

Q. You did not tell the government in December of 2019 about a scenario of you following Ghislaine and Jeffrey upstairs and the three of you were alone, correct?


Q. In fact, there was a period of time that you claim that it was just you and Jeffrey alone, and you had not been present with Ghislaine?

4 5 6 Q. Yesterday you testified that it was shortly after the pool house that you had this incident with Epstein and Ghislaine, right?

7 A. Right.

8 9 10 Q. When you spoke with the government before, you said that some period of time, months went by before you ever had an incident with Ghislaine, correct?

11 MS. III: Objection to form.

12 13 14 15 THE COURT: I will sustain it. You've drawn on different meetings with the government. You have to specify which one you're talking about so that the witness can answer whether she recalls or not.

16 17 Q. Previously you told the government you do not have a specific memory of your first time with Ghislaine.

18 MS. III: Objection to form.

19 20 MS. MENNINGER: This is just foundational to the next question.

21 22 THE COURT: But give a -- give what you are asking about, give the date that you're asking about.

23 24 Q. In December of 2019, you told the government you do not have a specific memory of your first time with Ghislaine.

25 Moving on from that, because you do not have a


THE COURT: Sustained. I don't understand the time frame of that question.

specific --

4 5 MS. MENNINGER: That was just admitted. I'm just laying the foundation for the next question. That was the last thing.

6 7 MS. III : Your Honor, I'm not sure what the question

8 THE COURT: You don't have a question yet. Go ahead.

9 BY MS. MENNINGER:

10 11 12 13 Q. Because you have no specific memory of your first time with Ghislaine in December of 2019, you have come up with that memory in the last two years, the one you gave yesterday, correct?

14 MS. M: Objection to form.

15 THE COURT: Overruled.

16 17 A. I come up with -- I don't believe I've come up with a memory, no.

18 19 Q. Well, you gave a memory to the jury yesterday that you didn't have in December of 2019, right?

20 A. I don't recall.

21 22 Q. You then later met with the government in February of 2020, right?


24 25 Q. And what you told the government in February of 2020 is that the first time you were involved with Ghislaine, there


4 Q. At 3509-008, page 4, first full paragraph, beginning in the middle of the paragraph.

5 6 MS. III: And, your Honor, is the question whether that refreshes the witness' recollection?

7 THE COURT: That will be the question. Go ahead.

8 9 Q. Does it refresh your recollection to read the sentence beginning with the first time? Yes or no.


11 12 13 Q. It refreshes your recollection, it's true that you told the government that the first time with Maxwell, there were two other girls there as well, correct?

14 15 A. Correct, but the wording that was typed up on this isn't correct, so I don't know how to --

16 Q. Another typo by the government?

17 MS. III: Objection, your Honor.


19 Q. It's another typo?


21 22 23 24 Q. So, yesterday you gave a story that is different from December 2019 when you had no specific memory and is different from February 2020 when there were two other girls there as well, correct?

25 MS. III: Objection. Compound.

were two other girls there as well, correct?

5 Q. And you remember those times, right?

6 A. Not all, but yes.

7 8 9 10 Q. When you spoke with the government at the February 2020 meeting, they asked you if there were times where it was just you, Epstein and Ghislaine in the room, and you said you were not sure, correct?


12 Q. You said you were not sure that ever happened, correct?

13 A. I don't recall.

14 Q. You were not sure where it happened, correct?

15 A. I don't recall.

16 17 Q. You only remembered being solely with Epstein and going back to the group setting, correct?

18 A. I don't recall.

19 20 Q. It is true that you do not recall Ghislaine ever touching you?

21 A. That's not true.

22 23 24 25 Q. When you spoke to the government in December of 2019 with your lawyers there, and you told the government at that time you are not sure whether Maxwell ever touched you during these encounters, correct?

Q. Yesterday you testified that there were times when Ghislaine was in the room with you and Epstein, correct? 4 A. I don't recall.

5 6 Q. You told the government that Ghislaine never used sex toys or vibrators on you, correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 9 Q. You told the government that you don't recall Ghislaine ever giving you a talk about how to massage Epstein, correct?

10 A. I don't recall.

11 12 Q. You told the government that Ghislaine never saw you perform oral sex on Epstein, correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 15 Q. You told the government that Ghislaine never saw you perform hand jobs on Epstein, to use your words, correct?

16 A. I don't recall.

17 18 Q. You told the government that Ghislaine never saw you involved in any masturbation with Epstein, correct?

19 A. I don't -- know or I don't recall.

20 21 Q. You told the government that Ghislaine never saw you engaged in sexual intercourse with Epstein, correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 24 25 Q. You told the government you have no memory of Ghislaine being present when you claim Epstein engaged in any sexual contact with you, correct?


Q. You told the government that you're not sure that Maxwell ever kissed you, correct?

4 Q. You told the government you have no memory of Ghislaine being present when you claim Epstein engaged in any sexual contact with you, correct?


6 7 Q. You told the government that Ghislaine never discussed any sexual abuse with you, right?

8 A. Whether she discussed abuse with me?

9 Q. Right.

10 A. Right.

11 Q. It was very compartmentalized. It was never discussed.


13 14 Q. No one gave you any feedback afterwards. It was never mentioned, right?


16 Q. No one asked you if Epstein had fun, right?

17 A. I don't recall.

18 MS. MENNINGER: Can I have one moment, your Honor?

19 THE COURT: You may.

20 (Pause)

21 22 23 24 Q. So if we could go back to your conversations with the government in February of 2020, and if I could direct your attention to 3509-008 at page 5, in the second paragraph, I'm going to ask you if this refreshes your recollection?

25 MS. : Your Honor, about what?

A. I'm sorry, can you repeat that?

4 THE COURT: Well, you will have to ask it again.

5 MS. MENNINGER: I will.

6 THE COURT: You will ask the question again.

7 Q. Before she does it, okay.

8 9 10 11 You said you don't recall whether or not you ever told the government that you and Ghislaine and Jeffrey were alone together in the room. You were not sure that ever happened. Do you recall that testimony?

12 A. I don't recall that, no.

13 14 15 16 Q. If I could have you look at 3509-008, page five, the last paragraph, the first sentence in that paragraph, if you could read that to yourself, tell me whether that refreshes your recollection?

17 A. It doesn't, but I read it, yeah.

18 Q. So, what you told the government on February 27, 2020

19 MS. III: Objection, your Honor.

20 THE COURT: Overruled.

21 22 23 Q. is that when asked if there were times when it was only you, Epstein and Ghislaine in the room, you said you were not sure, correct?

24 A. That's what it says.

25 Q. You were not sure that ever happened in February of 2020,

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. MENNINGER: Something that she earlier said she doesn't recall.

1 right?

2 MS. [REDACTED]: Your Honor, objection. Is the question
3 whether she made the statement, whether she remembers it,
4 whether she's reading it from a document it's very unclear.

5 THE COURT: You will rephrase, please.

6 Q. As you sit here today, you're not sure whether you were
7 ever in the room alone with Ghislaine and Epstein, correct?


9 Q. I asked you if you recall telling the government that
10 Ghislaine never touched you?

11 A. I don't recall that.

12 Q. If I could have you take a look at 3509-005. That's going
13 to be difficult.

14 On page 3 of 3509-005, in the second full paragraph in
15 the middle of the paragraph there's a sentence that begins with
16 your name, and I would like you to read that and tell me if
17 that refreshes your recollection that you said that to the
18 government in December of 2019?

19 A. Which paragraph?

20 Q. The second full paragraph in the middle of the paragraph
21 beginning with your name.


23 (Continued on next page)

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4 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you told the government you do not have a recollection and are not sure if Ghislaine touched you during these encounters; correct?


6 7 Q. Isn't it true that's what you told the government on that date?

8 A. I don't remember, but it's written here.

9 10 11 12 Q. I want to turn back to your statement that you don't recall whether you ever told the government that Ghislaine did not see you performing oral sex on Epstein. Is that what you told the government?


14 15 16 17 18 Q. If I could have you look at 3509-008 at page 10. And I ask you to look at the first full paragraph and the last sentence of that paragraph. Does that refresh your recollection of whether Ghislaine was ever present for instances of oral sex between you and Epstein?


20 21 22 Q. It's true that you don't know whether Ghislaine was ever present for you having oral sex in any way with Epstein; correct?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. That's what you told the government, didn't you?

25 A. I don't remember.


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MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, is now an appropriate time for a break? I was about to start another area.

THE COURT: All right. We can take our morning break.

Members of the jury, we'll take about a ten-minute break. Thank you.

(Jury not present)

THE COURT: Matters to take up, counsel?

Just a moment. You may step out, Jane. Thank you.

Everyone

• Thank you, your Honor.

Just two --

THE COURT: Just a moment. Go ahead.


Two issues to raise.

The first is the issue that we raised earlier this morning about the remaining anonymity issue. Happy to raise that at this time, if it's appropriate. I don't know if it's coming up soon in cross-examination.


MS. III: But we would prefer to raise that at sidebar because it relates to anonymity.

The second issue is the Rule 408 issue I flagged this morning relating to documents we received a few minutes before the beginning of the court day. Happy to front that issue now while we have a break if the Court would like to hear that

issue.

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THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.

MS. III: So with respect to the Rule 408 issue, defense counsel has provided the government this morning just before the Court day with a few documents they've marked as exhibits.

THE COURT: One moment. Go ahead.

MS. III: Those two documents are correspondence between Jane's attorney and the victim compensation fund, as well as correspondence from Jane's attorney and Ms. Menninger's law firm.

To the extent defense counsel intends to offer these as exhibits, there's a Rule 408 issue here.

MS. MENNINGER: I don't, your Honor.


MS. III: I just want to ensure any questions about this are framed as Jane's knowledge about the litigation and not asking for her to testify about documents that aren't in evidence, that she may not have seen, that are prepared by attorneys. In order to avoid confusion, we want to make sure that any questions about civil litigation are about what she knows or doesn't know. I want to avoid a scenario in which a lay witness is shown legal documents and asked to read them into the record or testify to them beyond the scope of her knowledge.

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THE COURT: So that's not a 408 issue, it's a scope of knowledge issue.


It's a 408 issue to the extent the questions are about negotiations related to settlements which would only be admissible in order to show bias under the second prong of the rule. And that's where the scope of knowledge issue comes into play, because facts along those lines would only be relevant under Rule 408 if this witness were aware of them. So we just wanted to make sure any examination was cabined along those lines.

THE COURT: Ms. Menninger?

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, in those two documents, the attorney in a civil matter for this witness demanded sums of money. And there was one in the civil case. He was acting in his capacity, and she was a party in that case, and he was her lawyer. So his statements are adoptive admissions by the party from that case that she was demanding the money that's claimed in that letter. That's the first one.

THE COURT: And so what do you expect to do? You expect to ask what?

MS. MENNINGER: You were demanding \$25 million to settle your civil law claim while Ms. Maxwell was pending in this criminal case, I might add. That's the first one.

THE COURT: Okay. So the question is, Were you

demanding \$25 million in civil litigation while this criminal case was pending?

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As long as it's framed in terms of her knowledge; we have no objection to what she knows about or was involved in.

What we want to avoid is a scenario where following a question like that, a legal document exchanged between attorneys was then shown to the witness to refresh her recollection, and this witness was asked to read into the record comments her attorney made, which would not be admissible under Rule 408 if she doesn't know about them because they can't speak to her bias if she is not aware of those communications.

THE COURT: So just to spin out the question, Were you demanding \$25 million during -- in a civil lawsuit while this criminal investigation was pending?

I suppose one response would be I don't know, one response is yes, and one response is no.

So if the response is yes, you move on?


THE COURT: If the response is I don't know, what do you do?

MS. MENNINGER: Refresh her recollection with her own

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attorney's letter to my law firm in which he's demanding that and the date of the letter. If she wants to say she doesn't know what her civil attorney is doing acting on her behalf, I guess she could say that.

THE COURT: Okay. So if it doesn't refresh her recollection, we move on. And then if the answer is no, what then?

MS. MENNINGER: Well, your Honor, that leads to a potential scenario with her attorney being a witness. But I think we would cross that bridge on another day.


The question remains about her knowledge. And again, if we're refreshing this witness's recollection with a document she hasn't seen, I just want to make sure that the question is very precisely framed. Because there have been a number of times already this morning where the witness has been asked to just read the document and has given answers like, I don't know, but I guess that's what this says, which is beyond the scope of refreshing a recollection. So I just want to ensure we're not asking this witness to read into the record hearsay statements of her attorney which she doesn't have knowledge.

THE COURT: If she says, I don't know, you can try to refresh her recollection. The question is, Does this refresh your recollection? If the answer is no, we move on. And then you do --

4 5 And if the answer is -- so she says no. And you show it to her and ask if that refreshes her recollection. And if the answer is no, we move on.

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 MS. MENNINGER: The second one, your Honor, is in the victims' compensation program. As your Honor may have seen, she was offered an award. And after that award was offered, her lawyer -- the same lawyer in that proceeding -- wrote basically a motion for reconsideration and said that the award was not appropriate; that it should at least be an eight-figure award. So that delayed the whole -- you know, her decision to join in the -- or to accept the award. And I believe that is, again, an adoptive admission or a statement because he was acting in her capacity as her lawyer in a civil case while this criminal case was pending.

17 THE COURT: So what's the question you'll ask.

18 19 20 21 22 MS. MENNINGER: They are the same, your Honor. It's essentially, Didn't you get offered an award of \$5 million and felt that that was not sufficient? And your attorney, on your behalf, went back to the claims program and asked for an eight-figure settlement instead.

23 MS. III: Yes, your Honor.

24 25 Again, the substance of that testimony would only be relevant under Rule 408. If this witness knows about it and,

MS. MENNINGER: We cross that --


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thus, it's offered about her particular bias --

THE COURT: Well, you heard the question.


THE COURT: Do you object to the question?

MS. III: We do object to the question. If the question is, Did you seek an increased amount in the settlement award, I have no objection to that. If the question is, Isn't it true your attorney made the following statement, that question is objectionable.

THE COURT: Under 408.


MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, it goes to bias, her motive to testify in this case, and her bias against my client.

THE COURT: Let's start with a more basic issue which no one has briefed, but Manko v. United States, are you familiar?

MS. III: I'm not, your Honor.

THE COURT: 87 F.3d 50 (2d Cir. 1996).

I'll quote: "the policy that underlies Rule 408 does not apply to criminal prosecutions. The policy favoring the encouragement of civil settlements sufficient to bar their admission in civil actions is insufficient, in our view, to outweigh the need for accurate determinations in criminal cases where the stakes are higher."

Is that good law?

4 5 THE COURT: I mean, that's what it says. I'll admit there may be some complications, but I'd like to know the government's position on that.

6 7 MS. III: Yes, your Honor. We'd be happy to take a quick look into it.

8 9 10 11 THE COURT: It will probably take more than a quick look. It's complicated. That case is in the context of the defense seeking to introduce civil litigation settlement. Is defense aware of this case? Anybody have knowledge? No.

12 Who reads Second Circuit cases?

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 In the context of the defense seeking to introduce, the rule was subsequently amended, there's been no intervening Second Circuit interpretation. The rule is amended because the government wanted some ability to introduce in some context civil settlement matters. So the rule has been changed now, by its terms, at least, not in the case of motive and bias, it does appear to apply in criminal settings. But I don't think that the amendment, which was not -- I don't think that amendment is sufficiently overruling of the Second Circuit decision for me not to be bound by that Second Circuit decision. But you'll, I'm sure, take a look at that issue.

24 MS. M: Yes, your Honor.

25 And just to widen the aperture of the issue, what

MS. III: Your Honor, I'm not -- I take the Court at its word. I'm not familiar --

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we're talking about is impeachment. And so a statement or an issue of bias that's being offered for impeachment, whether we're talking about a Rule 408 issue or otherwise, is only relevant and permissible if this witness knows about it.

THE COURT: I agree there are personal knowledge questions in issue. I did ask you specifically if it was a 408 issue, and you said yes. You're on your feet, of course, now, and have to respond to me quoting a Second Circuit decision at you. And, of course, district courts are required to follow Second Circuit precedent even if its intention was subsequent changes in the law, unless and until the case is reconsidered by the Second Circuit sitting en banc or its equivalent or is rejected by a later Supreme Court decision.

So I do think there may be a question of the change in the rule and what the scope of that was and whether it overturns the Second Circuit decision such that I'm not bound by it. I doubt it. Separate and apart from that is the question of whether she has personal knowledge of what her attorneys did, right.


THE COURT: It's not a 408 issue, it's a foundation question, personal knowledge question.

Ms. Menninger made an argument that in the civil litigation context, she could be assumed to have adopted the position of her attorneys. I think we do get to that bridge,

if we need to cross it, so let's see if there's a memory -- if there's an awareness or not. And if she doesn't know and the answer is no, I think we'll move on until I hear from you as to how it might come in.

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And we'll look into the Rule 408 issue. If we have that wrong, we'll certainly withdraw that objection. And I appreciate the Court flagging that.

THE COURT: I assume that's why you hadn't raised 408 in your motion to quash. In any event, one of the parties raised 408, so we looked at it and that was as far as we got.

Anything else?


There was just that brief anonymity.

THE COURT: yes. Let's do that at sidebar.


(Pages 491 to 495 SEALED)


4 THE COURT: Matters to take up?

5 MS. : Not from the government, your Honor.

6 MS. MENNINGER: No. Thank you, your Honor.

7 THE COURT: We can bring the witness.

8 And can bring in the jury.

9 10 Mr. Everdell, did you get the binders squared away for the jurors?

11 12 13 14 15 16 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I did look, and the one juror referenced the letter of recommendation. And those, I think, would have been with the Interlochen applications. And I looked at all of those in both binders, and they look to be complete. I just think that he or she may have missed the page.

17 THE COURT: Okay. All right.

18 19 So maybe we'll take -- really make sure we're taking time to direct them

20 (Jury present)

21 22 THE COURT: All right. We will resume, Ms. Menninger, with your cross-examination of witness Jane.

23 And Jane, I remind you, you are under oath.

24 Go ahead, Ms. Menninger.

25 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.


THE COURT: Five minutes.

(Recess)


5 6 Q. You said that it occurred in a pool house in Florida; correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. His Palm Beach home; correct?


10 11 Q. The Palm Beach home that you went to, you say, for all three years; correct? Fourteen through 16.


13 14 Q. And the very first time that you were abused would be a very important part of your story, you would agree; correct?


16 17 18 Q. But when you talked to the government in December of 2019, isn't it true that you told them that the first time you were abused was in New York?

19 A. That is not correct.

20 21 Q. Isn't it true that you said you were in New York and you were abused when you went up there to take headshots?


23 24 25 Q. If I could direct your attention to 3509-005 on the second page. It's going to be the second paragraph up from the bottom.


Q. Yesterday you testified about the first time you were abused, you claim, by Epstein. Do you recall that testimony?

4 5 6 Q. So you're denying that you made the statement your first experience of abuse was when you were 14 years old in New York, you met Epstein to take headshots, and that is when he masturbated?

7 A. Yeah, this is incorrect.

8 9 10 Q. When you first talked to the government in December of 2019 about traveling to New York, you told them that on your first trip nothing inappropriate happened; correct?


12 13 Q. You told the government that your first trip was to just go and have fun; correct?


15 16 Q. If I could direct your attention to your statement from September of 2019, which is 001, at the second page.

17 18 MS. III: And I'd object to characterizing it as her statement.

19 THE COURT: Sustained.

20 MS. MENNINGER: I'm sorry, what? I didn't hear it.

21 22 23 MS. III: I'd object to characterizing this as her statement. I think the witness has been very clear these are not her statements.

24 25 MS. MENNINGER: I didn't hear it. I apologize, your Honor.

A. Yes. And with all due respect, I didn't write any of this and I've never read this document because this is incorrect.


5 6 MS. MENNINGER: I apologize. I may be on the wrong page. I'll find that in a minute. And I apologize.

7 8 9 10 Q. If I can direct your attention to a discussion you had with the government in February of 2020, where you told them that the first trip to New York was just to go and have fun. Is that true?


12 13 Q. Okay. If I could have you take a look at 008 on page 8 And it's going to be in the fourth full paragraph.

14 15 16 Does that refresh your recollection about what you told the government in February 2020 about your first trip to New York?

17 18 19 20 A. Like I said, with all due respect, I didn't write any of this. I've never read this before. And I was never recorded. This was just somebody jotting down notes, and so a lot of this is out of sequence and incorrect.

21 22 Q. Does that refresh your recollection about what you told the government about your first trip to New York?

23 A. No.

24 MS. III: Asked and answered, your Honor.

25 THE COURT: The answer is no.

THE COURT: I sustain.

Q. You spoke with the government in September of 2019; correct?

You may proceed.

4 MS. III: Asked and answered, your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Sustained.

6 A. No.

7 8 THE COURT: I sustained. If I sustain, pause. And then if I overrule, you can answer.

9 Go ahead, Ms. Menninger.

10 BY MS. MENNINGER:

11 12 13 Q. And it was later when you were talking to the government in April of 2020 that you said you only specifically recalled one incident in New York where Ghislaine was present; correct?


15 16 17 18 19 Q. If I could have you take a look at 3509-004. Okay. I'm sorry, 3509-003. Excuse me. And it's on the second page in the second full paragraph. If you could look at that second sentence in the second paragraph regarding how many incidents in New York.

20 21 MS. M: And, your Honor, is the question whether that refreshes her recollection or --

22 23 MS. MENNINGER: Right. I'm having her take a look at it.

24 Q. And does that refresh your recollection?

25 A. What page is this?

Q. Isn't it true you told the government on that occasion that your first trip to New York was just to go and have fun?

4 5 Q. Do you recall -- does this refresh your recollection about how many incidents in New York you recall with Ghislaine present?

6 A. I don't think I have the correct page.

7 8 THE COURT: You're directing to the second full paragraph, second sentence?

9 10 11 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor, the second full paragraph on page 2. The paragraph begins with "Maxwell." The second sentence of that paragraph.

12 MS. III: I also object as mischaracterizing.

13 THE COURT: Sustained.

14 15 Q. Did you tell the government that you recall one incident in New York where Maxwell was present?

16 MS. III: Same objection, your Honor.

17 THE COURT: Sustained.

18 A. Well, this one says --

19 THE COURT: Just a second. Go ahead.

20 21 Q. Did you tell the government you recalled at least one incident in New York where Maxwell was present?


23 Q. And that's what you relayed to them on that day; correct?

24 25 MS. III: Your Honor, again, I'd object to mischaracterizing these documents. It's very confusing for the

Q. On page 2. 3509-03, page 2.

A. What is the question?

witness.

4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, for at least --

5 THE COURT: Okay.

6 Q. You recall at least one incident in New York?

7 8 9 THE COURT: Are you asking that as a question of her memory now or are you asking her if she remembers relaying that to the FBI?

10 Q. Yes, do you remember that now?


12 Q. Okay.

13 14 MS. III: Your Honor, which was that about, her memory or whether it happened?

15 THE COURT: It was rephrased as about her memory now.

16 Next question, Ms. Menninger.

17 18 Q. That was a conversation you had in November of 2019 with the government; correct?


20 21 22 Q. And then by April of 2020, you reported to the government that you were abused 90 percent of the time you traveled with Epstein and Maxwell; correct?

23 MS. III: Objection, your Honor.

24 THE COURT: Overruled.


THE COURT: You've asked already do you recall having made that statement and the answer, I think, is yes?

4 MS. III: Objection, your Honor. Mischaracterizes THE COURT: Sustained.

5 6 Q. Has your story changed about how many times you remember abuse over the course of your discussions with the government?

7 A. No, and I didn't understand exactly the question.

8 9 10 Q. In September of 2019, when you first met with the government, you told them that you flew with Ghislaine and Epstein to New York to see The Lion ; correct?


12 13 Q. You told them that you flew to New York for the first time with them to see The Lion ; correct?

14 A. I said that, but I was incorrect in my timeline.

15 Q. You said that happened when you were 14, right?


17 18 Q. And that's the trip where you said nothing inappropriate happened; correct?

19 A. I don't recall.

20 21 Q. And you were, as we've seen, a student of theater and the arts at the time; correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 MS. III: Objection to form.

24 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.


Q. So you went from nothing inappropriate happened to being abused 90 percent of the time; correct?

4 Q. Especially The Lion when it came out; correct?


6 7 Q. And it would also be memorable to a young person to have their first trip on a private jet; correct?

8 A. Correct. But, once again, my timeline was wrong.

9 10 Q. Well, you told them that in September of 2019, right, when you first met with them?

11 A. I did say that, yes.

12 Q. You repeated that same story in December of 2019; correct?

13 A. I don't recall.

14 Q. You repeated that story in February of 2020; correct?

15 A. I don't recall.

16 Q. All right. I'll have you take a look at 3509-005 at 6 to

17 7. I apologize. 001 at page 2.

18 THE COURT: What paragraph?

19 20 MS. MENNINGER: I'm having a little trouble with my glasses. Just a moment, your Honor. I apologize.


22 MS. MENNINGER: Third paragraph, your Honor. Sorry.

23 THE COURT: Third full paragraph?

24 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor.


Q. A student of the arts would be pretty excited about their first trip to see a Broadway show; correct?


4 I think the question was about a number of different meetings, but we're now looking at the same notes. I think there's a confusing suggestion that we're talking about --

5 THE COURT: Okay.

6 BY MS. MENNINGER:

7 8 9 Q. The first time that you met with the government, you told them that you were flown to New York by Epstein and Maxwell to see The Lion

10 II. III: Objection. Asked and answered.

11 THE COURT: Just a moment.

12 Do you need a break?

13 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Yes.

14 THE COURT: Go ahead.

15 (Jury not present)

16 THE COURT: You can be seated.

17 Let me find out what's happening.

18 (Recess)

19 20 21 THE COURT: Just to be clear, it looked like a witness was having a coughing issue or sickness or something. That a juror, apologize.

22 (Pause)

23 24 25 THE COURT: Happy to report she's fine. She felt like something was stuck in her throat. She's getting some water and a cough drop and we'll resume. The juror, to be clear.

MS. III: Your Honor, I apologize. I'm confused.

4 (Jury present)

5 THE COURT: All right. Everyone please be seated.

6 7 8 Okay. Everybody is okay. I know it's always alarming to know you have to travel in a group always, but do let us know if you need anything. Thank you, everyone.

9 continue with your cross.

10 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.

11 BY MS. MENNINGER:

12 13 14 Q. So I think we were talking about in September of 2019 you agreed that you had told the government about flying to New York with Maxwell and Epstein to see The Lion ; correct?

15 A. I did not say that. Incorrect.

16 Q. Okay. If I can show you 3509-001, page 2, third paragraph.

17 18 19 20 A. Yes, I see that. And it's incorrect. This is not a transcript of mine. Nobody ever recorded me saying any of my statements. And I'm reading it right now and a lot of these are not correct.

21 22 23 Q. So you did not tell the government in September of 2019 that when you were 14 years old, you flew with Epstein and Maxwell to New York City to see The Lion

24 25 A. I flew with them to New York City and I had mistaken that we were going to see The Lion , but that was a different

MS. MENNINGER: I've been provided a light by

Ms. Sternheim to see.

THE COURT: great. These courtrooms are dark.


5 6 7 Q. All right. So let's turn to when you learned that you were wrong. Your attorney -- you repeated it a few times though, I guess that's my point?

8 MS. III: Objection, your Honor.

9 10 Q. That was the only time you told the government that you flew to New York to see The Lion with Epstein and Maxwell?

11 12 MS. III: Objection, your Honor, to form. It's an argument, not a question.

13 THE COURT: Overruled.

14 A. No, it's not the only time.

15 16 Q. You told it to them a couple times before you found out you were wrong, right?


18 19 20 21 Q. Okay. Well, let's go to your conversation in February of 2020, 008, page 8. And at that time you told the government your first trip to New York was to just go and have fun. It may have been the trip that you went to see The Lion

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23 24 II. III: Objection, your Honor. It's not inconsistent and, again, this is misleading.

25 THE COURT: You can --

trip.

Q. But you did say it, but you learned later you were wrong; correct?

4 5 Q. Does reading the second sentence of the fourth paragraph refresh your recollection about what you told the government in February of 2020?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You don't remember saying it then?


9 10 11 Q. Isn't it true what you said to the government in February 2020 is that your first trip to New York was to just go and have fun, this may have been the trip to see The Lion

12 Objection. Asked and answered.

13 THE COURT: Sustained.

14 15 Q. After this meeting in February 2020, your email your lawyer was Mr. Glassman at the time; correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 18 Q. Mr. Glassman got an email from a prosecutor, Mr. Rossmiller; correct?

19 MS. III: Objection to foundation, your Honor.

20 MS. MENNINGER: I'm not asking the contents.

21 THE COURT: Do you know?

22 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

23 THE COURT: Okay.

24 25 Q. At some point did your attorney, Mr. Glassman, come to you with a question?

MS. MENNINGER: Refresh?

THE COURT: Yes, you can ask if it refreshes.

4 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, it was communicated to the government, so the privilege had been waived.

5 MS. III: Your Honor

6 THE COURT: He didn't ask -- I sustained.


8 THE COURT: The question as phrased, sustained.

9 10 Q. Do you know whether your attorney ever communicated to the government an answer regarding The Lion

11 No objection, your Honor.

12 THE COURT: Good.

13 14 MS. MENNINGER: I know Ms. III would like to come do this for me, but --

15 MS. I do object to that, your Honor.

16 17 18 THE COURT: All right. Everybody calm down. The question is not objected to nor objectionable. You may state it again, Ms. Menninger.


20 21 22 Q. Do you know whether your attorney communicated to the government -- communicated with the government about your experience with The Lion and going to New York?

23 A. No, I don't know.

24 Q. Could looking at 3509-10 refresh your recollection?

25 MS. III: Your Honor, I object.

MS. III: Objection. Privileged.


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The witness testified that she doesn't know, not that she doesn't remember.


You can ask if this refreshes. This is precisely what we talked through. You can ask if it refreshes her recollection.

A. What is the question? Sorry.

Q. Does this refresh your recollection about your attorney communicating with the government about The Lion and Broadway?

A. Yes, but it doesn't reference the timeline, if that was the original question. I'm sorry. I'm confused.

Q. Is it true that your lawyer communicated to the government your recollection that, in fact, you had seen The Lion Broadway show and not the movie?

A. II, yes, I -- we did see the show.

Q. And you recalled seeing the Broadway show; correct?


Q. And you recalled sitting in the mezzanine seats; correct?


Q. And you recalled that Epstein bragged about getting those seats because he knew the director; correct?


Q. And your attorney communicated all of that to the government; correct?


5 6 7 Q. That's because the government communicated to you through your attorney that The Lion didn't come out until 1997; correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 10 11 12 Q. So although you had told the government twice previously that you flew to New York with Maxwell and Epstein when you were 14, you learned that the Broadway show didn't come out until you were 17; correct?

13 14 A. That's right. But that wasn't the first time that we'd flown.

15 16 Q. The government suggested to you that perhaps you meant to say The Lion movie through your attorney to you; correct?

17 MS. III: Objection, your Honor.

18 THE COURT: Sustained.

19 20 Q. Did Mr. Glassman share with you the email that he got from the government?

21 MS. III: Objection.

22 THE COURT: Sustained.

23 24 25 Q. You knew at the time you communicated the information to Mr. Glassman that he intended to share it with the government; correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And that was in response to a question from the government to you through your attorney; correct?

4 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, that's how we establish a waiver of the privilege.

5 MS. III: Objection, your Honor.

6 THE COURT: Sustained.

7 8 9 Q. When you first talked to the government about traveling to New Mexico, you told them that you were ignored on that trip; correct?

10 A. I don't recall.

11 12 13 Q. You recall telling the government that the first time you went on a private plane to New Mexico, you were not doing much and just sitting around; correct?


15 16 17 18 Q. Okay. Look at 3509-008 at page 6, and the second full paragraph, in the middle of the paragraph. Do you recall telling the government that the first time you went to New Mexico on Epstein's plane you were somewhat ignored?

19 A. No, I don't recall.

20 Q. Do you recall that you were told to go hiking?

21 A. I don't recall.

22 Q. Do you recall saying you were not impressed?

23 24 25 THE COURT: I need you to clarify. You're again switching between asking if it's a memory now or whether she remembers having said that to the government.

MS. III: Objection, your Honor.


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Q. As you sit here today, do you remember not being impressed when you went to New Mexico for the first time on the private plane?

A. I don't recall saying that.

Q. No. Do you recall as you sit here today that you were not impressed when you first went to New Mexico on a private plane?


Q. You do not recall any abuse happening when you first went to New Mexico; correct?

A. That's not correct, no.

Q. That's what you told the government in February of 2020; correct?

A. No, that's not correct. Like I said, this is not a transcript of mine. This is the first time I'm reading it and it's not correct.

Q. All right. I'm going to direct your attention to 3509-008, page 7, the last full paragraph. Does that refresh your recollection about what you told the government about your first trip to New Mexico?

A. No, it doesn't.

Q. And isn't it true you told the government in February of 2020 that on your first trip to New Mexico, you recalled going hiking, remembered not doing too much, just sitting around mostly, and did not recall specific abuse that may have occurred?

4 5 Q. Then I would like to direct your attention to the last sentence on that same page, where you were asked again if you recalled any specific abuse that occurred in New Mexico, and then turning to the next page, you stated you were not sure.

6 THE COURT: Do you have a question?

7 8 Q. Does that refresh your recollection now that you've seen that on the page?

9 A. No, it does not.

10 Q. Isn't it true that's what you said to the government?

11 A. I don't recall saying this.

12 13 Q. And you also told the government that your memory of the details of that location were not good; correct?

14 A. I don't recall saying that.

15 16 Q. Okay. If you could look at the top of the second page -- I'm sorry, of page 8. Does that refresh your recollection?


18 19 20 21 22 Q. Isn't it true you told the government regarding New Mexico the place was dark and you do not recall many of the details of this location? If there was abuse that occurred there, it wouldn't have been a group thing, but she cannot recall you cannot recall anything specific?

23 MS. III: Objection, your Honor.

24 THE COURT: What's the question?

25 MS. MENNINGER: Well, I asked her if it refreshed her

A. I don't recall this.

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recollection, she said it did not. Now I'm asking her if she made the statement, and we haven't heard her answer yet.

THE COURT: So the question is did you make the statement?


THE COURT: Okay. You may answer that.

A. No, I don't recall making these statements.

Q. Then you were asked the same question by the government in the same interview a third time; correct?


Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look at page 11, the top paragraph, the first sentence. Does that refresh your recollection about you being asked a third time in the same interview about abuse occurring in New Mexico?

A. No, it does not.

Q. Isn't it true what you told the government a third time was that you were asked about the New Mexico trips you took and if you recalled any specific abuse that occurred there, to which you answered you did not remember; correct?

Q. It didn't refresh your recollection --

THE COURT: You said isn't it true that you told the government a third time that you were asked about the New Mexico trips. I think you lost the thread.


4 Q. Isn't it true you told the government you do not remember any specific abuse that occurred in New Mexico on the trips that you took there?


6 7 Q. And yesterday you testified about an incident in New Mexico that you now specifically remember two years later.

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Today you remember it; in 2020 you did not.

10 A. I don't recall saying any of what's written here.

11 12 13 Q. I'm going to ask you about the homes that you testified you visited for Epstein in the mid 1990s, okay, between the ages of 14 and 16.

14 15 You recall in Palm Beach that you went to a pool house; correct?

16 A. That's correct.

17 18 Q. And you only went to one house for Epstein in Palm Beach ever; correct?


20 21 Q. You remember the whole house in Florida was light-colored and beachy; correct?

22 A. I think so; correct.

23 24 Q. You remember a winding staircase with pictures on the wall; correct?

25 A. Correct. 4 5 Q. And that's the description that you gave the government; correct?


7 8 Q. In New York, you described an eight-story mansion on the Upper East Side; correct?


10 Q. You started staying there when you were 14; correct?


12 13 Q. That's the only home in New York that you visited of Epstein's; correct?


15 16 Q. You stayed in some apartments where he did not live; correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 19 Q. And you stayed in this eight-story mansion beginning at the age of 14; correct?


21 Q. And you stayed on the eighth floor of this mansion, right?

22 A. I believe so.

23 Q. And Ghislaine didn't live in that mansion, right?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. You didn't see her living there; correct?

Q. You recall a massage room that was attached to the bathroom; correct?

A. That's my memory, yes.

4 5 Q. You recall a massage table being black in that home; correct?


7 8 Q. And then you remember going to New Mexico where there was a giant ranch; correct?


10 Q. An impressive, huge house, right?

11 A. Like all of them.

12 Q. What's that?

13 A. I said like all of the homes, yes.

14 15 Q. Right. And there were other guests around in New Mexico; correct?

16 A. No.

17 18 Q. Do you remember telling the government that Jeffrey's brother Mark Epstein went with you on a trip to New Mexico?

19 A. I don't recall saying that.

20 21 Q. Do you remember telling the government that Chef Adam Perry Ling went on a trip to New Mexico with you?


23 24 Q. And you don't remember a massage room in the New Mexico home; correct?

25 A. I don't recall.


Q. And you started staying there at the age of 14, right?


4 5 Q. Well, you told the government in 2019 that you thought you were the only one; correct?


7 8 Q. And you only learned otherwise, you said, when you saw the news about Mr. Epstein's arrest in 2007 or 8; correct?


10 11 Q. So none of the other participants in these orgies, I think you called them, were underage; correct?

12 A. I wouldn't know that.

13 Q. That you thought you were the only one, right?


15 16 Q. And you were never asked to go recruit other girls for Epstein; correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 19 Q. You were not asked to have sexual contact with any of Epstein's friends?

20 A. No.

21 22 Q. Epstein did introduce you to a number of people associated with the arts, right?

23 A. Not really, no.

24 25 Q. He introduced you to the of Interlochen at a cocktail party, right?

Q. In your time with Epstein, you never saw any other underage girls around him; correct?

A. I wouldn't know that, if they were.

4 Q. Well, in December of 2019, you told the government that he had introduced you to the of Interlochen at a cocktail party.

5 6 THE COURT: Having a hard time hearing you, Ms. Menninger.

7 MS. MENNINGER: I'm sorry.

8 9 10 Q. In 2019 December, you told the government that you had been introduced to the of Interlochen by Epstein at a cocktail party.


12 13 Q. If I could have you look at 3509-005, page 5, the second full paragraph. Does that refresh your recollection?

14 15 A. I remember the of admissions for Julliard. I don't remember saying the first sentence.

16 17 18 Q. Isn't it true you told the government that on one occasion the of Interlochen was there for a cocktail party, you met him through Epstein?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 21 Q. You don't remember if you did meet the of Interlochen through Epstein?

22 A. No.

23 24 Q. And you do remember meeting the of admissions for Julliard; correct?


A. I don't remember. Maybe.

4 A. No, I did not.

5 6 7 Q. You were referred to the Professional Children's School by the of Julliard -- or, excuse me, the of admissions for Julliard; correct?

8 A. I don't remember who referred.

9 Q. Mr. Epstein introduced you to Donald Trump; correct?


11 Q. He took you to Mar-a-Lago, right?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. When you were 14, you claim?


15 Q. He took you in a dark green car?


17 Q. And you met Donald Trump there; correct?


19 Q. That was before the pool house incident; correct?

20 A. I don't remember that.

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Q. Through Epstein, right?


Q. And you applied to Julliard; correct?


4 MS. MI : I object to characterizing it as a statement, your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Sustained.

6 7 8 Q. Page 3 of 001, in the second full paragraph, does that refresh your recollection that you described a period in the beginning before the pool house incident?

9 A. I don't recall saying that.

10 11 12 Q. Do you recall telling the government that Epstein took you that Epstein told you that he had famous friends that he would call and put on speaker phone?

13 A. That's correct.

14 15 Q. And you told them that he took you in a dark green car to. Mar-a-Lago to meet Donald Trump, right?


17 18 Q. And that was in the beginning before the pool house incident?

19 20 MS. Objection. Asked and answered and also misleading.

21 THE COURT: Overruled. I'll allow it.

22 23 A. I don't remember saying that and I don't remember the timeline of that.

24 25 Q. Yesterday you talked about group sexualized massages, right?

Q. If I could direct your attention to your conversation to the statement 3509-001?

4 5 Q. You talked about how those would happen almost every visit with him, which would have been every two weeks, correct?

6 7 MS. III: Objection to mischaracterizing the testimony.

8 THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.

9 A. Not correct. No.

10 Q. Your testimony yesterday --

11 THE COURT: Where am I looking?

12 13 14 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, the transcript from yesterday's testimony began on page 314 and the specific statement about frequency is at the top of 315.

15 MS. : Your Honor, may I have just a moment?

16 THE COURT: Yes. I need one too.

17 Can I get the page again, please.

18 19 20 MS. MENNINGER: Sure. Your Honor, it began -- the description of the topic was on 314, and then the specific question about frequency occurred at the top of 315.


22 MS. III: I'm sorry, your Honor. What's the question?

23 THE COURT: What's the question?

24 BY MS. MENNINGER:

25 Q. I asked, you testified yesterday that these group massages


Q. I think you called them orgies, right?


4 5 Q. In these group massages, there were other participants, correct?


7 8 Q. You distinctly remembered the names of some of these other women participants, correct?


10 Q. You told those names to the government, correct?


12 13 Q. You recalled a woman named who participated in these group sexualized massages, correct?


15 Q. She was an actual massage therapist, right?

16 A. That's what she said, yeah.

17 Q. She had blond hair?

18 A. Mmm-hmm. Yes.

19 Q. Tall and thin, right?


21 Q. Nice legs?


23 Q. Was pretty?


25 Q. Had a tan?

would happen almost every visit with him which would have been every two weeks. That was your testimony yesterday?

A. Yes, I guess, I -- yes, I said that.

4 Q. Lived in Florida?


6 Q. Married a racecar driver?


8 Q. She joined in the sexual massages, correct?


10 Q. You said she knew the routine, right?

11 A. Right.

12 13 Q. She would make out with other girls during these encounters?


15 Q. And you remember being on flights with


17 18 Q. would be someone who could corroborate your recollection about these group massages, correct?

19 MS. Objection.

20 THE COURT: Overruled.


22 23 Q. You told the government about a woman named Eva who joined in, correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. You said she joined in with right?


Q. Right?


4 Q. You said she joined in with

5 A. Joined into the group scenario, yes.

6 Q. She knew the routine?


8 Q. So she could also confirm your story, right?


10 11 Q. You talked about a third woman named , who was a participant in the abuse, correct?


13 Q. You said that was British?


15 Q. And she was nice and cool, right?


17 Q. And she was involved in the sexual contact, right?


19 20 Q. And she was in these group sexualized massages with you, correct?


22 Q. There was a fourth woman you remembered named


24 Q. was short?


A. What's the exact question joined in with

Q. Those were your words.

5 6 Q. And you claimed that was also involved in the sexual contact, correct?


8 Q. And the group massages?


10 11 Q. And then another person you remembered was named right?


13 Q. And you remembered her last name, right?


15 16 Q. And you thought she was a model who was older than you, right?


18 19 Q. And you told the government she could back up what you were talking about, right?


21 22 23 Q. You also told the agents and the prosecutors you were meeting with, you thought you could recognize these people if you saw pictures, right?

24 A. A few of them, yes.

25 Q. And you said that at your very first meeting in September

Q. You hung out with her and ?


Q. And you sometimes went out with them, right?

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of 2019, right?


Q. And between September of 2019 and today, you've never been shown pictures of , right?


MS. MENNINGER: Lack of evidence your Honor?

THE COURT: What are the grounds? One word grounds for the objection.

MS. III: Your Honor, may we approach?

(At the sidebar)

THE COURT: What are the grounds?

MS. III: Your Honor, in connection with our motions in limine, the Court granted a motion in limine from the government about efforts to put at issue particular investigative techniques of whether we're showing photographs or steps that the government is taking. That's the objection, your Honor.


MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, can I make a record about the number of objections because it's --

THE COURT: Well, the record is clear about the number of objections.


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THE COURT: Do you need the question repeated? Repeat the question.

Q. Between September of 2019 and today, have you ever been shown photographs of by the government?


Q. Of


Q.


Q. Eva?


Q.


Q. Any of the other model-types that you said you saw in these group massages?


Q. You remembered being on flights with a number of individuals, correct?


Q. You remember Prince Andrew being on a flight, right?


Q. You remember Mark Epstein, Jeffrey's brother, being on a flight?

5 6 Q. You told the government you remembered all these people being on flights with you?


8 9 Q. Were you aware of whether the flight logs reflect any flights by you with those individuals?

10 A. I have no idea, no.

11 12 Q. You also had some recollections about flying on the private plane with Epstein, right? You recall being on the plane?


14 15 Q. And you said that you were asked your weight when you were boarding the plane, correct?


17 18 Q. And you also remember this Latin American driver for Mr. Epstein driving you up to the airport, correct?


20 Q. So he could back up that story too, correct?


22 23 Q. And you remember someone from Epstein's office named Lesley who called to set up travel arrangements for you, right?


25 Q. And you recall Lesley calling your home phone in Florida,

Q. You recall Adam Perry Lang being on a flight with you?


Q. You remember Epstein's mom being on a flight with you?

right?

A. That's what I remember, yeah.

4 5 A. I don't know if it was her every time. I just remember a Lesley.

6 Q. When you were in Florida?


8 9 10 Q. Between the ages of 14 to 16. And you remember calling your house when you were age 14, 15 and 16 to make arrangements, right?

11 A. No, wasn't around then.

12 13 Q. Well, you told the government that you do recall calling your home phone in Florida, right?

14 A. No, I never said that.

15 16 Q. Let's look at 3509-001 at page 2, in the second full paragraph.

17 A. Yeah, but that's not correct.

18 19 Q. So it says that you recall calling your house phone, correct?

20 MS. M: Objection.

21 THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a moment. Sustained.

22 23 Q. Did you tell the -- you're saying that it says it, but it's not correct. Can you just tell us what's not correct?

24 MS. III: Objection, your Honor.

25 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

Q. When you were 14, 15 and 16, right?

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A. This timeline is not correct. I did not know or while living in Florida. I knew them in New York.

Q. You did not live in a house in New York, correct?


Q. You lived in an apartment, right?


Q. So you didn't have a house phone in New York?

A. I think we did have a house phone, actually. Actually, we did for sure.

Q. There was staff present at Mr. Epstein's eight-story mansion, right?


Q. And the staff included a chef, right?


Q. And a house manager?


Q. And a driver?


Q. And so all of those people saw you staying in this mansion by yourself as a 14 year old, right?


Q. You said that Epstein gave you money almost every time that you saw him, right?


Q. Hundreds of dollars at a time?

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Q. \$2- or \$300 at a time?


Q. And that happened regardless of whether or not you were in what you claim was a sexually abusive relationship at that time, right?


Q. And your brothers never mentioned anything weird about you having hundreds of dollars of cash, correct?

A. I never mentioned it to them.

Q. And your mother as well didn't know you had hundreds of dollars?

A. No. I gave it to my mother.

Q. You gave the hundreds of dollars to your mother?


Q. Every time?

A. I showed it to her every time.

Q. And Epstein only gave you gifts. He didn't give any gifts to your brothers?

A. He may have. I don't recall.

Q. Nothing major?

A. I think he gave him a computer once.

Q. Anything else?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. You don't have any photographs of yourself with Epstein,


5 6 Q. You don't have any photographs of you wearing the clothes that you claim they bought you?


8 Q. The plaid pants and the Ralph Lauren sweater, right?

9 A. That's right.

10 11 Q. You claimed that there was a photo of you that Epstein kept on his desk, and you were wearing a bathing suit, right?


13 14 Q. You don't know whether that photograph was ever found, correct?


16 17 Q. Do you have any records of when you went to the Lion King, like a program?

18 A. No, I don't have really anything from that time of my life.

19 Q. You said that Epstein paid for your acting lessons, right?


21 Q. At a particular studio?


23 Q. And you said that he paid a particular voice coach for you?


25 Q. Have you got records of any of those payments?

Q. Or Ghislaine?


5 Q. You've had a number of trial preparation sessions?

6 A. Not -- not -- what's a number?

7 Q. What's that?

8 A. What do you mean by preparations?

9 Q. Trial prep sessions?


11 Q. Where they were talking about your testifying here?


13 14 Q. And there was a mock cross-exam that you engaged in with the government, right?


16 Q. Where you practiced answering questions like we are now?

17 A. Not practicing, no.

18 Q. Did you rehearse your direct testimony?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 21 Q. You continued to travel on Mr. Epstein's dime after you escaped in 1999, correct?

22 A. That is not true.

23 24 Q. Well, you took flights on his private jet after 1999, right?

25 A. Only one.


Q. You've met with the government quite a few times in person, correct?

4 5 Q. I will have you look at Exhibit J-37 and see if this refreshes your recollection. And the J numbers are behind the green flag.

6 7 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I think it's going to make more sense for me to come back to this.

8 THE COURT: Okay.

9 10 Q. You do recall sending a photograph of yourself to Epstein after you moved to LA, right?


12 Q. That was Government Exhibit 245, right?

13 Where you wrote "Thanks for rocking my world"?

14 A. Yes. Embarrassing.

15 Q. And you wrote that when you were 19?

16 A. 19, yes.

17 18 Q. You testified yesterday that your mom made you send that to him, right?


20 Q. So your mom could clearly corroborate that, right?


22 Q. And there were no dates on those photographs, right?


24 25 Q. So it's your recollection about the age you were in those photographs, right?

Q. Do you remember taking commercial flights that he paid for?


4 5 6 Q. And you testified yesterday that Epstein just kept calling you and calling you in the 2000s until you stopped answering his phone calls, right?


8 Q. So there would be phone records of all those calls, right?


10 11 12 Q. It took you quite some time to report this to law enforcement, right? We talked about that at the beginning yesterday?


14 Q. In the meantime, you got a job on a soap opera, right?


16 Q. You received an income from that job?


18 Q. You had an agent?


20 21 Q. You had a number of family members that lived nearby in the 2000s, right?


23 24 25 Q. And once you had established yourself as an actress with income, you didn't call up the police to let them know what you claimed had happened to you, right?


Q. There's nothing on the photographs themselves?


4 A. Right.

5 Q. And charged, right?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. And so you knew the authorities were investigating

8 Mr. Epstein in 2007, 2008, right?

9 A. Right.

10 11 Q. You didn't pick up the phone then and call the people that you knew were investigating him then, correct?


13 Q. You knew how do that, right?


15 Q. You knew how to get a lawyer?


17 Q. You chose not do that?


19 Q. And you started to see some press that mentioned yourself?


21 Q. And so you did hire a lawyer, right?


23 24 Q. And a lot of the press that you saw mentioned about yourself was false, correct?

25 A. I don't remember what the exact press was.


Q. In the late 2000s, 2007, 2008, you saw on the news that

Epstein had been arrested, right?

4 MS. MENNINGER: I'm asking if she saw the press?

5 THE COURT: I'll allow it.

6 A. I don't remember reading that.

7 Q. You wanted to stop the press about you, right?


9 Q. So you hired an attorney?


11 Q. And that was around 2015?

12 A. Yes, I think so.

13 Q. You hired a litigator, a tough litigator, right?


15 Q. You paid her a lot of money?


17 Q. Quarter of a million dollars?

18 A. No.

19 20 Q. Do you recall speaking with the government in December of 2019?


22 23 Q. I'm sorry, got that date wrong. September 2 of 2021, so a few months ago?


25 Q. At that time, you said you gave this litigator a quarter of

Q. Were there allegations that you were a Yugoslavian sex slave that you saw on the internet?

MS. III: Objection to relevance, your Honor.

4 5 A. First of all, I don't have that much money to give away, and it was \$25,000. So maybe it's a typo?

6 Q. I'm going to have you look at 3509-023.

7 A. Yeah, I see it.

8 Q. In the last full paragraph in the middle of the paragraph.


10 11 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you told the government you did not know you would need a \$250,000 retainer?

12 13 A. That's not correct because I never said that. I would not be able to afford to pay anybody that much money for anything.

14 Q. Well, you paid her some amount of money?


16 Q. \$25,000?

17 A. \$25,000.

18 Q. And you did that to help her stop the media about you?

19 20 A. Stop people from harassing me and bullying me into trying to give some sort of interview or statement.

21 Q. Well, you were being approached by lawyers?


23 Q. Lawyers for , for example?


25 Q. You spoke to them?

a million dollars?

A. No, that is incorrect.

Q. Why?

4 Q. The media was wanting you to give statements, right?

5 A. Right.

6 7 Q. And you could have directed your lawyer to call the government and report this crime you're claiming now, right?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. You didn't hire her for that purpose, right?


11 Q. You could have, right?

12 A. I guess I could have, yeah.

13 14 Q. In 2019, before Epstein was arrested, you were contacted by Agent Amanda Young, right?


16 Q. She gave you a call?


18 Q. She asked to speak with you, right?


20 21 Q. And you said you were just not interested in getting involved, right?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. And then thereafter, you hired a different attorney, right?


25 Q. You hired Mr. Glassman?


Q. You were being approached by the media, right?


4 5 Q. Mr. Glassman, touts the very large verdicts that he has received on his web page, correct?

6 MS. III: Objection.

7 THE COURT: Grounds.

8 MS. III: Hearsay.

9 THE COURT: Sustained.

10 Q. Are you aware of Mr. Glassman's advertising?


12 Q. Did you ever look at his website?

13 A. No. He's a friend of a friend.

14 Q. You hired him on September 3 of 2019, correct?

15 A. I don't know the exact date, but --

16 17 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at J-14. Do you recognize that document?


19 Q. And what is that document?

20 A. Attorney-client contingent fee contract.

21 Q. That's between you and Mr. Glassman, right?


23 24 Q. If you could look at the last page, does that refresh your recollection about when you hired Mr. Glassman?

Q. Mr. Glassman is a personal injury lawyer, right?


4 Q. That was two weeks before you met with the government for the first time, right?

5 A. I don't know those dates.

6 7 8 Q. I want to look back at 3509-001, at the date. Does looking at the left-hand corner of 001 refresh your recollection about the date that you first met with the government?

9 A. It doesn't, but if that's what it says, then --

10 Q. September 19, 2019 seems about right, correct?


12 13 Q. You hired Mr. Glassman before this meeting with the government, right?


15 16 Q. Mr. Glassman was at the first meeting with the government, right?


18 Q. As well as Mr. Werksman, the second lawyer, right?

19 A. Right.

20 21 Q. And those were both personal injury lawyers that you had selected?


23 24 Q. You didn't hire a lawyer that specializes in victims' rights, correct?

25 A. I hired a lawyer based on advice from my husband's friend,

Q. When did you hire Mr. Glassman?

A. September 3, 2019.

4 5 Q. And you had Mr. Glassman and Mr. Werksman in the first meeting with the government, right?

6 A. Right.

7 MS. MENNINGER: May I have one moment, your Honor?

8 THE COURT: You may.

9 (Pause)

10 11 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, would this be a good stopping point?

12 13 THE COURT: We were having a little issue with the jurors' lunch, so not quite yet.

14 15 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. I'm just trying to find something I can do on a short notice -- a short section.

16 17 THE COURT: You can just start another section and we'll break, that's fine.

18 MS. MENNINGER: I appreciate that.


20 21 Q. In the period of time between '99 and 2019, there has been a lot of things that have happened, right?

22 A. Right.

23 24 Q. You have read the press, including stories about yourself, correct?


their friends.

Q. He's not a specialist in criminal law, for example?

A. I guess not.

4 Q. You've talked about the press about Epstein with other people?

5 A. What's that question?

6 7 Q. You've talked about the press about Epstein with other people?

8 MS. M: Objection to form.

9 Q. Well, you had discussions --

10 11 MS. MENNINGER: I'll rephrase, your Honor. Maybe that will help.

12 13 Q. You've spoken with your ex-boyfriend you were calling Matt about Epstein, right?


15 Q. And you and he watched news reports together, correct?


17 Q. And you pieced some things together, correct?

18 A. I pieced things? What's the question? Sorry.

19 20 Q. You and Matt pieced things together based on your review of press about Epstein, correct?

21 MS. III: Objection to form.

22 THE COURT: Overruled.

23 A. I don't understand what pieced together means.

24 25 Q. You talked to right? ' lawyer, Brad

Q. You've read the press about Epstein?


4 Q. You know they represent other Epstein accusers, right?


6 Q. Your lawyer has spoken to other lawyers?

7 MS. III: Objection.

8 THE COURT: I suppose you can ask if she knows that.

9 10 Q. Do you know whether your lawyer has spoken to other lawyers who represent Epstein accusers?

11 A. I wouldn't know that.

12 Q. You've talked to your family members, right?

13 A. Some of them.

14 Q. You've talked to your ex-boyfriend, Matt, right?


16 17 18 Q. And during that period of time, all of the pieces of information and conversations that you've had are part of what you now know about the Epstein case, correct?

19 MS. III: Objection.

20 THE COURT: Just a moment.

21 One word. Grounds.

22 MS. : Form. Vague and confusing.

23 24 THE COURT: Overruled. You can state the question again.

25 Q. All of the conversations that you've had and the press that


Q. You talked to Stan Pottinger?


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you've read and the people that you've talked to, all of those pieces of information go into what you know about the Epstein case as you sit here today, correct?

A. I wouldn't say it like that, no.

Q. You don't remember all of the things that you've talked about, right?

A. No, I don't remember all the things I talked about.

Q. You don't remember all the things that you read, correct?


Q. You don't know all of the websites that you've seen, right?

A. No, I try to avoid those.

Q. But you've read them enough to hire a lawyer to stop some, right?

A. No, that's based more on people calling me, harassing me, calling my husband, harassing him, calling my work, calling my friends. And I wanted these people to stop calling me and go away. It's not based on tabloids. I've been in enough online tabloids. Being an actor, you read all kinds of stuff about yourself.

Q. You're aware of the media out there about yourself, right?

A. Some of it, yeah.

Q. During your teenage years, you traveled quite frequently, correct?

A. I guess it's all relative, but yeah, I guess.

Q. You traveled back and forth to a country in northern


5 Q. With your family?


7 Q. You were 15 when you went on one of those trips?

8 A. I don't remember, but --

9 10 Q. I will have you take a look at J-6. I assume you have not seen this document before?


12 Q. Do you recognize your name on it?


14 Q. And do you see certain dates and --

15 16 MS. III: I'm sorry, your Honor, I don't believe I have J-6.

17 MS. MENNINGER: I thought you did. I'm really sorry.

18 MS. III: I'm sorry, I do. Apologies.

19 Q. You recognize your name and date of birth on this document?


21 22 23 24 Q. And does -- I realize that some of these dates are old, but does looking at this, particularly page 2 towards the bottom, refresh your recollection about trips that you may have taken outside of the country?

25 A. Do I remember these flights? Is that the question?

Europe?


Q. You did that over the holidays?

4 5 Q. Let me direct your attention to the second from the bottom one.

6 A. Okay.

7 8 Q. Do you recognize those airport codes or the dates of travel indicated there?

9 10 A. I don't know what those airport codes are. If somebody could translate them for me.

11 12 Q. Let me ask you this: In April of 1996, did you take a trip abroad?


14 Q. How old were you in April of 1996?

15 A. 15.

16 Q. And do you remember going abroad when you were 15?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q• Did you ever attend a vocal competition in Italy?

19 A. IN, yes.

20 Q. And that was in April of 1996?

21 A. I guess it was.

22 Q. Was it? I'm asking you.

23 A. I don't remember. I was 15.

24 25 Q. Okay. And then there was another trip that you took, maybe you'll recall, in June of 1997. How old were you in June of

Q• Yes, do you remember taking these trips?

A. I don't remember these in particular. These are old. I don't know.

1997?

A. 16.

4 5 A. I think I may remember what trip this was for, something having to do with a sibling.

6 Q. None of these trips involved Ghislaine Maxwell, right?


8 Q. You didn't travel abroad with her?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And Epstein as well, you didn't travel abroad with him?


12 13 Q. So, you may have taken a trip related to a sibling in June of 1997 --


15 Q. -- when you were 16?


17 Q. And then in January of 1998, how old were you?

18 A. 167.

19 20 Q. And you took a trip perhaps abroad then. Do you recall that?

21 A. January 199 -- maybe a family thing? I don't remember.

22 I'm sorry.

23 24 Q. And then the last one I'll ask about is April of 1998. Do you remember taking a trip then?

25 A. No, I don't remember what the trip was.

Q. Do you remember a trip that you took in June of 1997?

4 Q. You continued to travel throughout the 2000s abroad. Is that right?

5 A. That's right.

6 7 Q. When you were in your -- in the mid-1990s, you participated in a beauty pageant, correct?

8 A. Embarrassingly enough, so, yes.

9 Q. A Miss Teen pageant?


11 Q. The big one, right?

12 A. Mmm, fairly big.

13 Q. And it was associated with Mr. Trump, right?


15 16 Q. And that was in a state that you were in in that time frame, right?


18 Q. You were given \$2,000 by Epstein for a dress?

19 A. I don't recall that.

20 21 Q. Do you recall being devastated that Epstein only gave you \$2,000 for a dress?

22 A. No, I don't recall that.

23 Q. Or crying because he only gave you \$2,000 for a dress?

24 A. No, that's ridiculous. I wouldn't do that.

25 Q. You performed on a reality show, correct?

Q. And how old were you in April of 1998?

A. 17.

4 Q. With your ex-boyfriend, Matt?


6 Q. And you had cameras in your home, right?


8 Q. You had some conflict with your mother during that?


10 Q. And you had other friends who were also on the show?


12 Q. And the cameras followed you around, right?


14 15 Q. In that show, you talked about roughing it for you would be going to the Four Seasons, something like that?

16 17 A. Well, reality shows aren't really reality, so most of it is produced by producers.

18 Q. And you were paid for that reality show, right?


20 21 Q. In the last few decades, you have supported your family, right?

22 A. Not all of them, but a few of them, yes.

23 24 Q. You have had some of your brothers that have had to live with you?

Q. In the 2000s?

5 Q. You had your mother living with you, right?


7 Q. And she had some financial difficulties, right?


9 Q. And you needed to help her with her finances, right?


11 12 Q. I think at one point you claim that you were putting a roof over your family's head, right?

13 14 A. I don't know if I used that -- those words, but they lived in my house, yes.

15 Q. You told that to Matt?

16 A. II, well...

17 Q. Right?

18 19 A. I don't recall if those are the words I told him, but yes, they were living in my house.

20 21 22 Q. And once you hired Mr. Glassman in September of 2019, he talked to you about your decision to cooperate in the criminal case, correct?

23 MS. III: Objection.

24 THE COURT: Sustained.

25 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, he shared this with the

Q. Your sister?


Q. Has never needed financial support from you?

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government. May we have a sidebar?

THE COURT: No. If you want to try to get around privilege, you'll raise it in advance, as I've made clear.

Sustained.


Q. When you decided finally to file a civil lawsuit, that was in January of 2020, right?

A. I don't recall the exact date.

Q. And you filed that under a pseudonym?


Q. Jane, right?


Q. And you did that with the help of Mr. Glassman?


Q. And you sued Ghislaine, right?


Q. You sued Epstein's estate, correct?


Q. You also made a claim in the Virgin Islands against Epstein's estate, correct?


Q. At some point you made a demand for Ghislaine to pay you money, correct?

A. I don't know what a demand means.

Q. Well, your lawyer sent a letter demanding that she pay you

money?

4 5 Q. Do you know whether your lawyer sent Ghislaine a letter demanding money?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 8 Q. You knew at the time you had that civil complaint going, that Ghislaine was charged in this case, correct?


10 11 Q. You also participated in the Epstein Victims' Compensation Program, right?


13 14 Q. And with your lawyer's assistance, you filled out the claim form for that, right?

15 MS. III: Objection.

16 THE COURT: Sustained.

17 Q. Did you fill out the claim form?

18 A. Did I personally? No.

19 Q. Did you sign the claim form?


21 Q. Did you notarize your signature for the claim form?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 24 Q. Did you attest that everything in the claim form that you submitted was true and accurate?


MS. III: Objection to foundation.


4 A. I don't remember what's in the form.

5 6 7 Q. If I could have you look at Exhibit J-18 on page 6. And if you need to look at the last page to see your signature, just let us know.


9 Q. Do you see question 11?


11 12 Q. And it asks you: Have you filed litigation against Epstein or the Estate of Epstein, right?


14 Q. Or any related entities or individuals, right?


16 Q. You said yes?


18 Q. And you listed your civil case, correct?


20 Q. But you also said "refer to the attachment"?

21 A. Well, I didn't write this, but --

22 Q. You signed it?

23 A. I signed it, yeah.

24 25 Q. And then the next question, question 12, you were asked whether or not you'd ever been trafficked to and sexually

Q. In that claim form that you attested was accurate, you were asked whether or not you were participating in the prosecution of any case related to Epstein, right?

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abused by any individuals other than Epstein, correct?

MS. III: Your Honor, we're now reading a document that is not in evidence.


Q. Do you recall answering or telling the claims program that you were making a claim against Ms. Maxwell?


Q. And you were ultimately made an offer by the claims program, right?


Q. And you were told what that offer was?


Q. What was that initial offer?

A. \$5 million.

Q. Do you know whether your attorney went back and asked for more money?

A. I don't know that.

Q. This year you were wired the money, right, \$5 million?

A. Well, not the entirety, no.

Q. I would like to ask you to take a look at Exhibit J-40. Do you recognize this document?


Q. And do you recognize the date of the document?


Q. Do you recognize your name on the document?


4 5 6 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, at this time I would move for the admission of this under seal because it has identifying information as Exhibit J-40.

7 8 MS. III: Your Honor, may we take up this issue during the lunch break? We object.

9 10 11 12 13 THE COURT: Okay. We'll break for lunch, members of the jury. We almost have all your lunches in hand. I'm hoping by the time you get back, everything will be set. So we'll break about 45 minutes for lunch. Enjoy your lunch. Thank you.

14 (Jurors not present)

15 16 THE COURT: Everyone may be seated. Can I have J-40 back up so we can discuss?

17 Grounds.

18 MS. III: Thank you, your Honor.

19 20 21 We have a 401 and 403 objection to this document. This is a multipage document containing legal terms relating to a civil settlement.

22 23 24 To the extent the defense intends to impeach this witness about the fact that she settled a claim and received a sum of money, that's already in the record.

25 This document contains additional and, frankly,

Q. And on the last page, do you recognize your signature?


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complicated legal terms about a settlement agreement between this witness and an estate that's not a party to this case. We think this document is confusing to the jury and don't understand any potential impeachment relevance of the particular terms of the settlement.

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, it's a representative - it's a documentary representative of the amount of money that she received in the settlement. I don't know what's confusing about that. I am not going to spend a lot of time arguing some legal clauses or anything like that, but I think our jury is sophisticated enough to know what a settlement agreement looks like and the amount of money that she received. She's contesting that that's the amount of money she received, but I don't think that precluding us from putting in a document because it has legal language in it is an appropriate --

THE COURT: That's the 403 argument, that it's legal language?


THE COURT: The government puts in cooperation agreements all the time. Those are not the models of clarity.

true -- MS. III: Of course, your Honor, and that's certainly

it? THE COURT: This is comparable legal language, isn't

MS. III: No, your Honor. I think the difference

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here, and it's an important one is, as a proponent of the evidence, the defense has the burden of establishing its relevance. At this point what they've articulated is that they want the exact figure that was disbursed, which this witness has already testified to and --

THE COURT: It's just a document of that agreement. I'm going to overrule this objection.

Anything else?

MS. III: Your Honor, in our view, this sort of opens the door to a lot of legal issues related to the settlement funds that are not proper before the jury. It's cumulative of the testimony about this particular figure and would be confusing about its particular terms.

THE COURT: Yes, that's what I just overruled.

MS. III: Understood, your Honor.

THE COURT: Anything else to take up? We'll break for lunch for 45 minutes. Thank you.

And, Ms. Menninger, if you have an argument that you're going to pierce attorney-client privilege --

MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. Can we take that up right after lunch in a sidebar? I believe I have grounds.

THE COURT: You have to speak into the microphone. It should have been briefed. I think that would be clear, but, yes, I'll meet with you in 40 minutes. You'll confer in advance.

 (Luncheon recess)

THE COURT: As to what the contention is, what the proffer is, and then I'll hear from you. 40 minutes.

# AFTERNOON SESSION

1:50 P.M.

THE COURT: All right. Matters to take up?


May I approach?

THE COURT: Microphone.

MS. MENNINGER: I have one exhibit that relates to the testimony I'd like to --


MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor --

THE COURT: Would you come to the --

, yes.

THE COURT: Take your mask off, if you'd like.

MS. MENNINGER: As with some of the evidence, your Honor, I understand that, when questioned, the witness might deny knowledge about this communication to the government by her attorney, but I would like to ask her if she has knowledge of this communication.

THE COURT: What exact question would you ask?

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I would ask her did she have a communication from her attorney about why she should cooperate and testify at this criminal trial.

THE COURT: Did she have a communication from her attorney about why she should cooperate and testify at this trial.

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MS. MENNINGER: I mean, I could start with the question of does she know whether her attorney shared that with someone else, which is the waiver question, in my mind, anyway. But the ultimate question I would like to get to is her attorney told her that.

THE COURT: Right. So you want to get to a communication between attorney and client. It's privileged, right? And you're arguing that it's been waived or what are you arguing?

MS. MENNINGER: Yes, I'm arguing that it's been waived because it was communicated to the government.

THE COURT: Ms. III.


I think that question is a few moves down the chessboard.

THE COURT: Could you pull up the microphone, please.


I think there would be no issue with a question about this witness's understanding of whether the outcome of this case would help in a civil case or whether at the time she decided to cooperate with the government and be interviewed she thought that would help her get money in a civil case. That would be just a question about whether she had bias and motive; that wouldn't go to issues of attorney-client privilege about her general understanding. I think the question becomes, if

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she says no, if a privileged communication with her attorney would be a proper basis for impeachment.

On that score, if we get to that scenario, this witness's counsel is in the courtroom. I've conferred with him about the privilege issue. My understanding is his view is this is privileged and he'd like to confer with his client about that. But I think he'd like to be heard on the question of privilege and waiver. It's not the government's privilege to hold or waive or speak to; and so we'd ask for him to be heard on that question.

THE COURT: Well, I guess it still depends what we're talking about. What is the "this" in that sentence?

MS. It sounds like, your Honor, if defense counsel plans to impeach this witness about bias by offering a statement of her attorney to the government, that that implicates a privilege question. If separately defense counsel plans to ask this witness just generally --

THE COURT: The statement from the attorney to the government is not privileged. This is not privileged. The question goes to her communication with her attorney, that's where the privilege is.

MS. Exactly, your Honor.

THE COURT: I'm not yet seeing the connection between what I -- I don't know what the basis of admissibility would be with respect to this email that's been handed up, which is a

nonprivileged communication, right, between the attorney and the witness's attorney and the government.

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MS. III: Yes, your Honor. That is my note to file about a conversation with Mr. Glassman. In our view, my notes about a conversation with someone who's not this witness can't be an exhibit at the trial. There are separate questions about her conversations with her attorneys that implicates other privilege issues.

THE COURT: You don't have any objection to Ms. Menninger asking the witness if she has any awareness of her participation in this criminal proceeding impacting -- what is the underlying question? Let me just get the underlying question before we get -- Ms. Menninger.

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, the underlying question is she expected to get a higher payout in her civil case if she testified in and cooperated in this criminal case. That's the ultimate underlying issue.

THE COURT: Did she have any basis to believe that by testifying in this criminal case, it would aid the payment she would get in the -- with respect to the fund or the civil case?

MS. MENNINGER: Well, they ultimately became as one. But at the time her initial advice from Mr. Glassman came in, there was not a victims' compensation fund. That arose during the course of her civil case. And so --

THE COURT: And the line you're interested in is that

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he mentioned he told her it would help her case?

MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. Because prior to that line, he's disclosing that he discussed whether cooperating with the case and then ultimately gets to the question of testifying in the case, he says, were the morally right thing to do. And they had discussed how testifying at trial was the right thing to do. He also mentioned that he had told her it would help her case. It is slightly ambiguous. I don't know if it refers back to the entirety of the things said before it, but that's what the email or the note says.

THE COURT: Okay. So you want to ask her if she had any basis to conclude that her participation as a witness here would help her civil litigation recovery prospects.

MS. MENNINGER: Right, your Honor. If it were a cooperation agreement and a witness had cooperated and someone had promised that they would get a lesser sentence if they cooperated, I can see that also being admissible. So maybe just the --

THE COURT: The attorney's advice to the client about whether they should take a plea and what assistance that might get them and all of that obviously is privileged.

MS. MENNINGER: It is, until you disclose it to the government. I totally agree with that, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. So then the question is if she answers yes to that question, I had some reason to believe that

it would -- it might have some impact -- my participating would have some impact on the civil litigation, do you have additional questions?

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MS. MENNINGER: May I confer, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.


MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I suppose that there might be additional question -- you know that your lawyer told the government that.

THE COURT: So however she answers that, I suppose you want to ask, Do you know that your lawyer told the government that?


THE COURT: Do you have an objection to the "Do you know that your lawyer told the government that"?

MS. III: I'm sorry, your Honor. I'm trying to follow the logic of trying to impeach a witness by her knowledge of an attorney's statement to the government about a client's intention. I don't think that tracks the logic of impeachment by bias or by a prior inconsistent statement. I'm not sure how that establishes impeachment under the rule.

THE COURT: The fact that she knows her lawyer told the government that.

MS. III: Your Honor, that appears to be an end-run around getting in her conversations with her attorney. Because

the question is, Are you aware that your attorney made a statement to the government about his conversation with you about your expected outcome in the case.

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THE COURT: Well, okay. At the first step, you agree they can ask if she had any basis to believe that her participation as a witness here would have any impact on her potential compensation in civil litigation. You don't object to that question?

MS. M: No, your Honor, no objection.

THE COURT: So then we have what if she says yes and what if she says no. So if she says yes, their follow-up question is, Are you aware that your attorney told the government that?

I think I agree with you. I don't know what the relevance of that is. And it is an attorney-client communication.

What's the relevance of whether she knows her attorney told the government that?

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I think it gets into her expectations that she -- that the government knows that she knows. And so at that point she's testifying with an expectation that -- you know, if the government doesn't is unaware of her attorney's advice, then it's just a secret between her and her attorney. But if the government who is calling her to testify is aware of her plan, intent to get more

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money by testifying in the criminal case, that can affect, you know, whether or not it's an appropriate -- you know, whether the witness has an expectation that is somewhat colored by the government's plan or putting them on the stand, you know, knowing that. It's an issue of whether the witness is coming and testifying knowing that the person who's calling them to the stand is aware of this whole plan to get more money from the civil case by testifying here.

THE COURT: What does that tell us at all about her motivation? The two pieces aren't linking up. There's does she have in her mind that testifying might help her in the civil case. The answer to that is yes. I don't see -- it seems to me it's potentially -- it's attorney-client privilege issues because it's about what her attorney communicated to her. And it's hard to see any additional relevance that comes from whether the fact -- whether the government knew -- whether she knew that the government knew that she believed that -- or testifying would help her civil case, because it doesn't link up to the benefit part.

So I think the first question would be fine. If the answer is yes, my inclination is not to allow the second question on both privilege, 401/403 grounds. So then the question is if the answer is no, then what do you propose?

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, as with some of the other issues in this case, if she says no, I think that there is

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evidence that could be put on extrinsically, specifically, her attorney's testimony.

THE COURT: So you want to then call her attorney and ask her attorney if he told her, advised her that if she participated in this case, she would -- it would help her in the civil case.

MS. MENNINGER: Right. Because that is the only portion that was waived. That's what he -- whatever he communicated to the government is what was waived. I don't think he's waived -- I'm not arguing for subject matter waiver, for example.

THE COURT: So, first of all, as I've said before, you have to brief that. This is not enough. I haven't looked at any law on that question. You've put none before me. I made very clear you'd have to brief it. So we're not doing that today.

MS. MENNINGER: No, I understand, your Honor.

THE COURT: Ms. III, what's your response to the waiver question?

MS. Your Honor, having not had an opportunity to research it or consider it or confer with Mr. Glassman, who - it's not my privilege to hold, so I can't speak to its waiver without researching the issue and conferring with Mr. Glassman.

THE COURT: The government not infrequently objects to privilege grounds to questions during trial. So the government

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certainly has a position, I'm sure.


I would just want to make sure I was conferring with her counsel about that issue and being mindful.

Broadly speaking, your Honor, to the extent this evidence is offered for the purpose of impeaching the credibility of the prosecutors in this case, which is what I think what Ms. Menninger was suggesting, I think that would be entirely improper.

THE COURT: I think that's, in part, like the mysterious implication of the second question that I said I wouldn't allow.


THE COURT: Because it just doesn't match up to anything in motivating her.

So we know where the branch of the tree ends. If the question is yes, that's the end of it. If the question is no, then it sounds like we're done with this witness with that question. And then you're going to brief calling her lawyer only on the question of whether he told the government that her participating -- testifying would help her civil case.

MS. MENNINGER: He told her that. No, he told Jane that.


MS. MENNINGER: Yes. And, your Honor, that would be

4 THE COURT: It would be waiver argument. You're going Lo brief waiver as to that on the basis that he told that to the government.

5 6 7 8 MS. MENNINGER: Exactly. The waiver was the telling to the government. The question for him on the stand would be what he told his client. But the briefing would be on the waiver question.

9 10 11 THE COURT: Well, right. But whether he waived - whether the privilege -- it's the client's to waive, I think. That will be part of the briefing, I suppose.

12 13 Okay. But if the answer is no, you don't have anything further for this witness?

14 MS. MENNINGER: I understand, your Honor.

15 THE COURT: That was a question.

16 17 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, that's right. I understood your Honor to say there is no other question, so I --

18 19 THE COURT: Well, no, it was a question. If she says no, do you have other questions for her?

20 MS. MENNINGER: On this topic, no.

21 On other topics, yes.

22 THE COURT: Yes, of course.

23 MS. MENNINGER: Okay.

24 THE COURT: I think Ms. III had something.

25 MS. III: Yes, your Honor.

something to -- I mean would be --

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Just to facilitate clarity with respect to the threshold question here about the witness, about her understanding if the question is phrased as her understanding about testifying at trial today and the effect of a civil case, I think the answer to that question has to be no because there is no civil case, there is no pending claim, it's all been resolved.

And so I just wanted to clarify whether the question is at the time she started meeting with the government was that her understanding, while the case was active, or whether the question will be about her testimony here at trial.

Jane has testified on direct that her understanding is she has no financial stake in the outcome of this case. The civil matter is resolved and the verdict in this case won't affect what she's received from those settlements. And so I just wanted to clarify in terms of how that question is phrased and what we're getting at about the issue about testifying at trial or her initial decision to cooperate with the government.

THE COURT: Fair enough.

MS. MENNINGER: That's fair.

In the paragraph itself it refers to cooperating with the case and it refers to testifying. So I think any reason to believe either one of those --

THE COURT: Can you just give us the specific question.

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MS. MENNINGER: Do you have any basis to believe - any reason to believe that your cooperation would help with this case, would help you with your civil case, that's one question.

The other is do you have any reason --

THE COURT: I'm sorry. I don't think that clarifies -- I think it's unclarifying on two points that Ms. III has raised.


THE COURT: One, cooperating in this case, meaning by testifying or more broadly. And two, since she no longer has a pending civil case, I think she'd probably be left wondering what you're referring to.

Can you clarify the question -- I think what you're asking is at any point during your -- at any point in your cooperation with the government -- "cooperation" is loaded because it's not like there's a cooperation agreement or something. But for lack of a better term, cooperating with the government with respect to this criminal case, did you ever have an understanding that it might benefit you in what was then a pending civil litigation?

Ms. III, is that getting at what you're suggesting?

MS. III: Yes, your Honor. I just wanted to make sure it was clear for the witness.


4 5 6 MS. MENNINGER: It is. I believe that he also communicated that testifying would benefit her in the criminal case.

7 THE COURT: Okay.

8 9 MS. MENNINGER: And so I'm not privy to whether, you know, at what point in time --

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 THE COURT: How about did you ever have an understanding that any cooperation with the government, including testifying in this trial, would aid you in any way in your efforts to recover in the then-pending civil litigation? Does that get at it, Ms. Menninger? I'm not disputing that you should ask the question. I agree with Ms. III there's points for confusion, so let's just --

17 MS. MENNINGER: I think it does, your Honor.

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I would have to kind of -- I would like to just write out the question so I understand. But I do think, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, because the civil litigation morphed into the victims' comp fund, there may be a similar question with respect to the comp fund. But I think I can draft this language and we could -- I can tell your Honor what it is in just a minute.


MS. III: Thank you.

THE COURT: Ms. Menninger, is that getting at what you are suggesting?

4 5 6 7 MS. III: Your Honor, I'm not quite sure about the timing for the length of cross, but I did want to just remind the Court that the next witness raises the prior consistent statements issues we discussed at the conclusion of the Court day yesterday.

8 THE COURT: I'm sorry, that what?

9 10 11 MS. III: That the next witness we anticipate calling would be the witness identified as Matt. And so just wanted to tee up any issues relating to prior consistent statements.

12 13 14 15 16 THE COURT: I think where we left it was that, as Ms. Sternheim said, we'll evaluate when you seek to introduce a prior consistent statement whether, in fact, it's consistent and whether they have attacked the veracity of that and, if not, you won't object.

17 MS. STERNHEIM: Right.

18 THE COURT: And if they do object, I'll decide.

19 MS. III: Yes, your Honor.

20 I just wanted to clear that in advance.

21 THE COURT: Thank you.

22 Okay. What do you have, Ms. Menninger?

23 24 25 MS. MENNINGER: Under the authority of Rule 611(c), I have redrafted it into a leading question, if that's permissible, your Honor. And what I would ask is --

(Pause)

THE COURT: What else do we need to take up?

4 5 6 7 -- you knew that cooperating with the government, including testifying, would benefit you in your civil litigation against the Estate of Epstein and Ms. Maxwell? And then the same question with respect to the victims' compensation fund.

8 9 10 THE COURT: I'll never win this argument with a lawyer, but I always think it's a better question just to ask them did you know. But you do you.

11 Okay. Any objection to that question?

12 MS. III: No, your Honor.

13 14 THE COURT: And the same formed question with respect to the victim compensation fund?

15 MS. III: Yes, your Honor.

16 THE COURT: Okay. Good.

17 Anything else we can take up? And if not

18 19 20 MS. III: Your Honor, if possible, it would be helpful to have a sense of timing for the duration of cross for timing of next witnesses.

21 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Menninger?

22 23 24 You took your foot off the gas for about the last half an hour there. Was that because you were looking forward to have some time during lunch or --

25 MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. I have low blood

THE COURT: It's cross, so --

MS. MENNINGER: Right. Why not?

4 THE COURT: Okay. And then, Ms. III, do you anticipate substantial redirect?

5 6 MS. III: I do anticipate redirect, but I don't anticipate it being lengthy.

7 THE COURT: Okay. We have a plan.

8 I think we can get the jury.

9 10 And we can bring the witness back up please. (Witness present)

11 (Jury present)

12 13 14 THE COURT: Thank you for your patience, members of the jury. I hope you had a nice lunch. And we will continue with the cross-examination of Witness Jane.

15 Jane, I remind you you are under oath.

16

17 II. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.

18 JANE, resumed.


20 21 22 23 24 Q. I want to go back to something I needed to skip earlier. I was asking you about whether or not you had traveled on Jeffrey Epstein's expense commercially after you moved to Los Angeles. And I started to show you Exhibit J-37, so I'd like to do that and go to page 13, about three-quarters of the way down.

25 See if you recognize your name.

sugar. Sorry. I did revive myself with a Diet Coke.

Your Honor, I think I would estimate about 45 minutes.

4 Q. And the amount?

5 A. \$343.

6 7 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you were -- a trip was paid for you in April of 2000 for \$343?

8 A. No, it doesn't.

9 10 Q. Do you think that looking at other pages of your travel would refresh your recollection?

11 MS. III: Objection.

12 13 MS. MENNINGER: If the answer is no, I'm planning on moving on, your Honor. I can show other ones.

14 15 THE COURT: Is there anything that would refresh your recollection?

16 THE WITNESS: No.

17 18 19 20 Q. We were talking a little bit earlier about your decision to testify in this case and cooperate with this case. You met with the government, I think we established, ten or more times over the last couple of years. Is that fair?

21 A. Something like that.

22 23 Q. And in each of those meetings, you had your attorney with you or the vast majority of those meetings?


25 Q. Your attorneys are Mr. Glassman and Mr. Werksman, right?


Q. And the date associated with your name?

A. 4/17/2000.

4 5 6 Q. At any point during your cooperation with the government, including testifying, you knew that your cooperation with the government, including testifying, would benefit you in your civil litigation against the Epstein estate and Ms. Maxwell; correct?

7 A. No, I don't know that.

8 9 10 Q• You knew that cooperation with the government, including testifying, would benefit you in your claim for the victims' compensation fund; correct?

11 A. No, I don't know that.

12 13 14 Q. Yesterday, you testified a bit about your inability to speak with your mother about what happened you say happened between you and Epstein; correct?


16 17 Q. You testified that you and your mother did not have that kind of relationship, right?

18 A. That's right.

19 20 Q. You testified that you were raised in a household where you would be in trouble if you said something, right?

21 A. Said something about what? Can you clarify?

22 Q. Something personal.

23 A. Something, yeah, that personal, yes.

24 25 Q. And the effect on you is you felt you could not tell your mother about Epstein, right?

A. Mr. Glassman.


5 Q. Where you got in trouble --


7 8 Q. -- for telling the guidance counsellor that your mother was unavailable and unsupportive, right?


10 11 12 Q. So when you were in high school and you were mine, you didn't feel like your mother would get your back if you told her about Epstein's misconduct, right?


14 15 Q. And your mother would not want you to report that to others, right?


17 18 19 Q. I want to ask you about another incident that happened when you were at the Palm Beach School of the Arts. Do you remember a time when you claim a teacher pulled your hair?

20 A. Yeah.

21 22 Q. You recall telling your mother about the teacher pulling your hair?


24 Q. You recall your mother hiring a lawyer for you?

25 A. I don't know that.


Q. You told the jury about an incident with your guidance counsellor, right?

4 5 Q. I'd like to show you a couple of exhibits. They've been marked for identification purposes as J-7 and J-9.

6 7 8 9 I'd like to show you what's been marked for identification purposes, this J-7, second page. Does that refresh your recollection that you sued your teacher for pulling your hair on one occasion?

10 A. No, I had no idea my mother did this.

11 Q. I'm going to show you Exhibit J-10 -- I apologize, J-9.

12 13 14 15 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, we have the original of this document present in the courtroom. This one is redacted for the name, but, if it's necessary, may I approach the witness?

16 THE COURT: Show it to the government.

17 Ms. Menninger.

18 19 20 21 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, what we have is an original of a document that was certified. It's been marked those two pieces have been marked J-8 and J-9. But they are combined as originals from the Court; it is one document.

22 THE COURT: Okay.

23 24 MS. MENNINGER: So I wanted the record to be clear what I would be showing the witness.

25 THE COURT: You're showing her a combination of J-8

Q. You recall you and your mother filing a lawsuit against your teacher?

A. I didn't know that.

and J-9.

4 MS. III: No objection, your Honor.

5 THE WITNESS: Okay.

6 BY MS. MENNINGER:

7 8 9 Q. Does looking at that document refresh your recollection about a lawsuit that you and your mother filed against your teacher?

10 A. No, I literally had no idea she did this.

11 Q. You recognize the name of the teacher --


13 14 Q. -- as the same person who was on your Interlochen application we looked at earlier; correct?


16 17 MS. III: Objection, your Honor. We're now testifying about documents not in evidence.

18 THE COURT: That's true.

19 20 21 I'll allow that question and then you're not going to do more. You asked if it refreshed her recollection. The answer is clearly -- is no. She's answered the same way.

22 So let's go.

23 24 25 MS. MENNINGER: I'm a little unclear, your Honor. And I don't know if we need a sidebar, because there are two other names that -- without my saying them out loud to ask her if she

MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor, that are unredacted.

THE COURT: Yes. Without objection, Ms. III?

4 5 6 MS. MENNINGER: If I could -- I'll try to do it without naming the names because I don't know if that's a problem.

7 THE COURT: Right.

8 9 10 MS. MENNINGER: But on J-7, on the second page, they are in the first paragraph. And I'm just going to direct the witness to that line so that we can see the names.

11 BY MS. MENNINGER:

12 13 Q. Do you recognize the names of the persons in that first paragraph?

14 15 A. I remember my teacher, I remember the principal. I don't remember the guidance counsellor.

16 17 Q. And do you know whether you and your mother sued the principal of your high school?

18 19 A. No, I don't. And we're friends on Facebook, so I had no idea that we even had an issue.

20 21 22 23 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, at this time I would offer into evidence the originals of the document that is a combined document of Exhibits J-8 and J-9. I think the Court can take judicial notice. They are certified copies.

24 THE COURT: You're moving J-8 and J-9?

25 MS. MENNINGER: Well, in the combined original exhibit

remembers who those persons are.

THE COURT: Well, so you want to point her somewhere in the document and say, Do you recognize a name?

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would be the court exhibit, your Honor.


MS. III: I object, your Honor, both on relevance and foundation grounds.

THE COURT: I'll take a look at the document and then we'll move on.


THE COURT: Can I have the witness's copy?

Go ahead.

MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.


Q. You consider yourself an actor?


Q. An actor plays the role of a fictional character --


Q. -- for a living?


Q. An actor endeavors to effectively communicate the character they are playing to an audience?


Q. Using their voice, body, actions, right?


Q. An actor takes lines borrowed from a writer and uses those lines to convincingly portray someone else in front of an audience; correct?

4 Q. Since middle school?


6 Q. You performed numerous times as a teenager?

7 A. More singing than acting, but yes.

8 Q. You traveled away from school to perform?


10 Q. You performed around the state?


12 Q. You competed internationally?

13 A. This was all singing though, but yes.

14 Q. What?

15 A. This was all singing, but yes.

16 Q. You performed at a number of different venues?


18 Q. You received coverage in the local newspapers; correct?


20 21 Q. Before you began your senior year of high school, you had a professional agent?

22 A. Somewhere in the senior year, yes.

23 Q. Before your senior year.

24 A. I don't recall if it was before or during.

25 MS. MENNINGER: If we could show the witness


Q. Been an actor for a very long time?


4 5 MS. MENNINGER: Not yet, your Honor. I was just going to use it to refresh. I believe there's a witness coming today.

6 Q. Do you recognize that document?


8 Q. You do?


10 Q. And what is it?

11 12 13 A. Well, I actually don't can you go back to the first page? I recognize that I wrote this. I don't know what the document is.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. Okay. Yes.

16 Q. And you see the date on there?


18 Q. And that was before you were a senior?


20 21 Q. And then if you go to page 4, you listed your agent; correct?

22 23 A. Actually, that was a manager, that's why it was I didn't remember. I had a manager, not an agent.

24 Q. But you got an agent in your senior year?


Government Exhibit 761 at page 4.

THE COURT: It's been admitted?

4 Q. All right. And you moved to New York for the purpose of going to that high school here; correct?

5 6 A. Not to go to that high school. The high school wasn't a performing arts school; it just was a private school.

7 Q. Professional Children's School?

8 9 10 11 A. Yes. It was for kids who were seeking professions in entertainment professions. And if they booked a job, then the school would work with them of sending them homework, but we didn't do any arts in that school.

12 Q. I see. Thank you for that clarification.

13 And you did have work in your senior year; correct?

14 A. I did not, actually, not till after I graduated.

15 16 17 Q. Okay. You don't remember any school notes in which they commented that you had been missing a lot of school because of your work in your first quarter at that school?

18 19 A. They might have written those notes that I was working, but I was not working.

20 Q. That you were working, but you weren't?

21 A. No, I was skipping school.

22 23 Q. Later in your -- after your senior year, you got this job in Los Angeles, right?


25 Q. And you moved to Los Angeles to work on the soap opera?

Q. You got a manager and an agent by your senior year?


4 Q. Twenty-something years on that show.

5 6 A soap opera is characterized by tangled interpersonal situations, fair enough?

7 A. It's a very eloquent way to put it, I guess.

8 9 Q. And melodramatic are sentimental treatment of those interpersonal situations, right?

10 A. Hopefully, not melodramatic, just dramatic.

11 12 Q. Your character has been involved in a number of different plot lines over those 20-something years, fair?

13 A. Naturally, yes.

14 Q. You've played a protective mom?


16 Q. You've been bullied?


18 Q. You've battled cancer?


20 Q. You've played a car crash victim?

21 A. I forgot about that one, but yes.

22 Q. Mental health issues?


24 Q. You've been stalked by serial killers?

Q. And you recently commemorated 20 --

A. -- something years, yes.


5 Q. You took down a Mexican drug cartel?


7 8 Q. Essentially, there's no melodramatic role that you haven't played?

9 10 A. If you want to call it melodramatic. I just say dramatic, but yeah.

11 Q. It involves a significant amount of drama; correct?


13 Q. You're able to cry on command?

14 A. No, not always. It's not really how it works.

15 Q. You express pain through your characters?

16 A. Yeah, of course.

17 Q. Vulnerability?


19 Q. The job you've trained for for a long time, right?


21 22 Q. You've been hired to work on other TV shows and series, right?


24 Q. A feature-length movie?


Q. You played a prostitute?

A. Not my favorite storyline.

Q. You ran a restaurant?

4 A. Unfortunately, yes.

5 Q. Which was not real?

6 A. No, it's not real.

7 Q. Your accusations in this case depend significantly on

8 you -- your memory that you were 14 when you met Epstein;

9 correct?


11 Q. You repeated it a number of times on the stand, right?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. Well, actually, when you first met with the government, you

14 told them that you were 13 when you met Epstein, right?

15 16 17 A. No, I said I might have been 13 going on 14; because my birthday is in August, and I believe I met them earlier in the summer. So it was just a small technicality, I guess.

18 19 20 Q. Well, in your civil complaint in the first paragraph, you said it all started in 1994, when 13-year-old Jane met Epstein and Maxwell; correct?

21 A. Correct. I was 13 in June and July.

22 Q. You didn't say "13, going on 14."

23 A. I don't know. I don't know.

24 Q. Okay. Do you want to take a look at 3509-007, paragraph 1.

25 A. Okay.

Q. Christmas specials, a wide range, right?

A. No Christmas special yet, I don't think, but yeah.

Q. You had a reality show we talked about a little while ago?


5 6 Q. And you told the government 13, but later they refreshed your memory that maybe you were 14, right?

7 8 A. No, I always from the beginning said 13, but I turned 14 that summer.

9 10 Q. Okay. I'll have you take a look at 3509-008, page 11. And looking at that, do you recall the government asking you --

11 THE COURT: Where?

12 13 MS. MENNINGER: I apologize. The second from the - second full paragraph from the bottom up.

14 15 Q. Does that refresh your recollection about a conversation you had with the government?

16 17 18 A. No, because I didn't write any of this. The second half of that makes sense, which is I was probably 13. And it says here that I turned 14 that summer.

19 20 Q. So you were not asked if it was possible that you met Epstein after you turned 14?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 23 Q. But I understand now you're saying you believe you were 14 because it was later in the summer, right?

24 A. What was later in the summer?

25 Q. When you met Epstein.

Q. And there you just said you were 13, right?

A. It says there that I'm 13, yeah.

Q. And that was what was filed by your attorney in court?

4 Q. And then we talked about The Lion King, where you thought

5 you were 14 when you saw the Broadway show, but then realized

6 you were not; correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. It actually came out when you were 17; correct?


10 Q. Now, you recall meeting Mike Wallace of 60 Minutes fame in

11 New York, right?


13 Q. And you believed that you were 15 when you met him?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. You met him with Epstein, I should clarify, right?


17 Q. And your first meeting with the government -- I'll have you

18 look at 3509-001 on page 5 in the middle of the page.

19 A. I see it.

20 Q. And you told the government about meeting Mike Wallace?


22 Q. And that was Mike Wallace's 80th birthday party; correct?

23 A. I think so.

24 Q. And you came in and said happy birthday to Mr. Wallace;

25 correct?

A. No, I said it was earlier in the summer.

Q. Okay. So you thought you met him earlier in the summer?


A. I sang Happy Birthday, yes.

4 5 A. I'm not sure. That's why it says approximately. I couldn't remember, and I don't know how old Mike Wallace was when --

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. -- is now or he's passed away.

8 Q. He has passed away.

9 A. Passed away.

10 11 Q. You recall it being his 80th birthday party though; correct?


13 14 Q. Okay. And you don't know what his birthday is, I think you just said; correct?

15 A. No, I don't know.

16 17 18 Q. If I can have you take a look at J-33, on the right side. Do you have any reason to believe that that birthday is incorrect?

19 MS. III: Objection.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 Q. Does it refresh your recollection?

22 MS. : Objection.

23 THE COURT: Sustained. No basis for refreshing.

24 25 Q. It's true that Mike Wallace's birthday party, 80th birthday party, was in May of 1998; correct?

Q. And that's when you were 15?

4 5 Q. You might have been 15 or it might have been some other date, right?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. You moved to New York in or around 1998, right?


9 Q. And you went to your senior year here from '98 to '99?


11 12 Q. What you put in your civil complaint is that you moved to New York in 1996 to go to school here; correct?

13 A. I don't remember saying that.

14 15 16 Q. Let's go back to 3509-007, paragraph 20. And in your civil complaint, you alleged that you moved to New York in 1996 when you were 16; correct?

17 18 A. No, I don't think I said that, because I didn't move to New York then.

19 Q. Do you want to look at the first page of this?

20 A. No, I -- I know. I know what it is.

21 Q. You know your lawyer signed it?


23 24 Q. The lawyer that you met with the government with multiple times, right?

A. i don't remember.

MS. MENNINGER: If I could have one moment, your Honor.

4 THE COURT: You may. (Counsel conferred)

5 BY MS. MENNINGER:

6 Q. In this civil case -- just a moment.

7 8 In your civil case, you were given something called interrogatories. Do you know what those are?

9 A. No.

10 11 Q. They are questions for you to answer under oath. Does that ring a bell?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you recall answering any questions under oath?


15 16 Q. Do you know what your lawyer put down as your answers under oath to any particular questions?


18 19 20 Q. I'm going to show you a document that we have marked as J-15. I have one that's redacted, but if you would like to see the entire document, just let us know. We have that available.

21 Do you recognize the caption on this case?


23 Q. Is this your lawsuit that you filed?


25 Q. And this is signed by your attorney in June of 2020;

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A. I don't see a date.

Q. On the last page. Sorry. I forgot you didn't have --


Q. And in June of 2020, you answered, through your attorney, interrogatories, right?


Q. And interrogatory number nine, if I could have you turn to that, on page 4, asked you to identify all persons other than decedent, Mr. Epstein, who have ever committed or attempted to commit sexual misconduct or offenses against or otherwise concerning you, including, without limitation, any unwelcome behavior of a sexual nature, sexual abuse, sexual assault, threats or intimidation of a sexual nature or sexual exploitation, regardless of whether the misconduct or offenses involved physical touching, and you responded none. Correct?


THE COURT: Are you moving this?

MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor, this interrogatory.

MS. III: Your Honor, I think the record is that this witness doesn't recognize it, doesn't know anything about it, and so for that reason we'd object.

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, it's a legally binding document.

THE COURT: Can I see the whole document?

4 5 MS. III: Your Honor, it's about relevance and personal knowledge. She's being asked about

6 THE COURT: Yes, I understand.

7 MS. III: Thank you.

8 THE COURT: Overruled.

9 J-15 is admitted.

10 (Defendant's Exhibit J-15 received in evidence)

11 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you. No further questions.

12 (Continued on next page)

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THE COURT: Are you making an authentication objection?

4 5 (Defendant's Exhibits J-8 and J-9 received in evidence)

6 THE COURT: Redirect.


8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

9 BY MS. III:

10 11 Q. Since we were just talking about Defendant's Exhibits J-15, i just want to be clear, do you recognize this document?

12 13 A. I don't have a document in front of me. Which one, this last one?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you write this?


18 MS. M: Your Honor, may I proceed?

19 THE COURT: Yes.

20 MS. M: Thank you.

21 22 23 Q. Jane, you were asked questions on cross-examination about your meetings with the government. Do you remember being asked about that?


25 Q. And you were asked about your meetings with me. Do you

THE COURT: Let me just ask about J-8, the combined J-8 and J-9. I'll overrule the objection, and it's admitted.

MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.

4 5 6 Q. And you were asked about whether in your meetings with the government you were asked about the questions that I was going to ask you on direct examination. Do you remember being asked about that?


8 9 Q. Did I or any other prosecutor ever tell you what to say on the witness stand at this trial?


11 Q. What did we tell you to do?

12 A. Just tell the truth.

13 Q. Has anyone told you what to say at this trial?


15 16 17 Q. You were asked some questions on cross-examination about notes of meetings with the government. Do you remember being asked about that?


19 Q. I want to ask you about your meetings with the government.

20 21 22 23 24 When you met with the FBI and the government, did you cover every detail of your entire relationship with Maxwell and Epstein in every meeting with the government, or did you talk about different topics at different times at different meetings?

25 A. Different topics, different times, different meetings.

remember being asked about that?


4 A. I don't know.

5 6 Q. Did you have any opportunity to review any notes or reports of any meetings for accuracy?


8 9 Q. And before Ms. Menninger showed you some notes during your cross-examination, had you ever seen any of that before?


11 12 13 Q. In your conversations with prosecutors, were there times when we asked you about additional details of your experiences in followup meetings?


15 Q. Did we discuss every topic at every meeting?

16 A. No.

17 18 Q. I want to back up and ask you about your first meetings with the government.

19 20 Can you explain for the jury, was it difficult to talk to the government in your first meetings?

21 A. Yes, absolutely.

22 Q. Why was that difficult?

23 24 25 A. Because I was sitting in a room full of strangers and telling them the most shameful, deepest secrets that I'd been carrying around with me my whole life.

Q. Did you take any notes during the meetings?


Q. Who took the notes?

4 Q. Why was that?

5 6 A. Because it was too difficult, too difficult emotionally, too difficult on every level.

7 8 Q. Over time, did you become more comfortable sharing the details about what happened to you with the government?


10 Q. Why was that?

11 12 13 A. Because I guess I became more familiar with the people sitting in front of me, and starting to feel like I could trust them, and it didn't feel quite as embarrassing.

14 15 Q. Did there come a point in your meetings with the government where fewer people were in the room?


17 18 19 Q. And did you have an understanding at the time about why in your meetings with the government there started to be fewer people in the room?

20 A. I believe it was to make me more comfortable.

21 22 Q. And how did you feel once you started having meetings with the government with fewer people in the room?

23 A. It started feeling easier.

24 25 Q. I want to ask you about your last few meetings with the government leading up to the trial. During those meetings in

Q. In those first meetings, were you able to share with the government all of the details of what had happened to you?


the last few months, was your attorney present?

4 A. Just me and you guys.

5 6 7 Q. You were asked some questions on cross-examination about your living situation when you were in middle school and high school living in Palm Beach. Do you remember those questions?


9 10 11 Q. So I just want to ask you about where you were living at the time. In the summer of 1994, when you first met Maxwell and Epstein, where were you living?

12 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Leading, your Honor.

13 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

14 15 16 17 A. That summer we were still living on Palma Way at my mother's friend, Joan, in her pool house in her back yard, and we -- when we came home from camp that summer, we were still living in that place.

18 19 Q. Did your family struggle financially during the years that you were in high school?


21 22 Q. Was there ever a time when you and your brothers had a hard time paying for lunch at school?

23 MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. 403.

24 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

Q. In general, who was in the room?

4 5 6 7 8 A. I mean, I remember my mother never had any money. She didn't work, so she didn't have money to really pay for anything. We had food stamps that she refused to use because her pride was too big, and she would sort of, you know, scrounge for quarters, and sometimes I would give my brothers my lunch money and pretend like I had some so that they could eat.

9 10 Q. Did your family's financial circumstances improve after you met Maxwell and Epstein?

11 A. But -- no.

12 Q. Did Jeffrey Epstein help your family financially?

13 A. In some ways, yes.

14 15 Q. Can you describe for the jury the ways that Jeffrey Epstein helped your family financially?

16 17 18 19 20 A. Well, he -- he handed me cash. He gave us a computer. He paid for some school stuff. He -- he paid for Interlochen Arts Camp for the next two summers. He paid for my younger brother's Interlochen Arts Academy his entire year at boarding school. Gave us gifts. And, you know, so on and so forth.

21 22 Q. Did there come a time when your family moved out of the pool house?


24 Q. And where did you move to?

25 A. That's when we moved to that second house that was first

Q. Can you tell the jury what you remember about that?

4 Q. Approximately when did you move out of the pool house and into the three-bedroom house?

5 6 A. We moved out of the pool house in, I think, spring of '96. Wait. Sorry. I'm tired. The spring of '95. Sorry.

7 8 9 Q. Do you recall being asked some questions on cross-examination about whether you traveled internationally when you were in high school?


11 12 Q. Just to be clear, did those trips have anything to do with Maxwell and Epstein?

13 A. No.

14 15 Q. Without discussing any specifics about your family members, do you have some family members who live abroad?

16 17 18 A. Yes, that's -- the country that we would travel to, that's where we were from, and any time those dates that were discussed earlier, that would be a family trip home.

19 20 Q. Do you recall being asked on cross-examination questions about whether you had ever talked to a reporter?


22 23 24 Q. And you were asked about whether you made a statement to a tabloid about what had happened to you with Jeffrey Epstein. Do you remember being asked about that?


discussed, that three-bedroom house. My sister was the one who rented it for us.

4 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.

5 A. Okay. Sorry.

6 MS. III: I'm happy to rephrase, your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Go ahead.

8 9 Q. When you had that conversation with the reporter, did you want to have that conversation?


11 Q. Why did you agree to speak to that reporter?

12 A. Because he basically blackmailed me.

13 MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay.

14 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

15 16 17 A. He said that he -- that court documents with my name on it were unredacted, and that the Epstein's little black book was out, and my name was in it, and he was going to print --

18 MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay.

19 20 21 THE COURT: We'll limit what the witness has testified to as not being offered for the truth of what was stated by someone else but the effect on the listener.

22 And let's re-narrow the question.

23 24 MS. III: Yes, your Honor. May I ask a leading question to navigate through this?

25 THE COURT: Let me hear the question.

Q. Can you please explain for the jury what were the circumstances under which a reporter approached you?

A. Well, it was a reporter who called me and said --

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Q. When you spoke with that reporter, did that reporter threaten to reveal your identity publicly if you wouldn't speak with him?


Q. Is that why you spoke with the reporter?


Q. Did you make an agreement with the reporter in order to make sure your identity wasn't revealed?


Q. And what was that agreement?

A. The agreement was to briefly discuss only how I had met Jeffrey Epstein.

Q. And in exchange for doing that, what did the reporter agree to do?

A. He promised to keep my name anonymous.

Q. Did the reporter keep your name anonymous?


Q. Was that important to you at the time?


Q. Why was that so important to you?

A. It was important because I was -- I was scared. I was embarrassed, ashamed. I didn't want anybody to know any of this about me. I wanted to stay out of it. I -- I'm working on a TV show, and I didn't want everybody to know that that was me and associate me with any of this, and so I desperately did

4 5 MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Asked and answered.

6 THE COURT: Sustained.

7 8 Q. Approximately how long was that conversation with the reporter?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Was it in person?

11 12 A. No. It was in my car on the side of the road with my phone plugged in.

13 14 Q. Was that a phone conversation or an in-person conversation in your car?

15 A. Just a phone conversation.

16 Q. Was it a detailed conversation?

17 A. I tried to make it not so detailed.

18 19 20 Q. You were asked some questions on cross-examination about your attorney, Robert Glassman. Do you remember those questions?


22 23 Q. Can you just explain for the jury without getting into any privileged conversations, how did you find this attorney?

24 25 A. He was a referral. Actually, he's friends with my husband's best friend, and I met with him, and I just liked

whatever I had to do to make sure that he didn't reveal my name.

Q. What were you scared of?

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him.

Q. You were asked some questions on cross-examination about your applications for admission to Interlochen. Do you remember those questions?


Q. I'd like to just ask you a few questions about those particular applications.

A. Okay.

MS. III: If I could just have a moment, I'm going to grab a copy of them.

Your Honor, I'd ask for permission for the witness and the jurors to view Defendant's Exhibit J-3 which I believ is in evidence under seal.

THE COURT: Let me just verify. Yes.

MS. III: Thank you, your Honor. May the jurors turn to that in their binders?

Ms. Menninger, without objection?


THE COURT: Jurors, you may pick up your binder and turn to J-3, correct?

Q. Jane, do you have that up in front of you?


Q. Just to be clear, what we're talking about is Defendant's Exhibit J-3, your application for admission to Interlochen for the summer of 1994?

4 A. 13.

5 6 7 Q. I want to ask you about a few things on this application. But when I do, I just want to be careful we are not reading anything into the record that's identifying about you.

8 9 10 11 12 If we could turn to the second page of that application, and directing your attention to the second section towards the bottom, do you remember Ms. Menninger asking you questions about whether you told Interlochen you were having any difficulties?


14 15 16 17 18 Q. Let me just be clear about this portion of the application. I want to direct your attention to the portion of the middle section that says: List two difficult works performed in orchestra, band or ensemble within the past year. Do you see that question?


20 21 Q. Is that the question you answered: Nothing has been difficult for me?

22 A. I guess I did.

23 Q. And what did you mean when you said that?

24 A. I have no idea.

25 Q. At the time, were you fairly talented?


Q. How old were you when you applied to go to Interlochen in 1994?


5 Q. Were you having difficulties at home during this time?

6 A. Absolutely, yes.

7 8 9 Q. You were asked some questions about the recommendation letters in your applications to Interlochen. Do you remember those questions?


11 12 13 Q. And you were asked about whether your recommenders talked about your family in a favorable light. Do you remember those questions?


15 16 Q. The people who you asked to recommend you for Interlochen, did they know what was going on in your house at home?


18 Q. Why was that?

19 20 21 A. Because we were very good at hiding what was going on at home, and these recommendation letters are basically just from our school teachers.

22 23 24 25 Q. I want to ask you one last question about this application. If you could turn back to the first page of Defendant's Exhibit J-3. And I want to focus your attention at the top section with applicant information. You see a few lines down, there's

A. Yes, and very cocky, apparently.

Q. Just to be clear, nowhere in this application did you say you weren't having any difficulties at home, right?

4 Defendant's Exhibit J-3 in the top header, the very first top

5 of the document under applicant information, do you see about

6 five lines down underneath the names of your siblings, the line

7 there?

8 A. Yes. Yes. Sorry.

9 10 Q. In your application, did you have to list your height and weight?


12 Q. And how tall were you when you were going to summer camp

13 that summer?

14 A. Five-two.

15 Q. How many pounds did you weigh?

16 A. 90.

17 Q. What grade were you in?

18 A. Seventh grade.

19 Q. I want to ask you about the next year you went to

20 Interlochen. If you could turn to --

21 22 23 MS. III: I'd ask for permission for the jurors to turn to Defendant's Exhibit J-4 which is in evidence under seal.

24 THE COURT: Without objection, you may.

25 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor.

a line that starts F, above sex, M or F?

A. I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time finding it. Where is it?

Q. So, in the very -- I'm looking in the first page of

THE COURT: You Thank you, your Honor.

BY MS.

Q. On this application, I want to ask you about that same section about the applicant information?

THE COURT: J-4 for the jurors.

A. Mmm-hmm.

Q. Directing your attention to that same line, by the next year in 1995, how tall were you by then?

A. It says I was five-four.

MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. It misstates the date on the document. The date on the document is not what was just represented by counsel.

THE COURT: Ms. III, go ahead.


Q. In your application for the next year at summer camp, how tall were you by then?

A. It says I was five-four.

Q. You'd grown two inches?

A. I don't know, I may have been fibbing.

Q. What grade were you in by then?

A. Eighth grade.

Q. Do you recall defense counsel asking you about Government Exhibit 761 and whether that was your application to the Professional Children's School?

4 Q. Do you remember being shown a document on cross-examination and being asked about whether that was your application to the Professional Children's School?


6 7 Q. And did you recognize that document as your application to the Professional Children's School?


9 Q. Do you recognize the handwriting on that document?

10 A. Is it here? Can I see it or

11 Q. That's all right. I can move on.

12 A. Okay.

13 14 15 Q. You were asked some questions on cross-examination about your career as an actor. Do you remember being asked about that?


17 18 Q. Do you know the difference between acting on television and testifying in court?


20 Q. What's the difference?

21 22 A. Acting on television is not real, and testifying in court is real, is the truth.

23 Q. Are you acting here today?

24 A. No.

25 0. What are you here to do?

A. I'm sorry, I don't know what that means.

4 5 my entire life up until now, and I'm just tired of it, and I was just hoping that I could help in any way to make that happen and to hopefully find some peace and healing some day.

6 7 8 Q. I want to ask you a few more questions about the summer of 1994. About how many weeks were you at summer camp that summer?

9 A. Eight weeks.

10 11 Q. Were there weeks when you were at summer camp that summer when you were 13?


13 14 Q. Were there weeks when you were in summer camp that summer when you were 14?


16 Q. Is your birthday in the summer?


18 19 Q. Do you remember which week of summer camp you met Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein?

20 A. No.

21 22 Q. How strong is your memory of meeting Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein at summer camp in 1994?

23 A. Pretty strong.

24 Q. Why is that memory pretty strong?

25 A. Because it was the beginning of when my life would change

A. I am here to hopefully finally find some sort of closure to all of this. This is something that I have been running from


5 6 Q. How old were you when you first touched Jeffrey Epstein's penis?

7 A. 14.

8 9 Q. Can you describe for the jury how you touched his penis when you were 14?

10 11 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, this exceeds the scope of cross. I didn't ask this question.

12 13 14 MS. III: Your Honor, I believe there were questions on cross-examination about whether she remembers details how strong those memories are.

15 THE COURT: Overruled.

16 MS. III: Thank you, your Honor.

17 THE COURT: You may answer.

18 19 A. I mean, how do you touch a penis, you put your hand around it?

20 21 Q. And what would you do when you touched his penis when you were 14?

22 A. Umm, masturbate him?

23 24 25 Q. Who would give you instructions about what to do during incidents when Jeffrey Epstein sexually abused you when you were 14?

forever.

Q. You were asked on cross-examination about your memories of being sexually abused. Do you remember those questions?

A. Well, the first time was Ghislaine.

4 like fun, casual relationship I had with her just changed.

5 6 Q. When you say the first time, when you talk about first times, what do you mean by that?

7 8 A. Meaning that the first time I was ever like unclothed with just the both of them.

9 10 Q. You were asked a lot of questions on cross-examination about first and first times. Do you remember those questions?

11 A. I think so.

12 13 Q. Fair to say there were a lot of firsts for you when you were 14 and 15 and 16 with Maxwell and Epstein?

14 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Leading, your Honor.

15 THE COURT: Sustained.

16 MS. III: Your Honor, if I could just have one moment.

17 THE COURT: Okay.

18 (Pause)

19 MS. M: Thank you very much.

20 BY MS. III:

21 22 23 24 Q. I want to ask you about just one last topic. You were asked some questions on cross-examination about the award you received from the Epstein Victims' Compensation Fund. Do you remember being asked on cross-examination about that?


Q. Why does that stand out to you in your memory?

A. Because it was just significant. It's when that sort of

4 THE COURT: Sustained.

5 6 Q. Jane, in your own words, can you tell the jury what that money meant to you?

7 A. Sorry.

8 Q. It's all right. Take your time.

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A. I mean, it -- II, I wish I would have never received that money in the first place because of what happened. You know, when you're seeking some sort of closure, and I guess in, you know, laws in this country, compensation is the only thing you can get to try to move on with your life and for the, you know, pain and abuse and suffering that I received, and all the out-of-pocket money I paid to try to make this go away and to try to fix myself.

17 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Narrative, your Honor.


19 20 A. So, you know, hopefully this just puts it all to an end, and I can move on with my life.

21 22 Q. Do you have any financial stake in the outcome of this trial?

23 A. No.

24 MS. : Nothing further, your Honor.

25 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Menninger.

Q. To be clear, would you give that money back if it meant that you weren't abused as a kid?

MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Leading, your Honor.

MS. MENNINGER: No recross. Thank you.

THE COURT: Thank you, Jane. You may step down. You are excused.

4 (Witness excused)

5 6 7 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take our mid-afternoon break. Your snacks are here. We will break for about 15 minutes. Thank you.

8 (Jurors not present)

9 THE COURT: You may be seated.

10 Matters to take up before the break?

11 MS. III: Not from the government, your Honor.

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 MS. STERNHEIM: I have a matter, Judge. I believe the next witness is Matt, whose issue was teed up yesterday. In advance of his testimony, just to make sure that it is compliant with the Federal Rules of Evidence, I would request that the government give a proffer of what he is going to say, as there are things in his 3500 material that did not come out on direct examination, and it would be improper for him to be able to testify as to things that are not prior consistent statements.

21 22 THE COURT: There are things in his 3500 material that the previous witness said to him --

23 MS. STERNHEIM: Yes.

24 25 THE COURT: -- that were not asked about of the witness.

4 THE COURT: During the break?

5 MS. STERNHEIM: Of course.

6 7 THE COURT: Great. I appreciate you raising it, and let me know if there's disagreement. Thank you.

8 MS. STERNHEIM: Will do.

9 THE COURT: We'll break for ten.

10 (Recess)

11 (Jurors not present)

12 THE COURT: Matters to take up?

13 MS. III: Not from the government your Honor.

14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 MS. STERNHEIM: Just very briefly, Judge. I did have an opportunity to confer with Ms. III. I just want to state for the record, with regard to the introduction of prior consistent statements, it is my understanding that there needs to be a similar exactitude as one would have with prior inconsistent statements, and I understand that the government is offering their next witness, Matt, to establish the fact that there was some colloquy discussion between Matt and Jane at an earlier time before this. I have no problem with that.

23 24 25 The issue is that, at least in the 3500 material, the statements that Matt made are not -- they don't dovetail entirely with what went on on the direct examination. One

MS. STERNHEIM: Right.

THE COURT: Okay. Can you confer?


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example would be, his 3500 material is that she said that Ms. Maxwell brought girls. There was no testimony to that.

There was testimony that there were women, but not that she brought them. There was testimony of her presence, but not necessarily that she told the group that everything would be okay.

That's the kind of statements that are in the 3500 material. And I have addressed this with Ms. III. We're not entirely sure how it will come out, but it isn't a prior consistent statement. There is a prior conversation or discussion, but the statements themselves are not consistent.

THE COURT: Ms. III.

MS. III: Your Honor, I believe the Court's ruling on this is that we would evaluate the statements as they come out through the witness. And as a preview, after conferring with Ms. Sternheim on this issue, we did confer with Matt and asked him about what he recalls, specifically about the woman he recalls Jane telling him. Again, it's always difficult to predict the precise testimony of a lay witness, but my general expectation is that he would explain that in conversations with Jane, she explained that there was a woman at the house who made her feel comfortable; that sometimes there was that woman at the house, sometimes there were girls; and so that made her feel comfortable in the house.

I don't expect that the testimony would go beyond

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that, but again, we're talking about a number of conversations during this time period. That's my current expectation. But I think with respect to I think some of the granular issues, the difference between woman and girls, I think, especially in this context is not so different that it would not be a prior consistent statement. And beyond that, your Honor, we think this tracks the rule.

MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, I disagree. The distinction between a girl and a woman is precisely what this case is about, and she was very clear that she felt like she was the only one. The other people were women.

THE COURT: She said she didn't know what their ages were.

MS. STERNHEIM: She didn't know their ages, but she did not refer to them as girls.

THE COURT: But wasn't the recent testimony, I think it was on cross, which was: Were there underage girls. And she said, "I wouldn't know the ages."

MS. STERNHEIM: That's fine, but to call them girls connotes that they are minors, and that parlays right into the government's theory of the case, and they're bringing it out through a witness whose sole purpose is substantiated prior consistent statement, and that is not consistent with the testimony that we've heard.

If he wants to say there were prior women, I can't

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make objection to that, but I do object to the term girls, and I do object to other aspects of his 3500 material insofar as there was no testimony, and this witness should not be used to supplant what the primary witness did not testify about.

THE COURT: I agree with you on that distinction.

This witness can't testify as a prior consistent statement that Jane told him that there were -- I mean, there's ambiguity in the term, but I think since the witness couldn't testify if they were underage or not, I can't allow the witness to make that as an implication since that implication wouldn't be consistent with the testimony.

MS. M: Yes, your Honor. I think on this point, to be clear, the government doesn't intend to argue in closing that the jury must infer from the evidence that there were underage girls in the room because of Matt's testimony. I think it is, unfortunately, common that often women above the age of 18 are referred to as girls. That's how he remembers it.

I would be happy to lead him through that testimony, if the Court would prefer, and use the term females. It's not our intention to elicit the testimony to suggest anything in particular about the ages of those folks, but that's how he remembers it, and that's the word he uses.

THE COURT: Why don't you -- I'll let you lead, but why don't you just say other people, or something like that.

4 MS. III: If I ask him about that, I do expect he would say, yes, other girls. And so I think unless it's a leading question, I just want to front that in order to avoid creating an issue there.

5 6 7 THE COURT: Yes. Well, lead, and that way I don't have to strike the testimony as not a prior consistent statement.

8 9 MS. III: Yes, your Honor. If the Court authorizes us to lead, I think we can navigate through this area.

10 11 THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim, okay if she leads through this portion?

12 13 14 15 MS. STERNHEIM: I have no problem with that, Judge, but if the witness on his own sua sponte says girls, I will be objecting to that. I cannot rely on what they are going to do or not do in closing.

16 THE COURT: I agree with that. That's why I said

17 MS. STERNHEIM: That's fine.

18 19 20 21 22 23 THE COURT: -- I will let Ms. III lead so I don't have to strike that testimony. I think we are in agreement that if he were to testify that she told her that there were girls, the implication would be underage; that implication wouldn't be a prior consistent statement, and so I wouldn't allow that implication to stay with the jury.

24 25 MS. STERNHEIM: I understand, and I thank you for that. But the other part would be there was no testimony on

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direct that Ms. Maxwell brought women. There were women there but not that she brought them, and I think that Ms. Menninger cleared that up on cross-examination as well.


MS. III: Your Honor, particularly, if I'm permitted to ask leading questions, I wouldn't expect to ask that particular question.

THE COURT: Okay. You won't ask it, it sounds like.


MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you Judge.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Anything else?

MS. III: Your Honor, very briefly, I just wanted to clarify because I believe in briefing the subject of prior consistent statements, defense counsel had raised the prospect of recall of the witness. So I just wanted to make sure in terms of our contacts with Jane, we had clarity on that status.

THE COURT: Yes. And I didn't hear it from anyone on the 615 issue on the timing that I said, so I assumed you worked that out, correct?

MR. : Yes, your Honor. Our understanding is that none of the witnesses who are testifying as victims are intending to observe any of the trial until at least both sides have rested, which we've conveyed to the defense, and we understand there would be no objection to that.

THE COURT: So then the open question is might there

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be recall that would prohibit the government from conferring with a witness who's completed their testimony?

MS. III: Yes, your Honor. We just wanted to navigate that, otherwise I think we would make arrangements for Jane to travel home to her family today. And so if we wanted to make those arrangements, we will need to be in touch with her to make those arrangements, otherwise not planning to have substantive communications, but I wanted to be very transparent and candid about those contacts and just the state-of-play on this issue.

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, my recollection is that there was a second witness who was going to be offering prior consistent statements for Jane.

MS. III: That's correct, your Honor. I think our preference would district, but if possibility of a additional prior be for Jane to be permitted to leave the we can be in touch with her about the need for recall after today, if there are consistent statements, we can navigate it that way. Otherwise, Jane would have to remain in the district for I think potentially a long time.

MS. MENNINGER: I have no objection to that, your Honor. I do have one clarifying question, which is, while not observing the trial in the courtroom, there is certainly substantial coverage of the trial including relaying witnesses' testimony. So I don't know whether that has been clarified

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with the witness that not just sitting in the overflow room, but we're not reading media about it either.

THE COURT: I'm sure you all discussed this when I raised the 615 issue weeks ago, right? Maybe it surprised you there's media coverage.

Why don't you talk -- I am going to bring in the jury, so you'll talk about it and let me know if you disagree.


THE COURT: Okay. Bring in the jury.

I'm sorry. Two administrative matters before we bring in the jury. I admitted J-8 and 9.


THE COURT: And to be clear, that needs to be admitted under seal because it has specific identifying information of a witness whom I've permitted to testify under a pseudonym.

Tell me if that's true for J-15 as well.

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I believe that was a pleading that was filed under a pseudonym. I can check it certainly to be sure and confer with the government. We'll check it one more time, your Honor --


MS. MENNINGER: and confer.

And then as for 8 and 9, we were going to put 8 and 9 on the sticker, make copies to replace in the binder.

THE COURT: Okay. So confer and let me know if J-15

4 MS. III: Thank you, your Honor. We'll review the transcript from today and confer about exhibits and their status under seal.

5 6 7 THE COURT: And then, to be clear, the next witness I'm permitting to testify under a pseudonym to protect the identity of the prior witness.

8 MS. III: Yes, your Honor.

9 10 11 THE COURT: And so I guess consistent with that, sketch artists should not draw an exact likeness of the next witness who will also be testifying under a pseudonym.

12 MS. M: Yes, your Honor.

13 14 THE COURT: Now we can bring in the jury. (Jury present)

15 16 THE COURT: Please take your seats as you come in. Everyone may be seated. Thank you, members of the jury.

17 Ms. III the government may call its next witness.

18 19 MS. III: Thank you, your Honor. The government calls a witness identified as Matt.

20 21 THE COURT: The witness identified as Matt may come forward.

22 MATT,

23 24 called as a witness by the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

25 THE COURT: begin your direct

needs to be admitted under seal.

4 THE COURT: It is.

5 MS. III: Thank you.

6 DIRECT EXAMINATION

7 BY MS. III:

8 Q. Good afternoon.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Are you testifying under the name Matt today?


12 13 Q. Are you using a pseudonym in order to protect the privacy of the person you are going to be testifying about today?


15 Q. I'd like you to just take a look at the witness stand.

16 17 18 There's a folder in front of you. Would you mind just taking a look at that document. And that is what's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 17?


20 21 Q. Without saying what's on the document, do you recognize that?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. What is that?

24 A. It's my driver's license.

25 Q. Is that your true name?

examination of the witness testifying under the pseudonym Matt.

MS. III: Thank you your Honor is the Court's order with respect to sketch artists now in effect?

4 MS. STERNHEIM: No objection.

5 6 7 THE COURT: Without objection, GX-12 is admitted under seal to protect the identity of the witness who I permitted to testify under a pseudonym.

8 9 MS. III: Apologies, your Honor. My colleagues just alerted me it's Government Exhibit 17, not 12. I misspoke.

10 THE COURT: Or I did. GX-17. Thank you.

11 MS. III: Thank you, your Honor.

12 13 (Government's Exhibit 17 received in evidence under seal)

14 15 the jurors now view that exhibit in their binders?

16 THE COURT: Without objection, Ms. Sternheim.

17 MS. STERNHEIM: No objection, your Honor.

18 19 THE COURT: Jurors may pick up your binders and look at Exhibit GX-17, please. Large binder, GX-17. Thank you.

20 BY MS. M:

21 22 Q. Now that the jurors are there, just to be clear, on Government Exhibit 17, is that your true name?

23 A. Yes, that is.

24 Q. Is that your driver's license?

25 A. Yes, that is.

A. Yes, it is.

MS. III: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 12 under seal.

4 Is that okay?

5 A. Yes, that's okay.

6 7 8 9 Q. All right. If the jurors could keep their binders for a moment up, we'll turn to another exhibit in a moment. Let me pause here and just ask you, Matt, how far did you go in school?

10 A. High school.

11 Q. What kind of work do you do now?

12 A. I'm an actor.

13 Q. Do you work on a television show?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 16 Q. Are you employed full time as an actor in a television show?

17 A. Yes, I am.

18 19 Q. For how many years have you been employed full time as an actor?

20 A. I'd say on and off for the last 15 years.

21 22 23 24 Q. And if you could please take a look at the binder in front of you, and take a look at Government Exhibit 12, which is in evidence and under seal. Do you have Government Exhibit 12 in that folder?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Q. For today's purposes --

THE COURT: Ms. III, can you come closer to the mic?

Q. For today's purposes, we'll be referring to you as Matt.

Q. I would ask that the jurors please turn to Government Exhibits 12 in their binder, which is in evidence and under seal.

4 THE COURT: Without objection, Ms. Sternheim?

5 MS. STERNHEIM: No objection.

6 THE COURT: You may look at GX-12, please.


8 9 10 11 Q. Focusing on Government Exhibit 12, I want to direct your attention to the top left corner of that document. Without saying her name, do you recognize the person listed on that birth certificate?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 14 Q. For today's purposes, we're going to refer to that person as Jane. Will you do that?


16 17 MS. III: Thank you, your Honor. I think that's all we need for the binders today?

18 THE COURT: Okay. Put the binders away.

19 20 Q. Now that we know who we're talking about, I want to ask you some questions about Jane. How do you know Jane?

21 A. She's my ex-girlfriend.

22 Q. Approximately what year did you first meet Jane?

23 A. First time was 2002 and the second time was 2006

24 (Continued on next page)

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5 6 Q. During approximately what years were you in a romantic relationship with Jane?

7 A. 2006 till 2014, approximately.

8 Q. During those years, did you live together?


10 Q. What years did you live together?

11 A. 2007 till 2014.

12 Q. Did you keep in touch with Jane after you broke up?


14 Q. What's the nature of your current relationship with Jane?

15 A. We're friends.

16 Q. Have you had a professional relationship with Jane?

17 A. Yes, I have.

18 19 Q. What's the nature of your professional relationship with Jane?

20 A. Jane and I, we work on the same TV show.

21 22 Q. During the years that you lived with Jane, did you get to know some of her family members?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 25 Q. Were there times when Jane would talk to you about what her home life was like when she was growing up?


Q. Did there come a time when you were in a romantic relationship with Jane?

4 5 Q. Let me just take a step back and ask you some questions about how that topic came up. In general, how would the topic of Jane's home life come up during the course of your relationship?

6 7 8 9 A. There's different aspects of the home life, but just most likely, I would say, getting to know her family and getting to know the relationships between her and her siblings and her mother and the struggles that she went through.

10 11 Q. During the years that you were dating Jane, did she tell you about what her home life was like when she was a kid?

12 A. Yes, she did.

13 Q. What did she tell you about that?

14 MS. STERNHEIM: Objection.

15 THE COURT: Do you want a more specific question?

16 17 MS. STERNHEIM: Well, that is hearsay. That is not the basis of this witness's testimony.

18 19 20 MS. Your Honor, it's both the foundation for a prior consistent statement and a prior consistent statement itself.

21 22 THE COURT: In light of cross, I think that's right, but I'll hear you if --

23 MS. STERNHEIM: If I may be heard briefly.

24 THE COURT: Yes.

25 (Continued on next page)


4 5 6 MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, the witness is going to talk about home life. It's not the subject matter of his testimony, it's whether she revealed to him at a time earlier than meeting with the government allegations concerning Ms. Maxwell.

7 8 9 10 THE COURT: Well, but Ms. Menninger crossed on the veracity of her poverty and financial situation growing up and the relationship with her mother, and I assume that's where we're going.

11 12 13 MS. STERNHEIM: I think the government -- I don't think that's the issue here. The issue is whether she stated at sometime earlier that she was abused.

14 15 16 THE COURT: Well, that's true. But you've put in issue her credibility about everything. Why did you cross her on whether she grew up poor?

17 18 19 20 MS. STERNHEIM: Because they raised it. They raised the fact that she lived in a pool house. The witness testified under oath that she lost her home after her father died. I don't think that's the issue

21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: So you've attacked her credibility on that. You said her credibility on everything is an issue. You specifically attacked her credibility on that. Why can't it come in as a prior consistent -- you're saying this witness can only testify about --

(At sidebar)

THE COURT: We discussed this yesterday, didn't we?

MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, if that was the case, then anytime a witness is on the stand who spoke about their home life, you could bring a witness in? I've never seen that before. I understand the subject matter with regard to the allegations in this case.

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THE COURT: Right. For sure.

MS. STERNHEIM: But prior consistent, my father died, I don't think that we're contesting that her father died.

THE COURT: Right. But you contested whether she grew up poor, whether she had a relationship with her mother that wouldn't allow her to -- you put all of those things at issue; made a strong point that every inconsistency is an issue because her credibility is central. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

MS. STERNHEIM: No, that would mean they could pull anyone she was involved with to support the fact that she had a difficult --

THE COURT: What is the nature of your objection? So that this witness -- I mean, either it's a prior consistent statement or it's not. I don't understand -- so under the Rule 801(b)(3), right, that's the evidentiary objection. You attacked her credibility on what she testified about her home life. What is the evidentiary objection? Relevance? 403? Tell me.

MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, it seems like we're going to

have a witness here who's just going to testify about everything he knew about her because he was in a relationship with her and --

THE COURT: No, I won't allow everything that he knew about her. I will allow issues that you specifically spent time on cross-examination.

MS. STERNHEIM: Okay.

THE COURT: Attacking her credibility.


4 MS. M: Yes, your Honor.

5 BY MS.

6 7 Q. Matt, were there times when Jane would talk to you about her family's financial circumstances when she was growing up?


9 Q. What did she tell you about that?

10 11 12 13 14 A. She told me that when her father got sick, that her mother spent basically all of the money that they had for his treatments, and obviously hoping that he would survive. And he didn't. And basically she -- that she was the one who left them broke.

15 16 Q. And did Jane tell you what her family's financial circumstances were like after her father passed away?


18 Q. What did she tell you about that?

19 20 21 22 23 A. That they basically had no money. The mother was working a small job. And I think she said at one point the three of the -- that her and her two brothers were sleeping in the same bed at one point because they were living in such a small place, and the three of them had to sleep in the same bed.

24 25 Q. Did there come a time when Jane told you how she was able to pay for things when she was a kid?


THE COURT: Ms. III, I'll ask you to rephrase, to narrow the question.

A. Yes, she did.

4 5 A. It's probably 2006, 2007, when we -- when we first started dating, just getting to know each other.

6 7 Q. What did Jane tell you during that conversation about how she was able to pay for things when she was a kid?

8 9 10 A. She said her mom had a job that paid basically nothing; and that she had it -- it was like a godfather, an uncle, a family friend type person that basically helped her mom pay the bills.

11 12 Q. Is this something Jane discussed with you once or more than once during the course of your relationship?

13 A. More than once.

14 15 16 Q. During the conversations with Jane about this godfather figure, did you come to learn the name of the uncle figure or godfather figure?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. What did she tell you his name was?

19 A. His name is Jeffrey Epstein.

20 21 Q. In general, when Jane would talk with you about her experiences with Jeffrey Epstein, how would that topic come up?

22 23 A. First it was purely that he was -- you know, that he was a godfather and, you know, he was looking out for her family.

24 25 And then the topic came up when she came to me when -- I think it was in two thousand -- like 2009, she was contacted,

Q. up? Approximately what year was it when this conversation came

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I think, by the FBI to see if she would tell her story, if she had a story.

And she came to me and she said, I need to tell you something.

And I said, Yeah.

And she said, You know the godfather that I told you about, the person that was helping my family?

And I said, Yes, I do.

And she said, I need you to know that this is who it is.

And it was public news.

And that's when I said, That guy is your godfather? That's the guy that was helping you pay your bills and your family's bills?

And she said, Yes.

Q. Did Jane tell you when she met Jeffrey Epstein?


Q. What did Jane tell you about when she met Jeffrey Epstein?

A. She told me she met him shortly after --

THE COURT: Just a minute. Just a minute.

THE WITNESS: Sorry.

THE COURT: More specific question.

MS. Your Honor, I can lay some additional foundation for that and return to it later, if that's acceptable.

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THE COURT: Okay. And then you'll ask it as a more specific question.


THE COURT: Thank you.


Q. Did there ever come a time when Jane explained to you why it was that she received financial help from Jeffrey Epstein?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Approximately when did she tell you about that?

A. When -- when the -- when she told me who it was, when she told me the name of the person and --

Q. What did Jane tell you about why it was that she received this money from Jeffrey Epstein?

A. Well, once -- once I learned who it was, I asked her if she was one of the girls, and she said that she was.

MS. STERNHEIM: Objection.

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.

The jury will disregard the last statement of the witness. And you'll ask a specific question, Ms. III.


Q. Did Jane tell you what happened between her and Jeffrey Epstein during the years that she knew him?

A. Not specifically.

Q. Did there come a time when she told you why it was that Jeffrey Epstein gave her money?

4 5 A. Well, I was the one that asked her, based on after finding out who it was, I asked her if she was doing that for the money.

6 Q. What did she tell you she was doing for the money?

7 A. She said it wasn't --

8 THE COURT: Just a minute. Just a minute.

9 Sustained.

10 11 12 Q. In your conversations with Jane about Jeffrey Epstein, did there come a time when she told you that she had to do things she didn't want to do?


14 Q. What did she tell you about that?

15 A. She never went into detail; she just said it wasn't free.

16 17 Q. Did she ever use any particular words to describe the things that she had to do with Jeffrey Epstein?

18 A. Nothing specific. No specific words.

19 20 Q. In your conversations with her, did she ever use the word "massage"?

21 MS. STERNHEIM: Objection. Leading.

22 THE COURT: Overruled.

23 I'll allow it. You may answer.


25 Q. What did she tell you about that?


Q. What did she tell you about that?

4 5 Q. Okay. But focusing on her statements to you, what did she tell you about massage?

6 A. Just that was it, that basically, that was it.

7 8 Q. Did Jane ever tell you how old she was when she had to do things with Jeffrey Epstein?

9 MS. STERNHEIM: Objection.


11 THE COURT: Overruled.

12 13 Q. And what did Jane tell you about how old she was when she had to do things with Jeffrey Epstein?

14 A. She said that it started at 14, when she met him.

15 Q. Did she tell you where she met him?


17 Q. What did she tell you about that?

18 A. She said it was a camp.

19 20 Q. In these conversations with Jane, did she ever tell you that someone else was present during a massage?

21 A. No.

22 23 Q. In your conversations with Jane, did you ever have any conversations with her about a woman?


25 Q. In your conversations with Jane about Jeffrey Epstein, did

A. I think it was only because of the fact that it was public knowledge, and that was as far as she would ever let me go into the -- into the -- what happened, what she did.

4 Q. Did she tell you that the woman in the house made her feel comfortable?


6 Q. Why did you ask her about the woman in the house?

7 8 9 A. I asked her because I couldn't understand why her mother would let her go with a man without anybody else present. And then she told me sometimes there were other girls present.

10 MS. STERNHEIM: Objection.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

12 The jury will disregard the witness's last statement.

13 Ms. III, you'll lead.

14 MS. M: Yes, your Honor.

15 Q. In your conversations with Jane -- withdrawn.

16 17 Approximately what year was it that Jane told you about this woman who made her feel comfortable?

18 A. It was when I found out about Jeffrey, approximately 2009.

19 20 21 Q. And in your conversations with Jane about her interactions with Jeffrey Epstein, did she tell you that this woman would tell her that it was okay?

22 A. Not specifically that. She didn't use those words.

23 Q. Okay. What words did she use?

24 25 A. She just said that having a woman there made her feel made her feel more comfortable.

she tell you that there was a woman present at his house?


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Q. At the time when you were having these conversations with Jane about this woman, did she tell you what the woman's name was?

A. No, she didn't.

Q. In general, when Jane would tell you about what had happened with her and Jeffrey Epstein, what was her demeanor like?

MS. STERNHEIM: Objection.

THE COURT: Grounds.

MS. STERNHEIM: Relevance.

MS. III: Your Honor, it's --


Go ahead. You may answer.

A. What was the question again?

Q. I'm happy to repeat it.

Matt, when you would have these conversations with Jane about her interactions with Jeffrey Epstein, what was her demeanor like when she would tell you about that?

A. Ashamed, embarrassed, horrified.

Q. Without telling me what she said, did you ask her about the details about what had happened with her and Jeffrey Epstein?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. In those interactions, did she provide you with details about those interactions?

A. No, she didn't.

4 A. She would just say to me, Matt, the money wasn't fucking free.

5 Q. Did she go beyond that?

6 A. No, she didn't.

7 8 Q. I believe you testified that you met Jane's family members when you were dating; is that right?


10 11 Q. Based on your observations during the years that you dated Jane, what was her relationship like with her mother?

12 A. It was rough. It was brutal.

13 14 Q. Did there ever come a time when you saw Jane confront her mother about Jeffrey Epstein?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Approximately when was that?

17 A. I think it was approximately 2011.

18 Q. Where were you when that happened?

19 A. I was at a house.

20 Q. Who was in the room when you had that conversation?

21 A. It was just --

22 MS. STERNHEIM: Objection.

23 Sidebar please.

24 THE COURT: One word, grounds.

25 MS. STERNHEIM: First time we are hearing this.

Q. What was her reaction when you asked her for details about those interactions?

4 5 6 7 MS. III: That he recalls being present when Jane and her mother were in a room. He recalls Jane saying to her mother, How could you not know the money wasn't for free? How could you not know?

8 THE COURT: Is that in 3500 material?

9 MS. III: Yes, I'm happy to pull it up.

10 11 12 13 14 MS. STERNHEIM: There's been no testimony by Jane about confrontation with her mother at this time. She testified that her mother was irate regarding a guidance counsellor, but she didn't go toe-to-toe with her mother about Jeffrey Epstein.

15 16 THE COURT: So it's in the 3500 material; it's not the first time you're hearing it.

17 18 MS. STERNHEIM: I don't recall if it's this witness or her brother.

19 THE COURT: Okay.

20 21 22 23 MS. STERNHEIM: But even if it is in the 3500 material, if it is not on the direct of Jane, why can it be offered as a prior consistent statement when it never was offered at all?

24 25 MS. M: This is a statement from Jane to her mother essentially acknowledging she was abused, expressing


(At sidebar)

THE COURT: What do you expect the witness to say?

frustration about that. That is entirely consistent with her testimony that she was, in fact, abused.

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MS. STERNHEIM: But not with regard to her mother having a confrontation.

THE COURT: Well, it's a prior consistent statement that he heard related to the abuse which you've repeatedly called into question in your opening and your direct and in your cross-examination.

MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, I understand that. But we're talking about prior consistent statements.

THE COURT: Right. The prior consistent statement is that she was abused by Jeffrey Epstein.

MS. STERNHEIM: But they are bringing out a conversation. If she wants to say, Did you know or learn that she was abused? Yes. But a conversation that she had with her mother is hearsay.

MS. III: Your Honor, it's not hearsay because it's a prior consistent statement of Jane about her experiencing sexual abuse.

THE COURT: Yes. Overruled.


4 5 Q. Did there ever come a time when you saw Jane confront her mother about Jeffrey Epstein?


7 Q. Approximately when was that conversation?

8 A. 2011.

9 Q. Who was present for that conversation?

10 A. It was just me, her, and her mom.

11 12 Q. What do you remember Jane saying to her mother during that conversation?

13 14 A. She told her mother that the money was not free, and confronted her mother about it. And her mother said, crying

15 THE COURT: Just a minute.

16 17 18 Q. Just focusing on just what Jane said and not what her mother said, can you explain to the jury what did Jane say to her mother?

19 A. How do you think I got the money, mom?

20 Q. Did she ask her mother whether her mother knew?

21 A. She told her mother that she knew. She accused her of it.

22 Q. What do you remember about the exact words that she used?

23 A. That Jane used, right?

24 25 Q. Yes. Can you just explain for the jury, what did Jane say to her mother?


THE COURT: Go ahead.


4 5 Q. Did there come a time when you learned that a woman named Ghislaine Maxwell was arrested?


7 Q. Was that in 2020?


9 10 Q. Without getting into details, how did you learn that Ghislaine Maxwell was arrested?

11 A. I saw it on the news.

12 13 Q. When you learned that Maxwell had been arrested, did you contact Jane?


15 Q. What did you ask her?

16 17 A. I just said, Is this the woman that you were referring to when you told me? And she said yes.

18 19 20 Q. Just to be clear, during your relationship with Jane, did she tell you that there was a woman at Jeffrey Epstein's house who made her feel comfortable?


22

23 THE COURT: Sustained.

24 MS. : Just a moment, your Honor.


A. Jane told her mother that -- that she -- that the money was not free, and that there's no way that she couldn't have known that it wasn't free.

MS. STERNHEIM: Asked and answered.

4 Ms. Sternheim.

5 MS. STERNHEIM: No, thank you.

6 THE COURT: All right.

7 No cross.

8 Witness Matt, you may step down.

9 You are excused.

10 (Witness excused)

11 THE COURT: Government may call its next witness.

12 MR. : The government calls Daniel Besselsen.

13 THE COURT: You may come forward.

14 Mr. Besselsen, come forward.

15 Somebody is getting him, Mr.

16 MR. : Yes, your Honor.

17 We apologize for the delay.

18 19 THE COURT: You can take a standing stretching break, if you'd like.

20 You may be seated.

21 DANIEL ALAN BESSELSEN,

22 called as a witness by the Government,

23 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

24 THE COURT: Go ahead.

25 MR. : Thank you, your Honor.


MS. III: Nothing further, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

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DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR.

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Besselsen.

A. Good afternoon.

Q. Mr. Besselsen, where do you work?

A. I work at Interlochen Center for the Arts.

Q. What is Interlochen Center for the Arts?

A. Interlochen is a nonprofit organization focused on arts education. We have our two largest programs, a arts camp in the summer, and a boarding high school during September through May. And we're focused on arts education, as I mentioned. So we have visual arts, music, creative writing, dance, theater, creative writing types of programming.

Q. Where is Interlochen located?

A. We're located in Interlochen, Michigan.

Q. Where is Interlochen, Michigan?

A. It's northern Michigan; it's about 20 minutes southwest of Traverse City, Michigan, which is the largest town in northern Michigan.

Q. How long have you worked there?

A. I've worked there 16 years.

Q. What's your title?

A. My title is assistant vice president of finance.

Q. And what are your responsibilities as an assistant vice president of finance?

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A. I oversee the finance department, including accounts payable, accounts receivable, our purchasing, payroll. I'm involved in overseeing director of campus safety and security, as well as the director of dining services. And I'm involved with the auditors, the banks, the investment companies, as well as external audits.

Q. And in that capacity, are you familiar with the normal business practices of Interlochen?


Q. In particular, are you familiar with the business practices regarding communications with donors?


Q. Does Interlochen maintain records of its communications with donors?


Q. What sorts of records?

A. For our major donors or prospects, we keep all correspondence with donors, whether it might be a letter, email correspondence, records of phone conversations, notes from visits with donors, things like that.

Q. Let's talk about letters in particular. How are letters that are written to donors created?

A. The letters are created by an individual in our advancement department who's charged with managing that particular donor relationship. And so they would be the ones that would write a letter to a donor or to a foundation.

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Q. Is there any relationship between the level of donation given and the person writing the letter to the donor?

A. Yes. Yup. For example, our vice president of advancement or even our president would handle a higher-end donor that might be capable of donating half a million dollars or more, for example. And we would have major gift officers that would be below that vice president of advancement that would handle folks with capacity to give \$100,000, \$200,000, something like that.

Q. When these letters are written to donors, does Interlochen put them in any sort of file?

A. Yes, yup. We keep track of all correspondence with donors. Nowadays, it's all electronic within Salesforce, which is the software we use to track fundraising and donations.

Historically, we have hard copy letters, for example. Prior to using Salesforce, we've got manila folders or files that we kept for each donor that includes all of the correspondence over time with that donor.

Q. How long are those records kept?

A. They are kept forever.

Q. And are they kept by Interlochen in the ordinary course of business?


MR. : Ms. Drescher, would you please display

for the witness, Court, and counsel what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 741.

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Q. Do you recognize this, Mr. Besselsen?


Q. What is it?

A. This is a letter from Interlochen's vice president of advancement to Mr. Epstein providing some information to him on the concept of building a scholarship lodge on Interlochen's campus and the level of donation that would be required to build a lodge.

Q. Mr. Besselsen, will you pick up the binder next to you. It has another copy of Government Exhibit 741.

Have you reviewed this exhibit before today?


Q. And what is this exhibit?

A. This exhibit are all of the letters or a portion of the letters that were included in Mr. Epstein's file that we've stored away in the filing cabinet in the basement of the McWhorter dorm locked away.

Q. How do you know these letters come from the Epstein file at Interlochen?

A. I myself went in and pulled it recently and saw these.

Q. Thank you.

MR. : The government offers Government Exhibit 741.

4 THE COURT: Okay.

5 MR. : Yes, it's eight pages.

6 7 I confer with the government for a moment?

8 THE COURT: You

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10 ■. **STERNHEIM: Thank you, Judge.**

11 **THE COURT: So it's eight pages.**

12 **MR. : Yes, your Honor.**

13 14 admitted. **THE COURT: All right. Without objection, GX-741 is**

15 **(Government's Exhibit 741 received in evidence)**

16 **BY MR.**

17 18 **Q. Mr. Besselsen, are you familiar with Interlochen's business practices regarding student records?**

19 **A. Yes.**

20 **Q. Does Interlochen keep a file on each student?**

21 **A. Yes.**

22 **Q. And how is that file maintained?**

23 24 25 **A. The file is maintained in a locked room in the lower level of the Maddy Administration Building. Once again, it's manila files or folders for each student, and includes information**

THE COURT: 741 is how many pages?

MR. : It is -- I believe it's eight pages, your Honor.

from the student, on a student.

Q. And what sort of information is contained in student records, in student files?

4 5 6 7 8 9 A. So the files include comments from faculty that were involved with that student's time on a camp -- academy programming or camp programming, as well as cabin life, comments from the counsellors during the camp programming, as well as applications, paper applications, if you go back in time, if we're talking about a camper or academy student.

10 Q. And are those records regularly put into the student file?


12 Q. And does Interlochen regularly maintain those records?


14 Q. How long are student records kept?

15 16 A. Records are kept for 99 years per Interlochen's record retention policy.

17 18 Q. In your binder, would you turn to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 743.

19 Without saying any names, do you recognize this?


21 Q. What is it?

22 23 A. This is an application for admission to our summer camp in 1994.

24 Q. Did you review this prior to today?

25 A. I did. 4 Q. How do you know?

5 6 7 8 A. Once again, this is something that I went in and tracked down and pulled this particular camper's file myself. And this was -- and these documents were in it, and this was attached to this particular application.

9 10 MR. : The government offers Government Exhibit 743 under seal.

11 MS. STERNHEIM: No objection.

12 13 14 THE COURT: GX-743 is admitted under seal, consistent with my ruling allowing the individual listed to testify under a pseudonym.

15 (Government's Exhibit 743 received in evidence)

16 17 Q. Mr. Besselsen, does Interlochen keep records that a student completes a program?


19 Q. Who makes those records?

20 21 A. Those records would be made or input by our admissions office.

22 Q. And how are those records maintained?

23 24 A. When a student is accepted and enrolls in a program, that is when those records are created in our software.

25 Q. And to be clear, are those records kept in the ordinary

Q. And turning to page 3 of that exhibit, is that photo part of the application?


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course of business?


Q. In your binder, would you turn to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 744.

Do you recognize this?


Q. Without saying any names, what is it?

A. This is a report out of Salesforce, which is our software that we use not only for fundraising, but also for student records, that I generated. And it's a report on education records, specifically pulling the completion year, first name, last name, and education type, with a filter on the last name.

Q. And just so the record is clear, you personally generated this spreadsheet?

A. I did, yes.

MR. : The government offers Government Exhibit 744 under seal.


THE COURT: GX-744 is admitted under seal consistent with my ruling allowing the individual listed to testify under a pseudonym.

(Government's Exhibit 744 received in evidence)

Q. Mr. Besselsen, I'd like to walk briefly through some of the exhibits we were just looking at.

MR. : Ms. Drescher, would you please publish

Government Exhibit 741 for the Court, counsel, the witness, and the jury.

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Q. Mr. Besselsen, what is this document?

A. This is a letter from Interlochen's vice president of advancement to Mr. Epstein providing him with additional information on the scholarship lodge, building a scholarship lodge on Interlochen's campus, and what it would take to -- in regards to donating for that project.

Q. You mentioned a scholarship lodge. What is a scholarship lodge?

A. A scholarship lodge is a rental lodge, a small home on our campus where parents of campers or academy students can come stay on campus, be close to the performance venues and things like that. So parents or guests of Interlochen or even the general public who come stay in this rental lodge and pay a - like a fee, like a hotel room to stay in.

MR. : Ms. Drescher, would you turn to page 2 of this document.

Q. what is this document? What are we looking at, Mr. Besselsen?

A. This is a letter, again, from Interlochen's vice president of advancement to Mr. Epstein thanking him for his donation of \$200,000 for a new scholarship lodge on our campus, and the different updates provided in the letter about construction timelines and things like that.

4 Ms. Drescher.

5 Q. Who is this letter from, Mr. Besselsen?

6 7 A. The letter is from Tim , vice president of advancement.

8 9 MR. : Ms. Drescher, turn to page 5 of this document.

10 Q. Mr. Besselsen, what is this document?

11 12 13 14 15 A. This is a letter from Interlochen's vice president of advancement to Ms. Maxwell enclosing an envelope that was found when Interlochen's custodial staff was cleaning the Epstein scholarship lodge, returning the lost envelope to Ms. Maxwell, as well as the next page of this provides a listing of items.

16 17 Q. Mr. Besselsen, we'll get to the next page in a moment, but would you read this letter for us?


19 20 21 22 Dear Ghislaine, enclosed is the envelope we recently found in cleaning the Epstein Lodge. Apparently it lodged between the wall and the dresser. It was not discovered until the unit was moved for cleaning.

23 24 25 As we discussed, the final week of camp is August 14 through the 20th. I've reserved the lodge for Jeffrey's use. In addition, he has one more week that he can reserve for

Q. Mr. Besselsen, what is the date of this letter?

A. February 9, 1994.

MR. : And turning now to the next page,

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himself or guests. He may wish to have use it.

Attached is a list of the dry goods that are in storage as part of Jeffrey's personal inventory. Please advise if we are missing any items you are aware of being sent here. Please convey to Jeffrey how pleased we are to have such a facility on our campus. In fact, the president-elect will be staying in the lodge until his family's furniture arrives. It is a remarkable place. We are grateful.

Best wishes for a wonderful holiday season.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Besselsen.

MR. : Ms. Drescher, will you turn to the next page.

Q. A moment ago you mentioned an attached list. Is this the attached list?


Q. And what sorts of items are on this list, Mr. Besselsen?

A. Different types of linens, pillows, blankets, towels, sheets, shams.

Q. Mr. Besselsen, while you've been at Interlochen have you been familiar with the Epstein Scholarship Lodge?


Q. Does it have any other names?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. What are the names?

A. The name is Green Lake Lodge.

Q. And what is this lodge, the Green Lake Lodge?

4 5 6 MR. : Ms. Drescher, would you display for the witness, the Court, and counsel what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 745.

7 Q. Mr. Besselsen, what is this?

8 A. This is the Green Lake Lodge, formerly known as the Jeffrey

9 E. Epstein Scholarship Lodge.

10 Q. Is this a fair and accurate photo of the lodge?


12 MR. : The government offers 745.

13 MS. STERNHEIM: No objection.

14 THE COURT: GX-745 is admitted.

15 (Government's Exhibit 745 received in evidence)

16 MR. : Ms. Drescher, will you publish this,

17 with the Court's permission.

18 THE COURT: You

19 . Drescher, you can take it down.

20 21 22 I'd now like to turn to Government Exhibit 744, which I believe is in the heavier of the juror binders. So if I could ask the Court to permit the jury to take out the binder?

23 THE COURT: It's already admitted?

24 MR. : Yes, your Honor.

25 THE COURT: All right. Without objection,

A. It's a two-bedroom home, formerly known as the Jeffrey

Epstein Scholarship Lodge.

4 MR. : 744.

5 THE COURT: You may look at in the large binder,

6 GX-744, please.

7 BY MR.

8 9 Q. Mr. Besselsen, you testified earlier that you generated this record from Interlochen's database?


11 Q. How did you do that?

12 13 14 15 A. I logged into Salesforce and went to the reports section in Salesforce and modified the filters. This is a report that - the title of the report is MJS Report. Went to that report and created these filters that you see at the top, the last name.

16 17 Q. Just to be clear, without saying the last name, is that the filter you ran to generate this report?


19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Besselsen.

20 21 What does this report show about people with this last name's attendance at Interlochen?

22 23 24 25 A. It shows which -- which years that they came to either the arts camp, which is the education type, the far right column. And that would be the summer then, if it relates to arts camp. So the summer of '94, '95, and '96. And then the arts academy

Ms. Sternheim?


THE COURT: And you said 744?

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would be -- the completion would be the May of that year, so May of 1999 and May of 2000.

MR. : With the Court's permission, I'd like to turn the jury's attention to Government Exhibit 743, which is also in evidence.

THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim?


THE COURT: The jury may turn to 743 in the same binder.

Q. So, Mr. Besselsen, again, without saying any names or other information, I would just ask you to take note of the address in the third section on the first page. Do you see this address?

A. Yup.

Q. All right.

MR. : Then with the Court's permission, I'd ask the jury to turn to Defense Exhibit J-4 in the defense binder which is in evidence.

And Mr. Besselsen, that is in the binder next to you.

THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim, without objection?

MS. STERNHEIM: No objection to whatever is admitted.

THE COURT: All right. And that's -- the jury is looking at J-4; correct?

MR. : Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: In the smaller binder. J-4 in the smaller

4 Q. Mr. Besselsen, do you note the address on page 1 of that document?


6 7 Q. Is it the same address as the address on the prior document?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 10 Q. And just to be clear, what is the document we're looking at right now?

11 12 A. This is an application for admission to our summer arts camp, which would be the summer of 1995.

13 14 Q. And the document we just looked at, Government Exhibit 743, what is that document? Again, without saying any names.

15 16 A. That's an application for admission to our arts camp, summer of 1994, previous summer.

17 18 19 Q. And then, Mr. Besselsen, and with the Court's permission, the jury, I would ask you to turn to Defense Exhibit J-5, which is also in evidence.

20 THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim.

21 MS. STERNHEIM: No objection.

22 23 THE COURT: You may turn to J-5 in the same small binder, please.

24 Q. Mr. Besselsen, do you recognize this document?


binder.

BY MR.

4 5 6 Q. Do you see the -- without saying any identifying information, do you see the address in the third section of this document?

7 A. I do.

8 9 Q. Is that the same address or a different address than the other address that you're looking at?

10 A. I believe it's a different address.

11 Q. Just to be clear, you think it's a different address?

12 A. Yes, it's a different address.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. : No further questions, your Honor.

15 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.

16 Ms. Sternheim?

17 I have a moment please?

18 THE COURT: You

19

20 ■. **STERNHEIM: Thank you, Judge.**

21 **THE COURT: Do you anticipate more than five minutes?**

22 **MS. STERNHEIM: Maybe less.**

23 **THE COURT: Go ahead.**

24 **CROSS-EXAMINATION**

25 **BY MS. STERNHEIM:**

Q. What is it, without saying any names?

A. This is an application for admission to our arts camp in the summer of 1996.

4 THE COURT: Take off your mask.

5 MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you.

6 7 8 Q. With regard to the applications that have been put in evidence, did you produce to the government who paid for that student?

9 10 A. I did not provide that to the government; so no, I'm not aware that we did provide that.

11 Q. Because you do not have those records; correct?

12 A. I believe that's correct, going back that far.

13 14 Q. And you don't have records for the siblings of that individual either; correct?

15 A. I believe so.

16 17 Q. And that would be for the years of attendance of those three siblings, 1994, 1995, and 1996; correct?


19 20 Q. Now, with regard to Mr. Epstein's invitation to come to the lodge, it was for the end of August; correct?

21 22 23 24 A. I believe the letter mentioned from Interlochen's vice president of advancement that we were having the final concert for our arts camp, I think it was August 7 or the week of August 7, I believe.

25 Q. And is it fair to say that in Interlochen, which some

Q. Mr. Besselsen, just a few questions for you.


Q. With regard to the --

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people call band camp, that the end is like the equivalent of color war for athletic camps?

A. I'm sorry, I don't have any experience with color war.

Q. Okay.

A. I don't know what that term means.

Q. It's when the performances are; it's the culmination of the summer experience. Correct?

A. That's true, yeah.

Q. And it is then that performances are going on as opposed to classes going on; correct?

A. The final day there are performances. I'm not sure if the entire week is like that or not, but --

Q. But nonetheless, the donors, especially the major donors, come for the performances; correct?

A. Yes. Some major donors do come to campus for performances.

Q. And Mr. Epstein certainly was a major donor; correct?


Q. And the invitation for him to have the lodge was for the period of time which is the culmination of the summer program; correct?

A. That would be correct, I would imagine, yes.

I have one moment, Judge?

MS. STERNHEIM: You're finished. Thank you.

4 THE COURT: All right.

5 Mr. Besselsen, you may step down. You are excused.

6 (Witness excused)

7 THE COURT: And that gets us at 5:02, jury. I

8 apologize for keeping you a little bit late.

9 10 11 12 I will remind you of all of my instructions, of course. Please keep them in mind. Same schedule for tomorrow. Thank you for your continued attention and diligence. Have a great night. See you tomorrow morning.

13 (Jury not present)

14 THE COURT: You may be seated.

15 Matters to take up, Mr.

16 17 MR. : Nothing from the government, your Honor.

18 THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim?

19 20 21 MS. : I apologize, your Honor. We do have an issue. We will need to take it up at sidebar because it relates to a pseudonym issue.

22 THE COURT: Okay. Sidebar pseudonym issue.

23 MS. : It will be brief, your Honor.

24 (Pages 672 SEALED)

25 (Continued on next page)

THE WITNESS: II, thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Mr.

MR. : No redirect. Thank you.

(At sidebar - not sealed)

4 The only thing I wanted to -- this isn't sealed. But timing, if you're going to brief piercing the privilege.

5 MR. PAGLIUCA: When would you like it, your Honor?

6 THE COURT: A month ago.

7 MS. STERNHEIM: We can turn back the hands of time.

8 THE COURT: I wish we could.

9 MS. STERNHEIM: I don't think you would.

10 We might, but not you.

11 12 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: I think it's a little more complicated than I think there are different issues related to different potential witnesses, I guess is the issue.

14 15 16 17 18 19 20 I'm happy to have it briefed as best we can under the facts that we know right now, assuming that the Court wants briefed is the issue we discussed today. Okay. Because then we may have issues related to lawyer witnesses that are under subpoena, but will not be called under any circumstances unless it's briefed and the Court gives permission for the calling of those witnesses.

21 22 23 THE COURT: Let's start with the limited issue that was raised today, which is that you would call -- you're seeking to call Glassman.

24 MR. PAGLIUCA: Glassman.

25 THE COURT: You're seeking to call Glassman on the

THE COURT: Okay. See you 8:45.

4 MR. PAGLIUCA: How about Friday, your Honor?

5 6 THE COURT: This would be a witness you would call in your case-in-chief?

7 8 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Exactly. So it's at least a week from now, I would imagine. I'm assuming the government has about a week more of testimony, by my review of the witness list.

10 11 MS. : Your Honor, I think that's right. We're unlikely to rest in less than a week from now.

12 THE COURT: So is Friday okay?

13 14 MR. : We can respond on Monday, if that's all right.

15 THE COURT: Sure. Great.

16 17 18 It will provide some general background on piercing privilege and waiver to the extent that will inform issues beyond the specific.

19 20 21 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: To the extent we can preview the additional issues, we'll get that underway as well so that you have a sense of what may or may not be coming down the road here.

23 24 25 THE COURT: Okay. Can I ask, thinking about timing, now that we're where we are, what is your estimate for the trial?

narrow question of whether under theory of waiver he told Jane that it would -- testifying would help her in her case.

When would you like to do that?

4 5 6 MS. : Your Honor, I think it depends on the length of cross-examination for some of the more substantial witnesses. If we can expect about the same length as we have with Jane today, I expect we'll be able to rest the third week of trial. So not next week, but the week after, early that week is my best estimate.

7 THE COURT: And what's the defense's best estimate?

8 MS. STERNHEIM: We'll let you know.

9 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm going to suspect the length of cross-examination will be less for the remaining witnesses.

11 THE COURT: We worked out some

12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Kinks, yes.

13 14 15 16 17 18 But I just think substantively it's likely to be less, and there's likely -- well, with the exception of one, there's less 3500 impeachment material that needs to be gone through potentially, so I think that will shorten the length of cross-examination. And we will have whatever we need to have ready to go, understanding the format we're doing this in now.

19 THE COURT: All right. See you in the morning.

20 (Adjourned to December 2, 2021 at 8:45 a.m.)

### INDEX OF EXAMINATION
Examination of: Page

JANE

4 Cross By Ms. Menninger 429

5 Redirect By Ms. III 600

6 MATT

7 Direct By Ms. III 630

8 DANIEL ALAN BESSELSEN

9 Direct By Mr. 653

10 Cross By Ms. Sternheim 668

## 11 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS

12 Exhibit No. Received

13 J-4 436

14 J-5 440

15 J-15 599

16 J-8 and J-9 600

### 17 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS

18 Exhibit No. Received

19 17 631

20 741 657

21 743 659

22 744 660

23 745 664

24

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